Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Right, well as a few of you knew. I was off on a bit of a road trip around europe to pick up snakes. 12 countries, 4000km. Was just a lot lot easier than postage, or so i thought!! First part of trip was fine, i ended up in czech republic, and picked up 2.0 anery, 2.3 poss het anery, and 9 BCI. Then off to belgium thru the night, to pick up 2.7 poss hets new euro hypo line. All good so far. All had relevant papers and no problems customs. Then i tried to exit Germany to Denmark, and [bleep] hit the fan.

We were stopped by customs and asked if we had anything to show or declare. I immediately said that i had 23 snakes in the car, proceded to show them the relevant information, and paperwork for the snakes. All seemed ok, they just wanted to check the rules regarding CITES II animals etc.

One customs officer then informed my that maybe i didnt have the right paperwork. And we were put in police cells, me and the two companions with me for the trip, oh and all the snakes, as i refused that they stayed in the car, due to the temperature. Was about 9pm at night.

Once the big customs officer came (who admitted he knew nothing about animals, and was in drugs and alcohol enforcement) he informed me that i was a commercial dealer and that nobody could want 23 snakes, i tried to tell him the whole story but he did not listen at all, just threatened to hold me longer in the cells. imagine trying to explain why you need poss hets to a non snake person!!!

We were told i could not take the snakes with me, and they are now the property of the german authorities. Seeing we were not going to get them back that night, i finished signing papers, and we continued on thru sweden, as we had to make a boat back to finland. I was told the snakes went to a reptile rescue place in Hamburg, and 10hrs after this happened, i was able to contact them , and feel happy they know how to care for my snakes.

The authorities let me go, with no bail, as he knew i would be back to contest this. I was told i will have to be back in germany in a few weeks to go to court.

Now the papers i had with me with breeders statements, saying where the snakes had come from, all the breeder information, sex ratio, CITES numbers for the parents etc etc. I believe from all the information gathered before this trip that i was in the right, the breeders believe i was in the right, as does every snake person in europe.

Under my understanding, you do not even need paperwork, for CITES II CB animals, but i still had all the relevant stuff. To travel thru any countries inside the European Union. And i never left the EU.

I have contacted a German Lawyer, and in his small knowledge of the case, he believes i have been screwed aswell. And i hope to get this sorted out soon. EIther way my snakes are in someone else care, and im regarding as under suspicion by the German Government.

The fact that the snakes wernt even bought in germany pisses me off aswell. Im reallu unsure what to do now, and any responses or support will be much appreciated. During the interview, when i had not slept for over 20hrs, i felt pressured into signing documents, i asked for Marco, one of the guys travelling with me, to be there as a translator as he spoke German, this was refused, i also asked if Marco could proof read my statement, as i was tired, piss off and pretty upset, and wanted hinm to check i had not written anything bad. And finally i asked to ring a finnish lawyer, i was told i could only have a german one. So they then gave me a german phonebook in german!!! and told me to find one.!! I also asked to make at least one phone call, as i believed this was my right, i was told i could not, to anyone other than a german lawyer!!!

i not a happy camper at the moment;(

David
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Dave

2.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Paid for, but stuck in europe somewhere hope to get from next german show
1.0 Anery BRB
0.1 66% poss het anery BRB
2.5 66% poss het new european line hypo

Wow, that really sucks, does not sound right at all. Sounds a lot like they knew the value of what you had and simply used their official powers to take them. Hope it all works out for you and best of luck getting your snakes back. Keep us posted!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

yeah cheers, dont worry will keep you posted, mainly cos i want you to see the patterns on these poss het hypos. Its a very stuffed situation, especially seeing the snakes are stuck in germany. If they were stuck here in finland, i could deal with it. But jesus, i pretty stuffed in the head about it now. For once in my life i abide by every bloody rule, and this happens!!!
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Dave

2.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Paid for, but stuck in europe somewhere hope to get from next german show
1.0 Anery BRB
0.1 66% poss het anery BRB
2.5 66% poss het new european line hypo

I feel for you man. I had a similar experience in Canada once, but it was with tobacco, not with snakes. They couldn't believe five people would smoke that much in two weeks, but they didn't know us very well.

Dave,
....You do need CITES paperwork to cross international borders with any CITES II snake, whether it was CB or not. The customs people are not going to know the difference between CB and WC and there is actually no distinction between CB and WC in the CITES treaty. The same thing that has happened to you so far would happen to me if I tried to bring WC Boas in from Mexico or take CB Rainbow Boas into Canada. The final outcome would be that the snakes would be confiscated for good and I would be paying a LARGE fine. What I do not know anything about is how the EU interprets and enforces the CITES treaty. It does look like you have found that different EU countries are interpreting and enforcing it differently. This may just be a case of different customs officers not knowing much about the subject. I would think that even though the EU was formed to ease trade problems it would not abrogate the CITES treaty that each of the countries within the EU had previously signed. If I was you I would look into which German government entity is responsible for CITES compliance. My guess is that it will be the German equivalent to our US Fish and Wildlife. A German lawyer will be able to figure this out but perhaps take some time and charge you a pile of money for doing the research that you could do quickly do yourself with the help of an interpreter.
Good luck,
Jeff

>>Right, well as a few of you knew. I was off on a bit of a road trip around europe to pick up snakes. 12 countries, 4000km. Was just a lot lot easier than postage, or so i thought!! First part of trip was fine, i ended up in czech republic, and picked up 2.0 anery, 2.3 poss het anery, and 9 BCI. Then off to belgium thru the night, to pick up 2.7 poss hets new euro hypo line. All good so far. All had relevant papers and no problems customs. Then i tried to exit Germany to Denmark, and [bleep] hit the fan.
>>
>>We were stopped by customs and asked if we had anything to show or declare. I immediately said that i had 23 snakes in the car, proceded to show them the relevant information, and paperwork for the snakes. All seemed ok, they just wanted to check the rules regarding CITES II animals etc.
>>
>>One customs officer then informed my that maybe i didnt have the right paperwork. And we were put in police cells, me and the two companions with me for the trip, oh and all the snakes, as i refused that they stayed in the car, due to the temperature. Was about 9pm at night.
>>
>>Once the big customs officer came (who admitted he knew nothing about animals, and was in drugs and alcohol enforcement) he informed me that i was a commercial dealer and that nobody could want 23 snakes, i tried to tell him the whole story but he did not listen at all, just threatened to hold me longer in the cells. imagine trying to explain why you need poss hets to a non snake person!!!
>>
>>We were told i could not take the snakes with me, and they are now the property of the german authorities. Seeing we were not going to get them back that night, i finished signing papers, and we continued on thru sweden, as we had to make a boat back to finland. I was told the snakes went to a reptile rescue place in Hamburg, and 10hrs after this happened, i was able to contact them , and feel happy they know how to care for my snakes.
>>
>>The authorities let me go, with no bail, as he knew i would be back to contest this. I was told i will have to be back in germany in a few weeks to go to court.
>>
>>Now the papers i had with me with breeders statements, saying where the snakes had come from, all the breeder information, sex ratio, CITES numbers for the parents etc etc. I believe from all the information gathered before this trip that i was in the right, the breeders believe i was in the right, as does every snake person in europe.
>>
>>Under my understanding, you do not even need paperwork, for CITES II CB animals, but i still had all the relevant stuff. To travel thru any countries inside the European Union. And i never left the EU.
>>
>>I have contacted a German Lawyer, and in his small knowledge of the case, he believes i have been screwed aswell. And i hope to get this sorted out soon. EIther way my snakes are in someone else care, and im regarding as under suspicion by the German Government.
>>
>>The fact that the snakes wernt even bought in germany pisses me off aswell. Im reallu unsure what to do now, and any responses or support will be much appreciated. During the interview, when i had not slept for over 20hrs, i felt pressured into signing documents, i asked for Marco, one of the guys travelling with me, to be there as a translator as he spoke German, this was refused, i also asked if Marco could proof read my statement, as i was tired, piss off and pretty upset, and wanted hinm to check i had not written anything bad. And finally i asked to ring a finnish lawyer, i was told i could only have a german one. So they then gave me a german phonebook in german!!! and told me to find one.!! I also asked to make at least one phone call, as i believed this was my right, i was told i could not, to anyone other than a german lawyer!!!
>>
>>i not a happy camper at the moment;(
>>
>>David
>>-----
>>Dave
>>
>>2.2 Normal BRBs
>>0.1 Anery BRB
>>2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
>>1.1 het hypo BRB
>>
>>Paid for, but stuck in europe somewhere hope to get from next german show
>>1.0 Anery BRB
>>0.1 66% poss het anery BRB
>>2.5 66% poss het new european line hypo

Oh my! That is AWFUL!! Funny how you try to follow the rules, and it bites you in the a$$. I really hope you get all of them back. Please keep us updated on your progress!
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Aubrey Ross

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