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Breeding Loan Protocol?

ExecutiveReptiles Jun 02, 2008 10:04 AM

Just for fun, Since I have never done a Breeding Loan before, I was curious for those of you who have, what protocol do you follow, I can imagine in this day and age with the massive amounts of money potentially involved, from collections to offspring, are people still casual with breeding loans? I can imagine things could be thoroughly laid out as to cenerios, what if's..ect..ect.. do people really go to that length? Are actual signed Contracts involved?

I strickly do this for fun, but would like to do a breeding loan, but herpetoculture has MASSIVELY changed over the last 10 years, and I was curious for those who do or have done breeding loans, what was/is the procedure...I know Males are usually sent to females...

Just curious...

David
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

Replies (17)

Sun_King Jun 02, 2008 11:47 AM

Normally the litter is split up 50/50% unless agreed upon otherwise. Make sure you get everything in writing in case any problems arise. I have thought about doing it in the past but never have.

Joe

ExecutiveReptiles Jun 02, 2008 12:17 PM

I have heard some people go as far as doing this...You pick one then I pick one, You pick two, then I pick two, ect..ect..

Some methods get pretty involved....I guess one could look at it as at 50/50 neither party would have an access of mouths to feed and house....it would be equal.

Thanks for the reply....
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

BNixon Jun 02, 2008 11:53 AM

Breeding loans are good. They can allow people to produce more animals or new animals to add to their collection. Also sometimes you may not have enough males for your girls or however it pans out and breeding loans can also get you to meet new friends. I have 3 of my boas out on breeding loan currently with 2 different people and all is going well expecting all three litters within the next few weeks.

I used a breeding loan agreement I found years back and saved. It is handy and very detailed. Here is a link to it from my site.

www.constrictorsofeden.com/BreedingLoanAgreement.pdf
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Brandon Nixon

ExecutiveReptiles Jun 02, 2008 12:19 PM

Thanks....That link is pretty informative, pretty much covers all things, Thanks for the reply.
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

raybueno Jun 02, 2008 11:56 AM

First and foremost you need to trust the other person. We wrote up a simple contract stating snake a will be bred to snake b. We also stated that if there was a successful litter all animals would be split evenly between sex and morphs. Any odd animals are either co-owned or sold and the profits split 50/50.

Hope this helps.
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Ray & Dustin Bueno
Bueno Brothers Reptiles
www.buenobros.com

ExecutiveReptiles Jun 02, 2008 12:26 PM

Thanks for the reply, Thats interesting...Sexing them all and dividing them up by sex and morph....So say...you produced Anery's and Het Anery's....at a sex ratio of 4.6...but the morph ratio was 6.4 (Anery(.)Het Anery)...lets see.... how that would work...?

Each party would get 2 Males and 3 femles...but on the morph side...it would be 3 Anery's and 2 Het Anery's right?

I guess it could get really detailed if someone wanted to get that detailed...

Thanks for the reply...

I and I agree....I am lucky in that I trust the party I am going to be dealing with, so no worries on my end....
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

rainbowsrus Jun 02, 2008 12:22 PM

Hey David,

I've done a few and each time there was a breeding loan contract tailored to that loan. Sometimes one animal is more valuable than another and not necessarily a 50/50 split. IMO signatures are not necessary as long as you have emails with attached document where both parties clearly state agreement.

Each contract has info about who pays for what, sick animals, possible loss of animals, who gets bred, and IMO one of the most important sections is a specific plan for division of offspring.

50/50 is great and if the litter comes out that way even better. But what about odd numbers? I personally like to set up offspring divisions so each owner has the opportuinity to come out slightly ahead. But as the complexity of the possible outcomes increases there may be difficulties there. For example one loan I did was one of my hypo males to a huge normal female. Sadly she did not take. But if there had been a litter, the distribution was planned to be four groups, male/female Hypo/normal. For the hypo groups, I was to get first pick and alternate until all babies were gone giving me two chances for "extra" babies. For normal babies the other party was to go first giving him two chances as well. Yeah, the more desireable "extra's" would have been mine, we both agreed that was fair since those were my genes into the pool.

Even a simple anery het albino x albino x anery would have 8 groups though, four phenotypoes each with two sexes and could get sticky for distribution and might be easier to go with a simple sexual distribution and one party goes first on females and the other goes first on males.

Whatever the plan is, having it in writing is key, that way several months later when there are babies there is a plan in place. Of course at that time you can make alterations based on the actual outcomes if both parties agree.

One more clause I like to add is one for "odd" babies where both parties agree to some set of rules if something new or unexpected arises.

Lastly a clause that BOTH parties agree to third party arbitration should any disputes arise.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

ExecutiveReptiles Jun 02, 2008 01:00 PM

Thanks for the reply...

I like the last part of both parties agreeing to use a third party for disagreemnts....
-----
Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

Bighurt Jun 02, 2008 08:58 PM

>>Hey David,
>>
>>I've done a few and each time there was a breeding loan contract tailored to that loan. Sometimes one animal is more valuable than another and not necessarily a 50/50 split. IMO signatures are not necessary as long as you have emails with attached document where both parties clearly state agreement.
>>
>>Each contract has info about who pays for what, sick animals, possible loss of animals, who gets bred, and IMO one of the most important sections is a specific plan for division of offspring.
>>
>>50/50 is great and if the litter comes out that way even better. But what about odd numbers? I personally like to set up offspring divisions so each owner has the opportuinity to come out slightly ahead. But as the complexity of the possible outcomes increases there may be difficulties there. For example one loan I did was one of my hypo males to a huge normal female. Sadly she did not take. But if there had been a litter, the distribution was planned to be four groups, male/female Hypo/normal. For the hypo groups, I was to get first pick and alternate until all babies were gone giving me two chances for "extra" babies. For normal babies the other party was to go first giving him two chances as well. Yeah, the more desireable "extra's" would have been mine, we both agreed that was fair since those were my genes into the pool.
>>
>>
>>Even a simple anery het albino x albino x anery would have 8 groups though, four phenotypoes each with two sexes and could get sticky for distribution and might be easier to go with a simple sexual distribution and one party goes first on females and the other goes first on males.
>>
>>
>>Whatever the plan is, having it in writing is key, that way several months later when there are babies there is a plan in place. Of course at that time you can make alterations based on the actual outcomes if both parties agree.
>>
>>One more clause I like to add is one for "odd" babies where both parties agree to some set of rules if something new or unexpected arises.
>>
>>Lastly a clause that BOTH parties agree to third party arbitration should any disputes arise.
>>-----

Where do I sign.....?

That's a well thought out plan Dave... I like the third party arbitration. I wonder if anyone just settles on a stud fee with an odd baby clause...

Cheers
-----
Jeremy Payne
Owner
JB Reptile
www.jbreptile.com **Coming Soon**

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Motley Het Anery **In aquisition**
1.0 Snow "Khal" RTB
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.0 Ghost RTB **coming soon**
1.0 Hypomelenistic RTB
1.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0.1 Child

geckocrazy Jun 02, 2008 12:25 PM

I also depends on who is housing them. Also if ur breeding a normal to a motley(just used as an exemple) genrally the owner of the motley would get pic of the litter and more than half.
There is so many ways you can do this. As stated above you must first trust the other parties invovled. For example i have a female out on loan with a very good friend of mine there is no contract and i'll probably end up only taking one or two animals from that litter and trading him for other babies from different litters of his. Just make sure both parties are happy with whatever is done. There is always those what ifs that can happen also. For example ur animals gets sick or even dies then what?
Or something new and incredible pops out then what? Just my two cents!!

ExecutiveReptiles Jun 02, 2008 01:02 PM

Best of luck with your breeding loans, and I like how you are going to trade the other party for snakes from other litters, thats a great way to build up a nice collection from just a breeding loan.

Thanks for the reply...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

boaphile Jun 02, 2008 12:52 PM

The way I have normally done it is this:

The "loaner" and "breeder" alternate picks with the breeder picking first until they are all gone. Nothing to sell and split. Nothing to have controversy over. It's nice and simple. Yes, if there is an odd number, the breeder gets one more than the loaner. Yes, if there are morphs involved and there is an odd number of morphs, the breeder will get one more morph than the other person. That's just luck and sometimes it happens there is an odd one. Sometimes not. But knowing that from the outset makes it easy and understood.

However, anybody can agree to anything they want. There is no hard and fast rule. Sometimes I have had an agreement that if a "freak" baby pops up, that would be co-owned. You can do anything you want but be assured, breeder loans are great for breaking up a perfectly good friendship if it isn't perfectly clear what the agreement is. That's why I like it when it's simple and impossible to interpret differently.
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Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

ExecutiveReptiles Jun 02, 2008 12:58 PM

Thats kind of how I was looking at breeding loans, more of a casual, laid back...simple.

And I like how you differentiate the "Breeder" and the "Loaner"....and how the Breeder is entitled to the extra, I like that idea. Since its really them that are carring for and really doing all the work....

Thanks for the reply...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

boaphile Jun 02, 2008 01:52 PM

The "Breeder" is the person doing the actual breeding. The "Loaner" is the person doing the loaning.
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Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

remreps Jun 02, 2008 02:24 PM

Wouldn't it work better if you let the snake do the actual breeding?

rainbowsrus Jun 02, 2008 02:28 PM

to add the "personal" touch!!!


-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

OKReptileRescue Jun 02, 2008 08:59 PM

I did a breeding loan on a fantastic citrus beardie once.
A friend I'd known for 3 years, who was also a foster home for my rescue -- which is how we got involved in the first place.
We had a great friendship and great relationship--- he'd had many many many beardies, corn snakes, and boas that he'd fostered for me before, got them healthy, whatever--
Anyway-- I'd had this citrus female for 4 years-- got her at a show, grew her up-- she was the most amazing yellow EVER!!

I loaned her to him with the 50/50 agreement--- my beardie was valued higher than his male but he was the breeder-- so we agreed on 50/50.

She layed 12 strange eggs--- they were oddly shaped, and somewhat discolored.
by hatching time there were 7 left.
He agreed to give me 5. I told him I didn't need 5 and that i'd be happy with 3 or 4-- which is more like what we'd agreed on in the first place.
I had also spent 350 $$ on AP cages for some boas. I was going to trade him one boa cage for a vision cage made for emeralds (like I needed) and I was putting up the cash for the 2nd-- and he would pay me back, little by little, as he had money. Helping a friend out.
Then 3 days after the beardies hatched, he got a huge workmans comp settlement (upwards of 200K)
the next day (day 4 after hatching) -- I woke up with a strange feeling, so i called to see how things were going. He said they were doing fine and asked about the cages. I said i hadnt heard anything.
A few days after that, I called the cage company, he had changed the shipping address to his address instead of mine-- which i thought was strange.
I called and asked if i could come get my part of the babies, and he said I had to get the cages to him first and that he'd take 200$ for his cage--- which was 25$ higher than originally agreed.

blah blah blah
He says I can't have my babies until he gets cages, and now i can't have my female back either-- as well as the 3 animals that are property of the rescue- that were in his foster care. He said that the 2 beardies he was fostering COULD BE GRAVID so he wasnt giving them up and the red tail he was fostering COULD BE GRAVID BUT NEEDED A 1200$ SURGERY THAT WAS SCHEDUALED FOR THE NEXT WEEK.

I about died! I had been over there at LEAST 3-4 times a week-- my fostered animals were always in seperate cages, and away from the other animals he had.

In the end, he is now breeding stolen animals, and a very sick red tail.
My breeding loan left me minus the 400$ for the female citrus dragon, minus the $ I would have made from babies, and minus the stolen animals from my rescue.

This is someone I would have trusted with my life, until he got a big ol' check to blow-- he decided he didn't need friends any more-- there are 4 petstores here locally that wont buy from him, and a multitude of PO'd people.

the point is, is that no matter what--- you really should be more cautious than you think you should ever be. I would have had NO idea he would behave this way. I was screwed b/c I was nice--- now i'm out $ and the rescue's animals and there is NOTHING I can do about it.

Be cautious, have fun, and put this stuff on PAPER!! take it to kinkos-- notarize it-- whatever!!! each of you keep a copy-- and just please, please be more careful than I was-- as this experience has ruined my faith in other people. I immediatly pulled the other 9 animals I had out in foster homes-- they all understood what brief info i gave them about the others being stolen-- but I now operate with zero foster homes, and will never do another breeding loan-- the 200 $ i would have made-- was not worth the mess it caused.

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

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