Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I went ahead and cut a small flap on all 9 eggs and lo and behold no Albinos!!!!

Now I am new to the Ball Python scene and what are the chances of breeding a supposely 100% Het Albino to a Albino Male and get no Albinos. Should I try again next year? or did I just missed the odds!?

Well at least now I have 100% het Albinos for sure!!!!!
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Thomas Sierra

if your talking about the babys, arnt they 66%?

>>if your talking about the babys, arnt they 66%?

The female was sold to me as a 100% Het Albino, I used my Albino Male and she laid 9 eggs and none were albinos!!!!

So at least the babies are 100% Albino because of the Male being a Albino!!!
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Thomas Sierra

Great attitude about finding out your supposed het albino ISN'T a het albino. And I'm being honest. Sorry.

>>Great attitude about finding out your supposed het albino ISN'T a het albino. And I'm being honest. Sorry.

Thank you!

I am upset! But what can I do! That is why I did not use the Het Albino Male that I bought with her. I was just not sure about the dealings. Even thou I got good feedback about the people I bought them from. They were known to be good people.

Even if I got taken! I have met some really good people on this site and have done great dealing with them!!! Life goes on.

My Motto" What goes around, comes around"
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Thomas Sierra

I would not "write off" the female as being normal. Sometimes you just get bad odd's. Breed her again to a visual and see what happens. Two season's in a row with no visuals then I would consider that you did not get what you paid for. Good luck.
Bruce Delles c/o Twin Cities Reptiles

Link

>>I would not "write off" the female as being normal. Sometimes you just get bad odd's. Breed her again to a visual and see what happens. Two season's in a row with no visuals then I would consider that you did not get what you paid for. Good luck.
>>Bruce Delles c/o Twin Cities Reptiles

I've never not produced a visual from a visual to a het. But I'm sure it can happen. Two years and nothing, I'd say it's not good.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

did you put any other males in with the female?

>>did you put any other males in with the female?

No only the Albino Male!!!!!!
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Thomas Sierra

So sorry to hear that.

The odds of missing on 9 of 9 50% chances are 1 in 512. You could just be the unlucky 0.2% but mom certainly does seem doubtful for being a het now. How big was the female when you got her? Any chance she was carrying retained sperm from a male other than your albino? I thought I read something about a paternity test for snakes so if it is finally available you could test a baby or two if you have any doubts.

>>So sorry to hear that.
>>
>>The odds of missing on 9 of 9 50% chances are 1 in 512. You could just be the unlucky 0.2% but mom certainly does seem doubtful for being a het now. How big was the female when you got her? Any chance she was carrying retained sperm from a male other than your albino? I thought I read something about a paternity test for snakes so if it is finally available you could test a baby or two if you have any doubts.

When I got her she was only about 700grams, that was in 5/2005. last year she was about 1000grams, not a very good eater, so I did try to breed her. She locked up with my Albino Male from 10/2007 until about 3/2008.
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Thomas Sierra

First let me say I think you have a great attitude and that is very nice to see-you have been very realistic, and of course no one wants to have a result that wasn't what he/she expected after all the hard and good work you did.

I am not saying if the female is a het or is not a het, but I do think it is important to realize despite the bad odds-at this point, it really is not realistic on the basis of at least this one result to determine that she is ruled out as a het.

There have been numerous examples of codoms and dominants bred to normals with this clutch size that have resulted in normals. There have been numerous examples of homozygous to het animals that have resulted in normals.

This IS NOT a big enough sample size to determine if she is or if she isn't.

Case in point. If you have been reading the Boa forum, you would see there have been several examples of litters from PROVEN albino animals to PROVEN hets, where there are litters of close to 30 babies with 1 or 2 or NO ALBINOS produced! Now those are sample sizes that you are seeing right before your eyes-and it shows you that these ball python numbers, even as large as 9 eggs or up to 15 eggs are not enough to show anything in a single clutch.

I would repeat the breeding and see if you have better luck next time and hopefully time will tell if she is or is not a 100% het.

I think your view of the fact that you have 9 new 100% hets is the best view and that is a great result, despite the either bad odds or the fact she might not be a het.

Tracy/VPI

Thank you Tracy! this means alot coming from you!!

I really understand your point, I have a female Anery Honduran that when I bought her, the breeder told me she was a possible het albino.

The first year I used a Albino Hondo 7 eggs all normals, 2nd year I used a double het snow and 6 eggs all normals.

I had given up on her and last year I used my other double het snow and she produced 8 eggs 2 snows.

I just see others that have been blessed with just using 50% hets. I will try again next year. She is a nice looking female and already has gained her weight back and then some.

Again thank you Tracy!!!

>>First let me say I think you have a great attitude and that is very nice to see-you have been very realistic, and of course no one wants to have a result that wasn't what he/she expected after all the hard and good work you did.
>>
>>I am not saying if the female is a het or is not a het, but I do think it is important to realize despite the bad odds-at this point, it really is not realistic on the basis of at least this one result to determine that she is ruled out as a het.
>>
>>There have been numerous examples of codoms and dominants bred to normals with this clutch size that have resulted in normals. There have been numerous examples of homozygous to het animals that have resulted in normals.
>>
>>This IS NOT a big enough sample size to determine if she is or if she isn't.
>>
>>Case in point. If you have been reading the Boa forum, you would see there have been several examples of litters from PROVEN albino animals to PROVEN hets, where there are litters of close to 30 babies with 1 or 2 or NO ALBINOS produced! Now those are sample sizes that you are seeing right before your eyes-and it shows you that these ball python numbers, even as large as 9 eggs or up to 15 eggs are not enough to show anything in a single clutch.
>>
>>I would repeat the breeding and see if you have better luck next time and hopefully time will tell if she is or is not a 100% het.
>>
>>I think your view of the fact that you have 9 new 100% hets is the best view and that is a great result, despite the either bad odds or the fact she might not be a het.
>>
>>Tracy/VPI
>>
>>
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Thomas Sierra

Hmm, based on what you are saying Tracy, I don't think we know as much about genetics as we think we do. It doesn't seem like it can be as simple as Mendelian genetics based on the evidence.

As mentioned above, a clutch of 9 from a homozygous to a het has a 1 in 512 (.195%) chance of there being no visuals. With how common it sounds based on what you said above, it just seems like Mendelian genetics are not capturing the whole picture. Especially when you are talking about boa clutches. If there were 30 eggs, the chances of no visuals are about .0000000009%. The chances of only one visual are .000000056%.

Don't get me wrong. Crazy, unlikely things do happen. And you are 100% correct, even 30 is not a large enough sample size. Even so, if this is not all that unheard of, it makes me question our understanding of genetics.

Of course I could be completely wrong lol

Last year I got nine eggs from a 100% het female bred to an albino male. I produced this female, I also produced her mother. The mother is a proven het, and she was never bred to anything other than an albino male. So there was no chance of retained sperm. Her sisters also proved last year. On the same day last year I had six eggs laid from a proven het female. I cut all eggs on the same day, imagine how I felt when I got no albinos from fifteen eggs. We'll see what happens this year.
Mike

I have a proven dbl het boa. I know shes a dble het because she produced albinos and snows for me before. Well this year i bread a albino het snow male to her. i got 25 hets and 13 anerys. no albinos or snows. The odds are sometimes against you. better luck next year.

mark thompson

Maybe there is something we don't understand like incompatible lines or pathogenesis being common but the odds of missing on 38 consecutive 50% chances are 1 in 274 billion. Something gives.

I just posted above before I read Randy's post. I completely agree. I'm not convinced of Menelian genetics. I think it's a pretty good model, but it has to be missing something.

Thanks Mark-for putting that out there-I think people look at it as if these things "owe" you-not so! Though statistics say it is crazy that you didn't get an albino-it happened! It has to be part of the data set-you can't take out what you don't like!
This is a very important data point-it doesn't need any excuse, it is what it is, and that is what science is all about.
These data points are very important and I'm happy that you guys came on here and put them out for people to see. Tracy/VPI

Is there any chance that they are not compatible lines of Albino? Like the different axanthics?

I know a guy who bred a pair of Het Albino boas together, got around 18 babies, and only ONE Albino. Now, if he had not produced the one Albino, he probably would have been thinking what you are thinking, and that is, "Is it bad luck or bad Hets?"

Albino x Het with 9 eggs, I would say you have a normal female adult, and a bunch of Het babies. I had the same problem last year with a POSSIBLE Het Ghost female, think it was 6 eggs and no Ghosts. I am going to try her one more time, just for fun, but I am not counting on getting Ghosts from her. I think you should contact whoever you got the female from, and just ask what happens if you do not get any Albinos for a second year.

Dave

Bad luck on not getting any albinos but its not that far out for it not to happen. Each Egg has a 50% chance of being an albino or a het. It doesn't mean out of a 100 eggs, half will be albino...

I would give her another season or two..very very unlikely to get all hets two or three breedings in a row....could also keep a couple female hets from this year's clutch..this way if after a third season of no albinos, you will have a few adult hets to breed to their 'dad'. If you do get albinos in a second or third clutch, then you can just sell off the older hets, being well established, better price tag than if you sold them this year.
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PHLdyPayne

It is completely possible to have bad odds. it shouldn't always be based off of 1 in a kabillion, I should have got this or that becuase mathmatics say so. I bred my male albino to a het female got 7 eggs no albinos, the following year same pair 6 eggs 1 albino! what if that 1 egg happen to slug out or die along the way, i'd be on my third year of trying for an albino with her, that would be completely ridiculous to some to keep trying to prove her out. So by what the odds say I should get 7 for 7 from her this year YEAH!!! haha good luck with her!
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Mike Jenks-Solar Serpents llc

I think it’s still worth calculating the odds to weigh what is most likely the situation. Tom's missing on 9 for 9 works out to 1 in 512 odds. Sure it puts doubt on his female being a het but those odds aren't astronomical. He might really have been that 1 in 512 and might produce lots of albinos from that pair next year. But maybe weighing the odds he'll decide to pick up a 2nd albino het female from another source for his albino male as insurance for next breeding season. Your odds of going 0 for 7 with your first albino X het clutch was only 1 in 128.

Odds can also help us figure out if there is something we don’t understand. Like with the boa that went 0 for 38. Those odds are so astronomical that it almost has to be two incompatible types of albino involved or some other unexpected explanation.

Maybe something about snake reproduction we don't know is making the odds per baby not 50/50 like we are assuming. Maybe female snakes tend to clone egg cells before fertilization in such a way that the odds tend to turn out extreme (either high morph if the main original egg cell had the mutation or low morph if it didn't). Or maybe they often reproduce with parthenogenesis making clones of themselves. Even statistical analysis of the gender distribution (determined by the female in snakes) of a large number of clutches could help uncover either of those but as genetics tools become more common paternity tests and comparisons between siblings should be a huge help.

Or are albino mutant sperm dyeing differentially under some condition (hot or cold) or just not swimming as fast? Are some albino's chimeras created when a het or even normal sibling merges early in development with an albino and while the skin came from the albino the reproductive cells might be from the het or even normal (chimeraism is one theory for the paradox albinos).

Lots of thing to try to figure out. I still have faith in the Mendelan genetics but we may be missing a few pieces of the puzzle too.