Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey everyone,

I have an odd question for all of you who keep both boa and python species in your collection.

I have a decent-sized colony of green tree pythons, who are my pride and joy. They are the main focus of what I keep, along with a couple carpets and colubrids. However, I've kicked around the idea lately of possibly obtaining another rainbow boa in the future (a BRB was my first snake) or maybe looking into a BCC. I really miss my rainbow, and to me, the BCC is an ideal "bigger snake" for someone like me who mainly keeps the medium-sized guys.

My problem is, the threat/scare of IBD is keeping me from feeling comfortable adding a boa into my collection of pythons; I know boas can be asymptomatic carriers, and I don't know how I would recover if my chondro colony was wiped out, either emotionally or financially.

I know that there are definitely big-name breeders out there who work with both boas and BPs, for example, so I figure folks can't all just be sticking to exclusively boas OR pythons all the time.

So my question is, if you keep both boas and pythons, do you keep them in seperate rooms with strict quarantine-like procedures between the two? Or do you feel safe keeping them in the same herp room? What steps do you take to determine the health of your new arrivals, and are there sources of boas out there that are generally considered "safe" (I know reptile shows and pet shops are out, of course)?

Thanks for any info you can provide. I am a long-time admirer of boas, especially redtails, and hope that this post doesn't come across as anything but genuinely curious and hopeful. Thanks!

In reality cases of IBD are very rare! There are a multitude of healthissues that create IBD like symptoms! For Example, I had a female boa back in 03 that was purchased a year after I had bought three of the her siblings. All the siblings were doing great, when I got the female she was quite a bit smaller than the rest of her siblings I had bought a year ago. I basically turned her into a rodent dumping ground, feeding her whenever she would eat. About a year and half later I went to feed her and she didn't react in her usual way. After I moved her I realized she was having a balance issue I removed her and her tub from the rack picked her up and attempted to see what was going on. She started to flop and a roll not out of control, but she definitely was having a hard time controling her physical functions. I called my vet immediately got her in there to him and he check her out. By now the symtoms had gotten a bith worse and she now starting to have not pupil movement. The vet ran blood work on her and determined that she was in kidney failure and was building up fluid on vital organs. Since no one has done kidney transplant surgery or dialysis on snake. I took her home a quarintined her and she lasted about two more weeks before she died. After she died I had a biopsy done on all her organs! When the vet did the necropsy he noticed that her kidneys where half the size they should have been. To make this long story shorter all the biopsys came back negative for IBD. I had basically burned this females kidneys out from the constant feeding and her kidneys failed her, which caused her to have fluid on her brain, which then resulted in her death. I still have all three of her siblings that were fed on a regular schedule all healthy as horses and excellent breeders. they are all about seven years old now.

In reality I wouldn't be scared of adding another BRB for the reason of IBD. Just make sure you get you BRB from a good source I know there are a few really reputable breeders of BRB out there, Brian Hummel, Dave Colling and Brian Sharp just to name a few.

Hope this helps and good luck with your search for your new BRB!

Al Brown/Brown's Boas

I've read in several reputable sources, that IBD is actually much more common than people believe. At least in boa collections. I do think it is mis-diagnosed, as you say... regularly. However, it was quoted in a source that nobody can say their collection is IBD-free with any certainty because of the fact that it can be asymptomatic in boas and they can carry it, and pass it to other snakes who may die from it, and not die from it themselves, or ever show any signs of it throughout their whole lifetimes.
Based on all the differing opinions on this retrovirus, I really don't know how conclusive we can be on it. From what I understand, people still aren't sure it if is airborne or just blood/fluid transmitted, and so take extra precautions. I know it would be my worst nightmare myself.
Not to scare anyone or negate anyone's opinion, but I thought I'd chime in. I honestly hope it isn't as widespread as I've read it could be. The other unfortunate thing is that the only definite tests are on deceased animals, so many people won't even know the truth with a live biopsy. In Brown's case, he bothered to test after death, I think that was really smart. Now he doesn't have to worry about offspring or others having it from the snake that was ill because he knows for sure.
Just my thoughts!
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Steph S.
Boas...
1.1 Albino boas (Loki & Hope)
1.4 07 Het. albino boas (Petty & Lady,Sierra,Madeline,Lola)
0.1 Reverse stripe poss. het albino (Cookie)
0.1 Salmon/hypo (Scarlet)
0.1 Anery poss. het snow (Missy)
1.0 Anery (Reno)
1.0 Probable Super Salmontine
0.1 DH Sunglow (Bonnie)
0.0.1 Hypo het anery
1.0.0 Het. Anery (Guy & ?)
0.3 Normals (Ophelia, Sasha, & Lulu)
1.1 Surinames (Solomon & Surreal)
1.2 Hog Isles (Mr.Orange & Peaches, Tang.)
0.0.1 Central American (Sassy)
0.1 Emerald Tree boa (Jade)
1.0 ATB (Satan... seriously!)
Pythons...
2.1 GTPs (B., Monty & Jewel)
0.0.3 BPs (MJ, Precious, Houdini)
1.1 Carpet Pythons (Jackson & Charlotte)
0.1 Blood python (Akaia)
Misc.
1.1 Mandarin Ratsnakes (Jack & Jill)
1.0 Boxer/Pitt Mutt (Tyson)

Just a couple thoughts... I have read on several occasions the opinion that IBD may be an airborne virus. If IBD was indeed airborne, there would be no boids in herpetoculture. Just imagine how quickly IBD would wipe out every boa if it was airborne. IBD in one boa would quickly spread to many boas at a reptile show, or one case would wipe out entire collections quickly. Someone who handles one boa at a show may hold twelve others, and the chain would continue. When cage cleaning rolls around at some large breeders, hundreds of cages will be cleaned the same day, by the same person or only a few people. Boas would be dropping left and right. Even though not every boa carrying IBD will show signs, if IBD was as widespread as some lecture, it would be a much more common topic, and we would hear of more IBD cases. I do believe that IBD, and paramyxovirus, and retroviruses are a concern for reptile keepers. I also believe that for every correctly diagnosed case of a retrovirus, there are many more mis-diagnosed cases. That is simply my opinion on the research I have done, and the extremely under-educated (concerning reptiles) veterinarians with whom I have discussed this topic. The greatest example being multiple vets who admitted diagnosing any snake with neurological issues as having IBD. Can you diagnose IBD over the phone? Apparently some vets have this amazing capacity. Why would they do this? A diagnosis of IBD encompasses and safeguards the vet. Who is going to prove them wrong? Even if no inclusion bodies are found through biopsy, that does not rule out a retrovirus. Even more confusing, if inclusion bodies are found, that does not mean the animal had IBD.

As was mentioned, when buying reptiles, buy from a reputable source. You may be able to buy an albino boa for $100 cheaper on the classifieds, but is it worth the risk? There are many small and large breeders that sell clean reptiles and utilize proper husbandry. Why gamble your entire collection with uncertainty? Look at the ad or talk to the breeder. It is fairly simple to spot the con artists. Reptiles that are maintained under bad husbandry will get sick and spread disease. It is that simple. People who are in this business for the wrong reasons with no regard for the welfare of the animals will spread disease. It is that simple. Support the good guys in the business and the hobby will continue to grow and you will be able to enjoy your reptiles the rest of your life, and pass on the opportunity to future generations.

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Phil Goss
www.GossReptiles.com

I agree with all the opinions given on here! There could be more cases of IBD than meets the eye! In most actual outbreaks of IBD that I have heard of that were verifiable the whole collection went down hill fairly quickly with several back to back cases of the disease. The reason I had my female tested was I had not had a snake die in over five years, not so much as sniffle in my collection. This females condtion happened rapidly meaning one day she was fine next she was not. I had a-lot of money invested in my collection at the time. I was 23 years old with about a 50K plus collection and this was going to be my career/means of income. Thankfully it still is today. I think one thng has been established though. Buy from reputable people you have seen or heard good things about. I still have relationships with customers that I delt with 10 years ago. And like PGOSS said a con can be spotted with a few choice questions. I always like to pick animals up in person if possible go see the collection your animals came from. That can be the best indicator of someone who is doing it right and someone who is not.

Al Brown/Brown's Boas

Quote --- "I always like to pick animals up in person if possible go see the collection your animals came from. That can be the best indicator of someone who is doing it right and someone who is not."
I personally don't like to let people come over and handle my animals, especially if they have small collections of their own, or when they talk about coming from a pet store. It's just an invite to mites or anything else. Tough call.
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Snake room janitor

The reason I am selective about who I let come over to my place is I do not want someone coming over to case the joint. Unfortunately here in Florida we have a problem with peoples snakes/collections getting stolen. Someone could come over to buy a $200 hypo and then a week later all of my stuff could be gone. And I have put in way to much blood, sweet, tears and $ to see it disappear one day while I am at work.

Joe

Well, If you are worried about your collection being stolen by someone coming and seeing your collection then your security in your home/ snake building isn't good enough. I have a home security system with probes on all windows and doors as well as motion sensors not to metion I breed Dobermans so good luck stepping in my driveway without a few snarling barks. I let any customer that wants to come see my collection do so. It is good for new people to see a proffesional setup and how things work. Sometime the difference in the sale might be them coming to see your animals. I will tell you this I won't let someone coming and seeing my collection keep me from putting food on the table for my children.

As Far as someone bringing mites into your collection. You have just as much chance of bringing mites into your collection by going to reptile show as you do by letting someone come see your animals. Everytime I vend a show as soon as the animal leaves my building it is considered contaminated and will be treated as it had a raging mite infestation. I have been to every major reptile show on the East Coast and it never fails there is always someone at the show with an animal on their table with mites.

The main thing is think with your head! The one time in the last ten years that I have found a mite in my collection it was because I didn't follow proper quarintine procedure. If you use your head and do make a careless mistake, mite elimination is no problem.

Al Brown/Brown's Boas

Nice to see so many of us are on the same page
I think it would be really odd if it were airborne as well for the same reasons you stated. All animals would die or become infected extremely easily. however, I have heard 'stories' from folks saying they lost whole collections to IBD and I have trouble understanding how, if it wasn't airborne, and they had mite-free collections? Either the story isn't accurate or...??? I just practice the best husbandry I can and like the other posters, watch who I buy from!
I also think, (IMO) that even if it is sexually transmitted, that as with HIV or any STD etc. that it isn't necessarily the first sexual contact, etc. that will give it to them. From what I've been told, some people can have sex with an infected person and it could take several times to contract whatever they may have... I think it would be a similar case with snakes too. Continuous exposure of any kind would be, I think, the biggest factor in infecting a whole collection....
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Steph S.
Boas...
1.1 Albino boas (Loki & Hope)
1.4 07 Het. albino boas (Petty & Lady,Sierra,Madeline,Lola)
0.1 Reverse stripe poss. het albino (Cookie)
0.1 Salmon/hypo (Scarlet)
0.1 Anery poss. het snow (Missy)
1.0 Anery (Reno)
1.0 Probable Super Salmontine
0.1 DH Sunglow (Bonnie)
0.0.1 Hypo het anery
1.0.0 Het. Anery (Guy & ?)
0.3 Normals (Ophelia, Sasha, & Lulu)
1.1 Surinames (Solomon & Surreal)
1.2 Hog Isles (Mr.Orange & Peaches, Tang.)
0.0.1 Central American (Sassy)
0.1 Emerald Tree boa (Jade)
1.0 ATB (Satan... seriously!)
Pythons...
2.1 GTPs (B., Monty & Jewel)
0.0.3 BPs (MJ, Precious, Houdini)
1.1 Carpet Pythons (Jackson & Charlotte)
0.1 Blood python (Akaia)
Misc.
1.1 Mandarin Ratsnakes (Jack & Jill)
1.0 Boxer/Pitt Mutt (Tyson)

I keep only boas, BRB's and BCI's. I do know others that keep both boa's and pythons in the same room. IBD is a constant worry for all of us. I'd be willing to bet everyone of us has noticed a snake making some wierd movement and had our hearts skip beat!!!

Like the others have said, buying from a reputable source is the best protection you can get. Of course the problem is some/many/most ? of the new guys are just fine to deal with, just more of an unknown. ASK QUESTIONS and by all means listen to your "spidey sense" (Spiderman two was on TV the other night) If anything the seller says sounds wrong, untrue or misleading - RUN!!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

"I'd be willing to bet everyone of us has noticed a snake making some wierd movement and had our hearts skip beat!!!"

Guilty as charged, I have a Male Hypo that demonstrates all of the movments people generally associate with IBD. I first noticced it years ago and seperated him, and made a vet appointment. Turn's out, he's blind, has no pupil response, what caused this is unknown.

I haven't used him as a breeder since...seams a waste cause he's a beautiful animal.
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Jeremy Payne
Owner
JB Reptile
www.jbreptile.com **Coming Sooner or Later**

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Motley Het Anery **In aquisition**
1.0 Snow "Khal"
0.2 Triple Het Moonglow "Khal" **coming Soon**
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow
1.0 Ghost **coming soon**
1.0 Hypomelenistic
1.2 Pastel Hypo
0.1 Suriname/Columbian cross
0.1 Anerthrystic
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
2.0 Child

OMG!
You wouldn't believe the # of animals we've had pop through the rescue that ended up being blind!! (that showed symptoms of IBD)

It seriously makes your chest sink to see a spinning snake!!

I personally don't think it is as common as people think-- BUT-- I think it's good that people think its super common-- it keeps the serious keepers on thier toes.

I agree that buying from good breeders, and having good quarantine procedures will keep you from having any problems. I've been on these forums since 9th grade (dang.. has it been that long)--- and in the last 3 years or so, I've been constantly reading posts by the regulars, and watching thier websites-- and I check the BOI regularly. I know who I'll buy from.

We have a little bit of everything here---

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue