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I will get a new camera soon.I will be breeding him next year to my proven breeders (5 females I got from Garrick that are double het for Tremper patternless albino) Which one Tremper patternless albino was produced from from breeding them to the male I have that is double het for Tremper patternless albino Garrick said. I'm exited and hope to God that the breeding goes great.

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NICK

you really shouldnt breed geckos with deformities. its kinda, immoral, in my opinion.
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your head will collapse, but there's nothing in it, and you'll ask yourself, "where is my mind"

if you have AIM, IM me at chichandoCONrosa (i changed my SN)

Do you call a tail biting a deformity because it's not a deformity?
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NICK

if its an injury, then thats perfectly fine to breed, and good luck, you should get beautiful babies. but are you sure it is an injury, because MANY patternless are born with genetically kinked tails. it's ultimatly up to you if you will breed it, but it my opinion, it would be immoral to breed any genetic deformities.
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your head will collapse, but there's nothing in it, and you'll ask yourself, "where is my mind"

if you have AIM, IM me at chichandoCONrosa

Can an injury cause a kinked tail? If the tail were bent wouldn't that part just break off? Well in any case I agree with you, a gecko with a kinked tail would make a great pet but I wouldn't breed it. With something as valuable as a PA most of the people interested in buying offspring will probably be interested in breeding to and a kinked tail is a red flag for breeding, especially if breed another PA considering almost all are related in some way and inbreeding past akinked tail could eventually become dangerous and is definetly not healthy.

None of my geckos have deformities and are perfectly healthy.Judge not and you shall not be judged!
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The Lord Jesus Christ blesses you,
Nick

Please don't take this post as an ATTACK or anyhting of the sort, I'm just expressing my opinion based on information I've gotten from other people, I may be misinformed, but as of now, this is how I feel about the subject.....

You really shouldn't breed that guy. It's just going to breed a deformity into the species. Generally kinked-tails are GREAT pets, but the reason they're not as expensive as other Leos is because taht kinked-tail trait can, and WILL be passed on. Kinks aren't a cool new morph, they're a defect. I hate to sound so synical, but that would be like breeding a super model with a person with an inbred mountain hick. You just don't do it. Please for the sake of the species, don't breed the kink... Because even if your babies don't have kinks, it may get passed on, and do you really want to be held responsible for all leopard geckos having kinks in their tails within the next 20 years? I don't think so.... but I will hold YOU responsible. HAHAHA.... yeah.. I'm a dork. y'all have a good one. I know you'll do whatever you want, But thought I'd give you my 2 cents. take care, and please don't take offense to this post. He is a beautiful lizard (despite the kink), and I wish you 2 many happy days together.
Kev
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Kev
1.1.0 Tang Leopard Geckos: Marley, Mary
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko: Toad
0.1.0 Colombian Rainbow Boa: Rambo
1 Beta: Malificent
0.1.0 Tri Australian Shepard: Nelly

kinked tails have been proven to be able to be passed on to the next generation. Kinked tails are the most common in patternless morphs and breeders have tried to breed out this deformity, however, purly for the reason that the kinked tails are very unattractive. I don't believe any breeder has dubed this deformity in any way a health risk, its kind of like the "bug" eye trait, it is very unattractive but it does not pose a health problem to the gecko so the geckos are sold much cheaper but have no problem breeding. As you can see that gecko is very healthy and the only problem is the kinked tail and the only thing bad about it is that it is unattractive and if the trait passes on to the offspring, expect to have to sell them for much less then their market value. Also expect for some people to aviod from buying from you if you have an excessive amount of kinked tails available or if you post the male as the father. One way of improving your gene pool is to only breed that male once or only to unrelated animals, and then continusly bringing new blood into your line. Just remember that your Tremper Patternless Albinos were founded by a kinked tail male, now this may not be a problem but don't be upset IF you have a ton of kinked tailed babies and your having a hard time selling them and even their unkinked siblings.
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Bradley Baquial

I also have to agree that in all honesty I feel that even if this is a minor cosmetic defect primarily found in Patternless morphs, it is genetic. It is most likely due to line-breeding (inbreeding) when the morph was being developed. Personally, I feel that this flaw is something that breeders should try to eliminate, and geckos that display this characteristic should not be knowingly bred.

I have a few Patternless offspring this year with kinked tails, and they all were produced by the same first-time female. She does not have a kinked tail, but I will not breed her again. I feel that as a breeder, it is our responsibility to try to produce the highest quality animals we possibly can without line-breeding and perpetuating flaws.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

Excellent post, thank you for speaking up with firsthand experience on the subject.
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np
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Lovin' would be easy if your colors were like my dreams...

"but that would be like breeding a super model with a person with an inbred mountain hick"

You make it sound like we selectively breed people. A person could marry, and make love to anyone they please, so really your comparison is kinda not relevant.
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Josh
My Email

haha, ya, i laughed at that. its more like dog breeding, any good breeder will tell you that you should only breed flawless dogs. i feel the same way about geckos.
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your head will collapse, but there's nothing in it, and you'll ask yourself, "where is my mind"

if you have AIM, IM me at chichandoCONrosa (i changed my SN)

Just want to make sure regenerated tails cant be passed on right ? I have had leos for only a year and never new kinked tails could be passed on but want to make sure regenerated tails cant !

Thanks,
Nick
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Leopard Geckos

1.0 Tangerine
0.3.3 Hi-Yellow
1.1 Tremper Albino
0.1 Patternless het. Albino

Hopefully 1.2 Super Hypo Tangerine Baldy Carrot-tail from Kirks Herps !

haha, no, regenerated tails, nor any injuries, cant be passed down.
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your head will collapse, but there's nothing in it, and you'll ask yourself, "where is my mind"

if you have AIM, IM me at chichandoCONrosa (i changed my SN)

thanks alot, i was a little worried because i didnt know that kinked tails were passed down, i thought that was a injury so i was thinking maybe regenerated tails could do the same ! Just wanted to make sure !

Nick
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Leopard Geckos

1.0 Tangerine
0.3.3 Hi-Yellow
1.1 Tremper Albino
0.1 Patternless het. Albino

Hopefully 1.2 Super Hypo Tangerine Baldy Carrot-tail from Kirks Herps !

"but that would be like breeding a super model with a person with an inbred mountain hick"

"You make it sound like we selectively breed people. A person could marry, and make love to anyone they please, so really your comparison is kinda not relevant."

It has complete relivance.... Now you're saying that we don't selectively breed people? Of COURSE we do. yes, there are the exceptions. But for the most part, attractive people mate with other attractive people, and vice versa. It's not a CHOICE that people make, it's prety much just how it happens. Yes, really attractive couples can produce ugly kids, but it's fairly rare. But the tendency for unatractive people to produce unatractive children is very common. it's all in the genes. Therefore when I said that it would be like a supermodel mating with an inbred mountain hick, basically it meant, why on earth would you want to breed your almost perfect female leos, to a defective leo that may pass on a trait that will SERIOUSLY lower your offspring's value and overall asthetic? That's just my thoughts on the matter.
Kev
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Kev
1.1.0 Tang Leopard Geckos: Marley, Mary
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko: Toad
0.1.0 Colombian Rainbow Boa: Rambo
1 Beta: Malificent
0.1.0 Tri Australian Shepard: Nelly

No, we dont selectively breed people. I have seen attractive people with ugly people, it happens all the time. It's all about the individual person's preference. Saying that we selectively breed people is just asinine...
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Josh
My Email

So are you saying you and some others are breeding people and selling them that is wrong man.This is a Leopard Gecko forum man get it right.
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NICK

ok hold on her about this whole supermodel/hick crap. If we put this breeding situation as like they were human and so forth. And that only pretty people date pretty people. Its just riduculas. I know many people that are very handsome and very gorgeous women that dont really date people purelly on looks. Thats bull granted the sight off a great looking guy is wonderful but if they cant talk straight or dont know there butt hole from their mouth then there is a problem right. And for the leos. If you want to act like they are humans let them pick the next leo you purchase. Im sure your mother isnt or didnt pick your wife or girlfriend or whatever else it may be. So do it that way. For the kinked leos tails. I think they are actually kinda cute and give character to them. The one that she had named elvis I would have named thunder bolt lol...Its riduculas that people get that upset over a tail I would be more worried about major problems than minor ones and ones that are doing no harm.
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2 male leos: Winky HY & Lenny TangCT & 4 Female Leos: Sunshine Super tang, Serenity Tremper HY Jungle Albino, Skittle Hypo-Golden, and Banana Patternless.

Get over the whole supermodel/hick thing.... DON'T TAKE IT LITERALLY!

It was merely an analogy used to try to make a point, obviousaly nobody seemed to understand that, and decided to think that I am in the business of breeding humans for traits. I was merely saying that 2 beautiful people would make a beautiful kid, and a beautiful and an ugly person would have a kid that MAY be beautiful, but would always carry the genes for the uglier parent as well and may pass some of those traits on to their children... they're flawed, basically. now change the Pretty person to your female leos (that from what you say, are very nice looking), and the hick (with the flaws in appearance) with your new male. that was what I was trying to get you to figure out on your own, but it was obviousaly poorly written on my behalf.

Basicaly, breed a pretty leo to an ugly one, you may not have ugly kids, but they will always carry the trait. that point has HOPEFULLY been hammered into your head by now. Good luck. And if you decide to breed him anyway... good luck selling them to anyone who actually gives a rats ass about Leos. Maybe you could sell them to Petco!

Kev

p.s. sorry about the petco remark. No animal deserves taht ill-fate.
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Kev
1.1.0 Tang Leopard Geckos: Marley, Mary
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko: Toad
0.1.0 Colombian Rainbow Boa: Rambo
1 Beta: Malificent
0.1.0 Tri Australian Shepard: Nelly

Your the one getting everyone al upset. Who in the hell gives you the authoirity on who is cute or not... thats what I am saying. I know that you are just using it as a refernce, but some people to you may be ugly compared to what ever someone else thinks. Thats all I am saying. Like many people think normal leos are ugly, while others love them more than all the other ones that Breeders have created.
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2 male leos: Winky HY & Lenny TangCT & 4 Female Leos: Sunshine Super tang, Serenity Tremper HY Jungle Albino, Skittle Hypo-Golden, and Banana Patternless.

AN ANALOGY, that's all it was. I never said that the people I think are "cute" are people you think are cute. would it have been easier to word it, "Two people that the general concensus thinks are attractive, will GENERALLY have a baby that the majority of the population (deviod of certain members of society with different standards of attraction) will find to be cute as well".

I'm sorry that I did not word it "properly" but get over all the [Bleep] loopholes in what I said, and stand back, view it on a borader scale. Don't analyze every little detail of things I say. It was an analogy, or EXAMPLE. I'm sorry that I've caused confusion. I hope you find this to be slightly clearer for you. Also, what are your views on breeding a gecko with a kinked tail?

Kev
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Kev
1.1.0 Tang Leopard Geckos: Marley, Mary
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko: Toad
0.1.0 Colombian Rainbow Boa: Rambo
1 Beta: Malificent
0.1.0 Tri Australian Shepard: Nelly

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Edited for profanity.

Edited on September 2, 2003 at 20:18:32 by phwyvern.

I heard that there is a guy planning on running for governer of West Virginia and he wants to build a wall around the state. He said that to much of the work ethic and good genes are getting out of the state. He even cited the Berlin wall in his description saying that while the Berlin wall was only ten feet high this wall would need to be twenty feet because of all of the mountains.

I think it is just from another gecko I have some blizzards that were together and never had kinks then they bit some of them bit each others tails and the tails became kinks haven't you had this happen I even had at least 1 normal with the same experience I am finding out from Garrick if it was born with another and the kink information.Thanks for your kindness.
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NICK

Hey congrats.

people say it is.

Now I am playing devil's advocate here only because I think people react based on certain criteria and motivations.

If people were lining up and wanting to spend their hard earned (or freely gotten) money, do you think that breeders and others would be crying foul to this trait?

I for one do not think so.

What about tangerine, or any other trait that is different from the normal coloration? They supposedly do not cause difficulties with leos. Or do they?

Kink tail does not cause any known difficulties either. Whenever it is brought up though, everyone says "But what about what you can't see that could be wrong?" Well I say the same thing about tangerine, or carrot tail or what ever morph/trait? What if there is something going on inside the leos that we cannot see that affects the health in the long term, or is causing a weakening of the gene structure by these supposedly unharmful situations? All of this silently going on......

And silently being ignored because people are making money on them!!!!!!! You see, it is all a matter of perspective and how much money can be made.

Steven
Royal Gold Reptiles

IF there is something "going on" inside the geckos that we don't about, we cannot stop it. we CAN stop undesirable traits we do see, ie. kinked tails. the chances of something wrong being inside the geckos is slim, if vets have not noticed anything. albinism is a deformity, basically, but it is a desirable deformity, and though i would assume the original has a higher chance of inside deformities, i do not believe it did, because it would most likely have effected the gecko negatively. so far all the color morphs live just as happily as normals.
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your head will collapse, but there's nothing in it, and you'll ask yourself, "where is my mind"

if you have AIM, IM me at chichandoCONrosa

listen here it's only a flaw to you and whoever else is with you in this matter!NOT ME SO BACK OFF! I'll let you know the results of breeding if your still around.
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The Lord Jesus Christ blesses you,
Nick

Quote

"...we CAN stop undesirable traits we do see, ie. kinked tails. ... albinism is a deformity, basically, but it is a desirable deformity, ... so far all the color morphs live just as happily as normals."

Everything you say totally supports my premise and theory. There is no indication that kink tail has any negative effects on the life of the gecko. The only thing is someone decided it was a non-desirable deformatity, for whatever reason. Most likely that reason was it could not be used to make more money on the gecko with. If people had beat the door down to get them you can sure as heck bet it would have been marketed and the animals would have been sold for a premium.

Steven
Royal Gold Reptiles

Albinism is a genetic trait which appears after a single generation of breeding. A kinked tail generally occurs after years of inbreeding. Also Albinism isn't strictly speaking a deformity it is a mutation. Deformities can come about without any change in the alleles. My mom actually went to school with two black twins however one was albino. They looked almost exactly alike except that one appeared to be an extremely pale Caucasian person. One of my sisters on the other hand is mentally challenged, unlike genetic mutations physical deformities are often accompanied by mental disabilities. So a gecko with a kinked tail may also have several mental disorders we are not aware of. It has been proven that inbreeding causes insanity and anyone who believes they can find a Patternless albino that has not been inbreed is just naive. A kinked tail can also appear in other mutations and should be regarded as a warning sign that this is as far as inbreeding can be safely taken.

Everything you say is probably true.

The fact still remains that if people WANTED kinked tails that that means there would be a market for them, the kink would somehow be justified in some way and there would be a premium price paid for them!

That is the whole jist of my post.

Steven-RGR

I agree with Steve....I think everyone is getting too excited over a kinked tail. If he wants to breed it no big deal! Maybe they will be the newest type of gecko...The Curly Tailed Leopard Gecko. Besides she could have perfectly normal babies. Until he tries to breed them he will never know.

NO, it is not ok for him to breed it. while the kinked tail isn't so bad, it IS a result of inbreeding, and the group he wants to breed it too, is just inbreeding more. am i the only one who caught that he is breeding it to a group of DH PA's from Garrick, while the gecko is from Garrick too??? for all he knows, this gecko could be the son of the group he breeds it to.
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your head will collapse, but there's nothing in it, and you'll ask yourself, "where is my mind"

if you have AIM, IM me at chichandoCONrosa

Sure he can breed it. Its his leo not yours. There is nothing wrong with a bent tail. He may have a harder time selling them but someone will buy them. Plus, he wont know if the babies will have bent tails until he breeds them the first time. A bent tail can be caused by improper incubation. The only reason breeders don't breed the ones with bent tails is because they are harder to sell. Its all about the money for breeders! If bent tailed Leos became the rage all the breeders would be selling them for big bucks. Personally I think the normal Leos are the best looking ones. The only reason to buy a high priced morph is to breed it and make money.

Your just upset because you bought a new, probably expensive, rare morph with a deformity and now people are telling you that it cant be bred because of that deformity. Just like in your other post saying that everyone is going by hearsay and that they need proof, well where is your proof that it's not genetic?? And yes, many many patternless do have kinked tails. Its up to you whether or not you are going to breed it, but why take the chance of breeding this undesirable trait through your leos??
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Josh
My Email

why are you so into trying to condemn my breeding? I love the geckos it's not about the money you on the other hand it may be different to you your just plain stupid if you think you can buy life with money.
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NICK

if its not about money, DON'T breed it!!! you have a group of DH's, so you have animals to breed for pleasure. the only reason to breed it is for money.
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your head will collapse, but there's nothing in it, and you'll ask yourself, "where is my mind"

if you have AIM, IM me at chichandoCONrosa

I said nothing about money. It makes you look like you are in it for the money, just because you want to breed it, even though it has an undesirable trait. I also never said anything about life being bought with money. Where you are getting this is beyond me.
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Josh
My Email

Your really need to think before you type man. Your making yourself look like a fool. "my flawless geckos". I dont know what you are thinking, but IF you breed that kink tail they will not be flawless, even if it is genetics. Personally i think breeding AND selling the offspring would be bad, because your making the gene pool dirty. You should stop posting here and try thinking about what you are doing, not just to this generation of leos, but your kids generation too
Ryan
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People are arguing over a tail. Its up to the owner to breed, what we will do with out leos are; are own responsibilites. Not everyone on here argees with everyone else. Everyone has their own opinon and some jsut speak it more than others. But I am no expert but for albinos to first get started wouldnt they have to inbreed at some point to get certain triaits like "Blizzards", "Tangs" and etc. So by inbreeding those there could be flaws that we just cant visable see like a kinked tail .... right or am I wrong?
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2 male leos: Winky HY & Lenny TangCT & 4 Female Leos: Sunshine Super tang, Serenity Tremper HY Jungle Albino, Skittle Hypo-Golden, and Banana Patternless.

as far as the breeding goes-

While yes, every morph was established through inbreeding, the patternless has the obvious flaw that traces back to that. The patternless was the first real morph of leopard gecko to be established and sadly, proved that you can only go so far with inbreeding before undesireable traits or worse may show up.

There's a lot of speculation about what else a patternless with a kinked tail may be a carrier of genetically and this is part of my basis for the 'don't breed it' vote. There's no scientific proof of it yet, but I wouldn't want to find out.
And bringing it up here might only cause further debate. I might actually e-mail a few breeders about it tho, just to satisfy my curiousity. Maybe then I'd post my opinion here. But until then...I'd just be adding to rumors and speculations ^_^;

np
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I have to admit that Elvis is a very pretty gecko. Unfortunently since he has a kinked tail ( a know genetic flaw in leopard geckos) is would be rather unwise to breed him. I know you have already heard alot of this but please read....

Unfortunently gentici flaws are know to lower the resistance and viability of the gene pool, by breeding this animals you will be spreading this flaw, the babaies may not show it but they will defenently be carriers, which will end up being passed down to future generations. Which can eventually lead to more serious genetic flaws. Another thing to concider is that when you have 1 genetic flaw it is very possible there could be other ones, or it could be possible that he would have a "lower" or less "viable" genes. Which may in time produce more and more genetic flaws.

An example would be say, Dogs. There are soooooo many breed related health problems and genetic flaws. Many of these are very serious and can be life threatening or even fatal. Alot of times these flaws started out very small, and through more line breeding and passing down of the flaw many of these serious problems arose.

So you can see why is can be very dangerous or at the least very immoral or even cruel to breed in these flaws. Its for the sake of the leopard gecko race that you do not.

Leo

Its so much better when someone puts owrds next to what they mean rather just saying... its ugly dont breed it its like an ugly person. Ugly people shouldnt breed. I understand the whoel genetic stuff and understand that inbreeding is bad. BUt yet all started from that too. I am just saying that just cuz some leos are as cute as others that we shouldnt get rid of them.
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2 male leos: Winky HY & Lenny TangCT & 4 Female Leos: Sunshine Super tang, Serenity Tremper HY Jungle Albino, Skittle Hypo-Golden, and Banana Patternless.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with buying/owning/selling a Leo that has flaws... they need good homes and care just like any other one!!! Certainly a minor cosmetic flaw like a kinked tail is nothing that should concern anyone in regard to the health of the gecko or the pleasure it gives to have one, or the overall beauty of the morph!

BUT! In my honest opinion, as a RESPONSIBLE breeder I would not knowingly or intentionally breed any one of my geckos who has a genetic defect. I feel I have a professional obligation not only to my customers, but to the Leopard Gecko species itself to produce the highest quality offspring.

Leopard Gecko breeding should not be compared to human "breeding." People choose who they want to procreate with based on their own individual qualites and values. We do not euthanize "flawed" human beings, or promote ethnic cleansing... it is immoral! We love and care for imperfect offspring just the same.

But consider this example... Reputable AKC dog breeders are now starting to issue "limited" or "restricted" registration for their puppies when they know they are PET quality dogs. This means that you will not be able to get your dog resistered unless it is spayed or neutered. If you breed your dog anyway, you will not be able to register the litter.

What does this mean? Well, it means that only the BEST quality dogs will be allowed to reproduce and propagate the species. It does not mean that pet quality animals are not loved or wanted, it just means that to keep the integrity of the breed up to the highest possible standards, certain animals should not be allowed to breed. That's all.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

I agree, any animal with a "flaw" can make a wonderful pet, I actually have several animals that have defects, and are wonderful compainions but i will defenetly not breed them.

My heart and my head both tell me you have problems. I think for myself, not thought for by someone else. Sorry you feel that way
Ryan
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