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I have had about 100 people ask what my Mystic line is like in comparision to the Mojave line.. I will say that the Mystic seems more variable than the Mojave, some Mystics have very crazy patterns and some Mystics are pretty subtle , the Mojaves vary too but not as much.. I think the best way to compare the 2 morphs is to take one of the best examples of a Mystic and set it next to a below average looking, fairly dark Mojave , in theory I think that's the best way to compare them as in my opinion a very "stand out"/pretty Phantom type morph looks remarkably like an average/below average/ or less colorful Mojave, you'd see some differences with a phantom next to a Mojave for sure but they look more alike than they look different, especially pattern wise, the colors are the main differences.. With that being said, if you put a screaming Mystic (which is likely a Phantom type morph) next to a average Mojave you should still be able to tell them apart if they are different morphs, if it's not easy to tell them apart then the potential Phantom animal may just be an ugly Mojave.. My point here is if one were to try and prove the Mystic to not be a line of Phantom , the best way to do that (without breeding Mystics together that is) would be to put the best looking Mystic you have next to the darkest Mojave you can find and if you can't see a significant difference between the 2 morphs then you may have an arguement that shoots down the theory on the Mystic /phantoms aspect of things.. So that's what I have here to show you, I put one of my VERY best Mystics next to a very dark , low blushing Mojave.. This way "If" the Mystic was just a dark Mojave then it should be very hard to tell which is the dark Mojave and which is the Mystic, look at the pic and see for yourself , do they both look like classic Mojaves?.. My final question to everyone here is this... If the Mystic isn't a line of Phantom then what is it, or better yet what other morph out there resembles my Mystics more than the Phantoms? Comments welcome, look real close at the photo before making a comment! Anthony McCain-McCain's Reptiles....

It will make more sence to you if you look at the Phantom female RDR has on youtube, the 08 Project that is.. She's from his proven line , if Ralph didn't tell you what she was from and put her in your hands alot of you would think she was a Mojave that was a little on the dark side, she has alot of blushing for a Phantom and at first glance you could easily think she was just a not so pretty Mojave, obviously we know that isn't the case , my point is that a very nice phantom looks ALOT like a dark Mojave, the color tones , degree of blushing and belly are about the only real significant differences you can pick out between the 2 morphs.. My founding Mystic was thought to be a dark Mojave when he was imported, his babies indicated that simply wasn't the case. Watch the project 08 youtube clip and you'll understand alot more..

yeah i see the difference between the two.it definitely looks a lot darker.when will you produce a super mystic?

The Mystic you see in those photos is my biggest girl, her sister is a little behind her, both are late 06's so I hope to breed Mystic x Mystic this winter . I'm likely going to call the Super Mystic the Manic Ball, the Nerd line is called the Purple Passion so it seems that we are keeping the lines seperate even if they all end up having a very similiar look and likely would cross together just fine ,much like a Black Pastel crosses with the Cinnamon to make a Super form of it's combined genetics. Once more breeding is complete we will know for sure what is possible with this gene, that's the true test.. Anthony..

i look foward to seeing the super. have any crosses been created yet?

Jeremy Stone thought he made something with a Mystic but he made the same looking cross using another morph so that changed his thinking on what he had.. I may have a shot at a Pastel Mystic myself in a couple months or maybe some other stuff I will mention if I hatch it but really making more Mystics has been the focus, the crosses will start from here on out. Thanks for the good questions, Anthony.

correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the term purple passion given to a snake that was a super phantom and an additional gene. Also kevin does refer to his line as phantoms. While I hope your line proves out to be phantoms for the added gene pool, I almost hope it doesn't so we don't get further confusion with names. With all the different base morphs out there adding new names to different lines is just setting up the future for chaos in trying to determine what combo snake has what morphs in it. While I do agree that you have put in alot of time with this and other morphs, I don't understand what is wrong with naming something like McCaine line phantom just like with what was done with the pastels.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Well said. I agree.

Not sure about the Purple Passion , I only knew about the Phantom gene in it.. I also would think that if the Super form of this gene is identical to a Super Phantom that I would have to say at that point I would have to change my naming and go with what you mention such as a McCain Super Phantom , BUT if it looks like but varies in pattern or color from the original form (which may be a tough call as even RDR line varies some) then I would be better off keeping the names seperate.. It isn't that big of a deal but if the 2 morphs prove compatable but you can still see some differences then I may call it a Mystic Phantom and Manic Super Phantom , then people would know at that point it's still in the phantom gene pool but it is a different line based on visual differences, since people have heard of the Mystic name they would just know where the line is from and wouldn't be confused about it for long that way.. Until I make the Super it is not a concrete answer on what name is best , It's hard to say how easy it would be to tell them apart till they are side by side.. Actually just having RDR line and my line in a tub would be interesting to see , maybe if Ralph comes to chicago next fall we could do that and see if people see a difference, I think it would be very interesting to see. I'd think it would be much like comparing different lines of YB's, you could see some variance but they would look alike, Anthony.

now that is the perfect answer, either McCain or mystic phantom. Me personally I'd rather have my name on it but That's just my preference. The only thing that gets under my skin is the renaming of a morph just because it's from a different lineage. Just think of how many albino lines there are and if we all came up with a different morph name for each of them.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Nice comparison shot Anthony. I love this project - I'll be hatching out my first Mystics later this month, and have at least one clutch of Mystic X Pastel coming.
Keep feeding those girls - can't wait to see the super.
Dan
Dan Wolfe Herpetoculture

Very good news Dan, I am hoping for a couple things too but things are slow here so I won't know much till later this summer. I thought the pic was worth sharing as it shows how similiar yet different they are.. A Mystic looks alot like a dark Mojave until you actually put it next to a Mojave , then it's really easy to see differences.. Take care, let me know how your breedings go, Anthony...

The Mystics and Phantoms look very simular in appearence. It would be easier to name it Phantoms type 2 or Mc Cains line of Phantoms. To keep confusion down to a minimum. Just like the Het Red Axanthics and red Axanthic. There is Corey Woods Line and then snake keeper line of het reds.There are other line of snakes that resemble the het reds and red ax. Jon from next world exotics has some and I have some as well that resembles the het reds but also look like Lori Balls as well.So time and breeding will determine which is which. If they prove out I will not change the name of them just add type 2 or type 3 depending on what Jon produces and names them. Keep the names down to a minimum.
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Thanks and Take Care
Thomas Jones
sweetpetsshop2@yahoo.com

The question for me is, what do you call a snake that has proven to reproduce itself, looks similar to a proven morph that is already named, but you have not produced a Super, or proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, what your snake is?

Let's take Anthony's Mystic as the example. He has done several breedings to prove the snake genetic. It looks similar to a Mojave, and looks similar to a Phantom. If he calls his snake a Mojave, and it does not prove out, then people will be upset with him. If he calls it a Phantom, he will be crushed by Ralph's guys, that it is not a proven Phantom, where is the Super, etc. So, where do you go after proving the snake will reproduce itself, it looks similar to at least one, if not two proven morphs, but you cannot say for sure. Let's just say it takes 3-6 years to prove out a new morph, some less time, some more time. What would Anthony call the snakes, "Possible Mojave Possible Phantom but definately genetic and could be a new morph?" When you have a new project, especially in the past when a new morph could be worth several grand, or 10 grand or more, people are going to want to see what is up with your project, and possibly get in on it.

If you are proving out a new morph, you cannot be expected to keep back every snake if you are a small time breeder, especially if people are emailing you wanting to get in on your project. Bottom line, until you are in Anthony's place, and I have been, what seems easy, and cut and dry, in reality, is not.

I hear the arguement about "confusing" the neewbies with different names. There are books, forums, etc., places a plenty, so if a neewbie has a question, there are many places to get answers. There are plenty of places to do research, and get answers if they are confused by names. YB and Goblin, Mystic and Phantom, Vanilla and Thunder or whatever it is called, I will call them Vanillas, never understood what the fixation was with weather names...
If the Mystic does prove out to be a Phantom, some will keep calling them Mystics, some may not. That is an individuals choice. Just like it is the breeders choice, to name THEIR snake if they feel the need.

I think for the sake of clarity, the snakes should be called a "proven dominant (at least at this point in time) morph that resembles mojaves and phantoms".

I feel they only rememble the Mojaves in overall pattern, and to some degree the heads on Mystics are alot like Mojaves.. Other than that they rememble the Phantoms in all the other ways. The overall color (intense black that you don't see in Mojaves) , level of and style of blushing on the sides (it's a different shade of blushing than Mojaves have), lack of/reduction of blushing on the dorsal area on the Mystic also doesn't fit with Mojaves , and the ever important belly of the Mystics which is more variable than a Mojave belly (Mystics can have pigment specks in the belly center and Mojaves don't) and a Mystic has much darker pigment than a Mojave has.

In a nutshell they look more like phantoms than ANY other proven morph out there.. I don't feel a 5 or 6 word name is fitting for them , but also felt until I produce the Super that naming them Mystics was the best thing to do to prevent issues with people.. When the Super is made I will make only small changes to the name of the morph and the Super form so it isn't a confusing mess to anyone, hopefully if anyone makes the Super Mystic before I do they won't make it even more difficult to follow by using a totally different name as that won't do any of us any good .. I'll do my best to produce the Super within the next year or so and hopefully have the name in place for good at that time , some things are out of my hands so time will tell.

I has been alot of work working on this project but much like the Super Stripe project I think it's worth all the time I can put into it.. Making a Super form of the Mystic and adding in theory a splash of purple to the Super Stripe could be a real eye opener for both projects!

Thanks for all the good comments , I will keep all of this in mind, Anthony McCain..

You do have a point...I can't even imagine the kind of crap you would get if you called them phantoms before you even showed if there, or what kind of super they produce.

What morph are you going to pick out and rename as your own next ?? Just would like to know as to avoid them all together !! Thanks David

You let me know when you prove out anything as rare as the Phantoms or the ingredient gene that makes the Super Stripe and then you'll have accomplished something, until then please keep your sneering comments to yourself . You obviously have little knowledge about either morph. Both morphs are HIGHLY variable so it makes it hard to name them all the same things until we know 100% for sure it is the exact same gene.. On a side note the Butter and Lessers MUST be the same morph based on Platty Daddy VS Butter Daddy so are you jumping down the Bell's throat for calling them Butters instead of Lessers since the Lesser was named first and so far the 2 seperately named morphs are only a slight color difference of the same gene???? That is just one case in point but since it's Big name breeders that named and kept the second name for the same gene after the Butter proved to be the same gene as the lesser by making a "Daddy" of it's own , so we just let that one slide??? I'll only reply to people that are actually willing to look at this with an open mind, brainwashed people need not read my posts as I don't have time to waste replying to people like that .. Anthony McCain....

Then why did you reply ? And as for what you are saying , I’ve head it all before from you about other ball morphs and on this very forum . It would be different if you weren’t trying to make a name for your self off of the work others wave already done, but in my opinion that’s your M.O. . yes you have done a lot of work and bred a lot of snake and that would be commendable if that’s all you were claming ,but you take something that already exists and put your name on it if it has the slightest difference in color or has a variance in pattern . I bred a Mojave to a really dark normal and hatched some really dark Mojave’s but that didn’t mean I had a new morph on my hands , and they didn’t look like the average Mojave ,But THAT’S WHAT THEY WERE JUST A DARK FAZE MOJAVE . You could get a lot more credit and respect if you just post what you do and let the rank and file confirm a NEW morph before you start all the controversy , and people will respond a lot more positive . But I think others have tried to tell you the same thing before . and just for your info for every herper in your corner there are 50 that aren’t , at least that has been the opinion of all the ones I have talked to . If I have offended any one else with this post , SORRY but that is how I feel about this ,and you have the right to feel differently , thanks David

Funny thing is ANYONE EDUCATED that sees the Mystics make comments like "that isn't a Mojave, no way, looks alike like a Phantom, breed it out to be sure".. So you can't call it a Phantom line YET and I am not about to call it "dominant/ potentially codominant phantom looking genetic " to please people like you.....Besides even Dave & Tracy Barker list the Mystic in the index of morphs , I'd say that likely means something.. As for the ever famous Dark Mojave comment which I have heard before, FACT is that I have hatched and looked at a ton of Mojaves produced from several varying degrees of Mojaves from ones as light as some lessers to dark ones "almost" as dark as a phantom and EVEN the darkest ones don't have a belly like the Mystics so your comment means little to me... I held phantoms in my hands at Ralphs table a few years back and looked very close at them, and the belly markings too, have you?? I highly doubt I would have Black Eyed Lucy, Killer Bee, Super Lesser /Blue Eyed Lucy , Calico, Honeybee and other investement morphs here for my Mystic trades if all those educated breeders thought they were just ugly Mojaves .. Next thing you'll be saying I really don't know how to make Super Stripes either..

I also see you didn't touch my Lesser /Butter naming issue, why is that?? Best of luck to you with your projects and try spell check next time before you post... I won't be looking at ANY of your posts from here on out as you've proved to me what you really know, my reply here is not just for me but for all those that do feel the project will go places without your further input...

By the way this pic is just for you David. So does that look like a dark Mojave next to that average looking Mojave TO YOU?? Ralph Davis himself looked at this very pic BEFORE I purchased that male you see on the right in the pic .. What was Ralph's reply back to my email/pic asking him what he thought of that imported snake that has since founded the Mystic line you ask ? "Looks like a phantom to me bro", I still have that email on file JUST for people JUST like you, NOTE he said "looks like" , so it's still a Mystic for now, I'm not stepping on toes for now.. good day..... Anthony..

If it turns out to be something totally new then I will eat my words ,and even more if it turns out to be a existing morph and you don’t put your own name to it instead of calling it what it is then I will make a public apology to you and every body else , time will tell , like Ralph said looks like a phantom ,so were did mystic come from , :YOU: and as for what I know ,you can’t begin to comprehend the existent of my knowledge , I have forgotten more over the last 35 years working with Reptiles in the way of general knowledge covering the hole of Reptile species than you appear to know now and if you don’t know someone’s abilities then I wouldn’t comment on them . Don’t count on shading someone you don’t know .so I guess I have nothing left to say to you until the proof comes ,good luck to you and I will pray for your enlightenment LOL!! I don’t think you’ll see any other post from me to you ether ,so we do have one thing in common . David

Time will tell. As for your other comment the only thing I can say is that I started this business in 1993 with a small group of normal balls and in 1995 purchased 2 Het for Albino Males from Bob Clark.. I was told back then that I wouldn't get anywhere with just a couple male Hets and some normal females.. I now have a very respectable collection of over 15 base mutations, most of which got here because of all the Albinos I made with the Poss Hets I produced and held back from those 2 Het males and simply traded baby Albinos for other morphs I needed. This business has required thousands of hours of my time, alot of money to progress forward, an eye for what I'm doing , and unfortunately a small amount of time dealing with people like you that claim to know everything (except how to spell).. If you care to discuss all that you've accomplished please feel free to call my cell, I have free incoming calls and don't have the time to spend at the computer with you, I'm sure we can finish this then, lol. Anthony McCain... 515-971-9808

Anthony, do not worry about David...and DO NOT call him Dave either!

He bashed my projects too, basically jumping on the bashing band wagon, and did not shut up until ES posted a pic of a Sulfur Mojave and Sulfur, and said what I had been saying for weeks, that my Sulfur project was proven genetic, but we did not know anything beyond that. Even after I had proven them genetic, David ole boy still was saying they were nothing but normals. BUT, he is the Ball genius, so I guess what he says goes.

Well Ember once again you keep getting it all mixed up . I posted once about your Sulfur and we had a spat over it and then later apologized to you and 7 months to a year later you started some --------- with me and started saying that I said this and that , and I told you then you had me mixed up with some one else and to find it in the archives and you never could because it wasn’t there . And I never clamed to be a expert on anything , so get it strait man FOR ONE AND FOR ALL I don’t have any thing against you but if you keep saying stuff I never said then I will , I haven’t bothered you so don’t bother me , as a mater of fact the last time I posted on one of your threads I was complimenting you ! And I have no intention of calling Anthony as I have listened to a tape of a conversation between him and a female customer that he no longer has and if he will talk to a lady like that then I don’t won’t to here that profanity . Dose Jane W. ring a bell Anthony ???? I know you don’t wont what that was about spread all over this forum , and I ant that low , YET, NOW THIS IS THE END OF THIS MESS, I WILL NO FERTHER LOWER MY SELF TO THIS LEVAL !!!! David

If you ask her we BOTH apologized and she knows that , her for getting in the middle of things that she didn't have all the facts about , and I for getting mad and using any bad words, words which by the way were not directed to her or about her , I did cuss out loud because of things that were said that weren't facts but I didn't directly call her anything, your comment can be taken alot worse than it was, people cuss , it happens.. If this is something you feel is worth bringing up you'd better explain the end result as we both agreed on the phone that very day that it wasn't worth either of us getting worked up over.. YOU are obvioulsy trying to make a moutain out of a mole hill once again.. This is not the BOI , this is a Ball forum.. I won't waste my time on the BOI these days as it proves/solves nothing , it's an endless game I won't waste time on and I won't waste it here with you over things that have nothing to do with my Mystic project or the thread I started.. My intentions were to show people what the Mystics look like , etc , not to go back and forth with some guy that can't even spell words properly.. Heck, Why don't you call Ralph Davis up and tell him that you think the Mystic should be called a Phantom ASAP based solely on looks and get back to me with what he tells you if your so set on starting things with people! You have nothing but crap to say that is not gaining anything for anyone, that is not the purpose of this forum.. Once you have something POSITIVE to share about YOUR Ball Python accomplishments please be sure to post those comments, as I'd like to see something worth sharing come from you, something that actually pertains to Balls and the here and now !!!!!!!!!!!!! Anthony McCain.

David, if Anthony did something so bad, that you feel the need to post about it on a public forum, why not have the person that you feel was wronged, post instead of you? If they have gotten over it, why bring it up?

It is easy to forgive but I do not forget. You attacked Anthony and his project in the exact same way you attacked me and my projects, so you evidently did not learn your lesson, you just proved your lack of knowlege. How would you know more about Anthony's project than Anthony? How would you know more about my projects than I would know? If you are not perfect, you might want to answer the questions that are up your alley, and lay off the personal attacks.