Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, I broke my big tank I had my western male in (~18". The tank was 36" wide/18" width. I have an 18"/18" tank here and was wondering if it was too small for him. I've heard of people keeping males in 10 gallons which would be pretty much the same thing except for it's a rectangle. Also, how would I make a thermal gradient with something like this? Small UTH??

I would think this would be ok. For a gradient I would suggest and undertank heater.

How bad did you break it? When I was young and poorer I routinely collected aquariums and simply put clear shipping tape of cracks. It's not really sterilizable, but it'll get you through.

I strongly recommend getting at least a 20 gal long tank for a replacement, in order to have a proper thermogradient. A new tank costs a lot less than a single visit to the veternarian, so it's easy to justify having the proper tank for an animal in order to AVOID the costs of the veternarian. It just is not possible to have a proper thermogradient in 10 gal tank.

Here's something I wrote up a while ago about using UTHs.

Hognoses are exclusively diurnal. This means they are most used to basking in the sun in the early morning. I think it is very important to mimic the greatest natural variable, the sun. Therefore, the primary heat source for a captive hognoses should be a fixture that produces both light and heat (a light bulb basically).

Why not use under tank heaters?

A large portion of the popular captive herps are nocturnal at least seasonally. Under tank heaters are great for these animals that intuitively will rest on rocks or other structures that have absorbed heat during the day and are getting off the heat at night. For these animals, deriving heat from below them is perfectly natural. For hognoses however, never being nocturnal means that they always get their heat from above. My theory for the sources of heat for hognoses is supported by the monumental work by Dwight Platt in 1969 on the natural history of Western and Eastern hognoses. He clearly states that hognoses burrow DOWN to escape high heat in the late summer months and enter a quasi-estivation state. To me, it is clear that hognoses in captivity should be allowed to go UP to get warm, and go DOWN to get cool. The ability for a captive herp to thermoregulate their own body temperature cannot be emphasized enough. They should be able to get as warm as they like, and get as cool as they like.

This discrepancy isn't necessarily going to kill a hognoses, but in the effort to optimize captive conditions for health and behavior, this should be something to consider and is one of the easiest things to change. Under tank heaters will certainly suffice for some hognoses, but I positively don't think they are ideal for hognoses. They certainly have their place as a supplementary heat source, especially for nighttime heat.

Despite the popular consensus, thermal preference measurements in wild snakes shows that hognoses have a preferred body temperature in the low tended 90s.
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Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society online store
http://www.cafepress.com/vaherpsociety

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

Fascinating reading and glad you posted it.

Against all advice, I think I've mentioned this, I'm going with a 90g tank. Your information - for me - confirms my decision is the correct one. For me keeping a snake in a 10g or a plastic sweater box is cruel. While initially my little guy may be a bit nervous in his home I don't believe this will be a forever thing. Not given in nature they have the entire outdoors and don't seem to suffer from stress.

With a bigger tank temperature gradient(s) will be easier to have and I'll be able to have dedicated zones of wet, grassland and woodland.

Thanks for your post.

It's great to know that someone appreciates it!

I have never witnessed, nor have I ever understood, the advice against using large containers. I am afraid that a lot of what we think we know about reptilian behavior is seriously flawed from our anthropomorphic perspective. Although I will not go as far as saying that sweater boxes are cruel, for the typical pet owner, we should definitely aspire to much better things. Whether or not the periods of fasting that is routinely seen in hognoses is natural, I really think that the lack of proper temperature gradients and insufficient heat are to blame for some of the problems. Along the same lines, I have included my thoughts about the benefits of full spectrum lighting.

I look forward to seeing pictures and hearing about how your large tank has worked out.
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Full Spectrum Lighting.
By far, the most undervalued component of captive husbandry, and it is true for hognoses as well. In general, snakes do not need a source of UVB lighting that is necessary for the synthesis of vitamin D3 in the skin, which in turn is necessary for metabolizing calcium. Instead, they get all of their vitamin D from the livers of the whole prey they regularly consume.
However, there is another component of the ultraviolet spectrum that may play important roles in the health and behavior of captive snakes, especially in an exclusively diurnal snake like a hognose. UVA is supposedly beneficial for the coloring and behavior of captive herps.

I had the fortunate experience of working with a veterinarian who was not only herp savvy, but was very much an enthusiast at one time. He continually emphasized the need for ultraviolet lighting for an entire herp collection. He claimed he had a finicky milksnake 20 years ago before they were popular in the pet trade. It would consistently refuse to eat without the benefit of ultraviolet, full spectrum lighting. In a few instances, it would actually spit out a half consumed mouse if the lights were turned off! This only illustrates the point that ultraviolet lighting for captive snakes maybe underutilized and may significantly benefit some of those problem feeders.

I am not recommending dropping $80 on a mercury vapor bulb, I think things can be done much more economically. While you're out buying an incandescent bulb and fixture to switch over on your hognose, it wouldn't hurt to invest in one of the cheap "full spectrum" incandescent sold at pet stores. Advertising they are full spectrum is a total lie, as it is physically impossible for an incandescent to produce UVB light. However, they do produce plenty of UVA, and they do it rather cheaply. Perhaps you have some florescent light fixtures (which really aren't good for much compared to mercury vapor bulbs) for others in your collection that you can cycle over to the hognoses once they have "expired" after six months or so.

Everything you need to know about UV lighting.
http://www.austinsturtlepage.com/Articles/guidetolighting.htm

Other helpful links
http://www.reptilesdownunder.com/reptile/enclosure/uvlighting.php
http://www.anapsid.org/uvtable.html
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Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society online store
http://www.cafepress.com/vaherpsociety

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

Sadly, I don't have a camera of any sort. But if you live in the Twin Cities area I'd be happy to show you Kenabec's home - when I get it done. I do have quite a bit o'time as he's currently just a wee egglette.

Thanks for the lighting info. I'm going to copy that for reference as well as your first post. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. And I know just enuff to get myself in a lot of trouble. It only stands to reason full spectrum lighting or a combination of two or three types is going to be needed to keep an animal healthy. I use different spectrums - one being daylight - on my aquariums to benefit both fish and plants. I has yet had no info on lighting but knew I was going to approximate daylight in someway, shape or form. Too, I'll prolly take Kenabec outside sometimes in the summer. I do Ripley and Winnie at the park. They LOVE to sleep in the sun on the picnic tables. It's good for them and they just love it.

Snakes, like any other creature, need excercise. I'd guess hognoses going off feed could even be due to lack of excercise. I'll see how Kenabec's appetite is with room to ramble. I do know keeping a snake on only one type of substrate is not good for them. It doesn't allow the snake to use his/her muscles in different ways and keep them toned. Having various substrates with different textures causing the snake to use his muscles in different ways to negotiate his area is better than only one type of substrate.

My place gets hotter than a firecracker in the summer. During that time I probably won't have a less hot heating area, but actually increase depth of strata so Kenabec can burrow down. I appreciate very much you sharing that knowledge. It's going to help me keep Kenabec happier and healthier. How I'm going to do it, I've no idea since it will be inside vs. actually outside with a decrease in temp as you dig into dirt. I'll figure out something.

I really appreciate your ideas, thoughts, info and opinions. Thanks!

I see you won't be coming over anytime soon to look at Kenabec's setup... Being in Virginia and all.

I also noticed you're part of that State's Herp Society. The people nay-saying me the most regarding the "huge, overly large" cage I've gotten for Kenabec are the members of the MN Herp Society.

It is refreshing and comforting to know someone, somewhere, in some Herp Society agrees with me!

There are some species, and definitely some individual snakes, that seem to get off track in large cages. I'm not talking 20 gal vs 10 gal, but more like what you are looking at. When I say off track, I mean the snake does not feed and acts like it is near escape. Rosies are such a snake that is prone to this (some of them anyway.)

I've tried cornsnakes, gophersnakes and Cal kingsnakes each in a large cage, and they thrived. These species easily settled in in big cages.

I'm curious as all heck as to how hognose will behave in a giant cage. Keep the forum informed what happens. I give mine roomy cages but not large.

I also notice my hognose will bask at higher temps than many other colubrids I've kept. I have a shed outdoors that can get quite hot during the day. Western hognose and ball pythons do great in there. I like that about hogs, they can take a wide range of temps (hot days, cool nights). And they look like rattlesnakes when coiled up. Geez I love that. Some of mine do that slow-tongue flick thing too just like a big rattlesnake. I get the rattler look without the fangs. Well, front fangs anyway. Even my meanest hognose is a marshmallow once picked up. Like that about them too.
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Mark

>>There are some species, and definitely some individual snakes, that seem to get off track in large cages. I'm not talking 20 gal vs 10 gal, but more like what you are looking at. When I say off track, I mean the snake does not feed and acts like it is near escape. Rosies are such a snake that is prone to this (some of them anyway.)
>>
>>I've tried cornsnakes, gophersnakes and Cal kingsnakes each in a large cage, and they thrived. These species easily settled in in big cages.
>>
>>I'm curious as all heck as to how hognose will behave in a giant cage. Keep the forum informed what happens. I give mine roomy cages but not large.
>>
>>I also notice my hognose will bask at higher temps than many other colubrids I've kept. I have a shed outdoors that can get quite hot during the day. Western hognose and ball pythons do great in there. I like that about hogs, they can take a wide range of temps (hot days, cool nights). And they look like rattlesnakes when coiled up. Geez I love that. Some of mine do that slow-tongue flick thing too just like a big rattlesnake. I get the rattler look without the fangs. Well, front fangs anyway. Even my meanest hognose is a marshmallow once picked up. Like that about them too.
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>>Mark
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Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society online store
http://www.cafepress.com/vaherpsociety

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

Very informative! I used to have TONS of tanks laying around. I have since sold/given away all of my herps and tanks. So my lone hognose is the only reptile I have left I kept one 10 gallon so I could use it to hold him while cleaning etc. But I was having trouble setting it up with the proper gradient with a light. The UTH worked good, but it makes sense on how they burrow to escape the heat, and that would be completely opposite for him in that situation. The crack isn't terrible, but it's unsightly. I'll keep him in it (the bigger tank), until I find a suitable replacement.

On another note, what substrate are you using for them to burrow?

Me?

I'm going to use some sand, polished river rocks, bark chips, leaves, and this rabbit stuff that's timothy and/or meadow grasses.

Not too much sand so Kenabec doesn't eat too much of it. But sand would be a good 'kitty litter' to soak up the watery poos. Not to mention I want as many different strata/surfaces as possible for Kenabec to slither over/under.

Larger rocks for him to crawl over but can't dig under - small fist sized on the floor of the tank. Natural logs.

Ripley, the park's bull snake, seems to always poo in corners. I'll watch Kenabec and if he does, too, will put more sand there than elsewhere. Will be easy to scoop with a kitty litter scooper.

Sounds good! About the large cages too, I was told that it wasn't advisable to put a hognose in a large enclosure. However that one he's in right now (with the crack) is a 70 gallon. He does completely fine although he doesn't move around much haha.