Reptile & Amphibian Forums

there was a discussion earlier about the dangers of releasing captive bred corns into the wild.
It appears there are dangerous pathogens and diseases carried by our captive corn snakes that wild corn snakes are not immune to.

I was just wondering...
why is it that all of these wild caught specimens we bring into our collections can survive these pathogens and diseases?

I know this sounds like a smart ass post but it really isn't meant to be. At least not completely.
Yes, there is my usual sarcastic "spin" to the post but I really am curious as to why there seems to be such a terrible danger to wild corns by releasing captive breds but those same wild corns become instantly immune to these dangerous pathogens when we bring them into our collections.

just thinking out loud and welcoming comments

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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While I'm in the camp that says don't release CB animals - there is a double standard, at least from LE policy.

It is strictly illegal by DF&G regulations for me to release my CB locality alligator lizards, yet DF&G regularly releases game fish with absolutely no concern for where they came from, often releasing them in places where they are not even native.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

I had one single WC in our group.. Scarlet King, unfortunantly he did not make it through qaurenteen during brumation.. The more time I put intoconsidering keeping WC's the more I am really against it in my collection.. There are so many captive bred animals produced every year there is really no point in taking the wild animals.. There is not much I can't eventually produce from CB and CR animals..

I can however see the perpective of the above posters..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

One of the things I like, though I don't own a lot, are "wild type" locality animals. The best locality specimens IMHO are F1 and F2 as they haven't deviated much (if noticably at all) from the wild phenotype. It's fascinating to see the differences that exist in the species in the wild.

It's also fascinating to see what selective breeding can do to a locality line (IE Abbott or Love Okeetees).

When a wild population is healthy, I see nothing wrong with hobbyists taking representatives of the locality into captivity, as long as it is done legally and within reason (IE don't take 50 even if it is legal, and don't take more than you can care for).

When a population is suffering population reduction, as long as it is legal I see nothing wrong with experienced herpers taking representatives for the purpose of locality breeding projects - even if re-introduction is never a goal.

When a population is zoned for habitat destruction, taking them into captivity sure beats the hell out of a bulldozer killing them.

The ease of caring for the species also should be considered.

Scarlet kings are notoriously difficult to keep when WC, captive lines have the benefit of selective breeding for better "thrivability" under captive conditions, I would only want CB if I was into scarlet kings as I'm not sure I could do a decent job with wild caught.

I do want some pale milks, and I want locality pale milks, but I insist on them being CB and already taking pinks before I get them - I don't want WC pale milks because they can be difficult to move to rodents when young, though they are not as difficult as their scarlet king cousin.

Corn snakes though are a different situation all together, and most (all?) localities adapt to captive conditions fairly well.

With all the hybrids going on, resulting in unidentified hybrids in the trade, a locality corn snake with known lineage back to WC is very attractive to many keepers.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

>>While I'm in the camp that says don't release CB animals - there is a double standard, at least from LE policy.
>>
>>It is strictly illegal by DF&G regulations for me to release my CB locality alligator lizards, yet DF&G regularly releases game fish with absolutely no concern for where they came from, often releasing them in places where they are not even native.
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>>I decided my old sig was too big.

I'm not talking about the legality.
read my post
I'm talking about the pathogens and diseases that are used as a reason not to release.
If it's against the law it's against the law. don't do it.
I am delving into the pathogen side of the equation.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

...Our FWC released 30,000 grass-eating carp into Deerpoint Lake a couple months back... the main difference with those particular fish is that they were genetically engineered NOT to breed, so when they finish eating all the non-native grass that is taking over the lake, and they live out their lifetimes, they'll die off. In theory anyway. What ended up happening was that we had a TON of rain back in February and the lake flooded over its dam, causing nearly all the carp to jump over into the brackish bayou on the other side. They pretty much all died. :/
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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake (Eddie Gein)
0.0.2 Cornsnakes (Lyle & Erik Menendez)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Black Cat (Shadowfax)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan) (Deceased )
1.0 Tennessee Walking Horse (Durango)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

they engineered the dinosaurs to all be girls ...
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I decided my old sig was too big.

As to how these WC animals survive these pathogens - some of them do and some of them don't. The concern for me is what happens when that pathogen moves from released corn snakes to canebrake rattlesnakes, etc.

If someone wants to release their CB locality animals, I don't get my panties tied up in a wad - I just prefer that it only be done by scientists, but opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody has one.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

I've actually wondered about that very same thing for many years......exactly WHAT pathogens, and exactly WHAT diseases are captive bred animals supposed to possess, that these wild-types do NOT?

I certainly don't condone releasing all different types of animals where they don't belong, but I would very much like to see scientific proof of "KNOWN" healthy captives getting wild snakes sick, or killing them. This seems rather difficult to impossible to prove without years of field data performed with radio tracking devices on many subjects......It sure "sounds" good on paper, but I have to wonder just how accurate this belief really is. It sort of reminds me of laws that are put in place, just on the off-chance it could get out of hand easily. First someone releases this, then that, then something else, and before you know it all sorts of non-indigenous animals are where they shouldn't be. I'm wondering that maybe to a certain extent it's much easier just to say NO to ALL things being released, than it is to deal with problems that might arise later on?....who knows!(shrug).

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I agree with Doug. I don't know if any biologist has "proven" that released animals have "contaminated" local animals (this is better documented in our human species) but I do know there are countless examples of "invasive" non-indiginous species that have caused all sorts of havoc on ecosystems, some planned and others not. Consider the Cane Toads in Australia, Burmese Pythons, Iguanas, Monkeys in Florida, Zebra Mussels in the Great Lakes, Cat-eyed Snakes in Guam etc... That seems to be more dangerous than pathogens but I do understand that a snake indiginous to India may "introduce" pathogens to Florida animals they are not capable of fending off. It's easier to just say No then deal with the potential problems later.

I think a lot of regulations and ordinances are passed that are "blanket" laws with often not a lot of proof or facts behind them.

Consider a small town in my area that has a "no constrictor" ordinance. What it means is that NO constrictor snake can be housed/kept in that town from the largest anaconda to the diminutive spotted python to the "nearly domesticated" cornsnake. But don't get me started!
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Ken Roshak
BlackSwampSerpents@toast.net

The fungus wreaking havoc on amphibians worldwide almost certainly is an exotic pathogen that originated in Africa and quite likely spread as a result of the African Clawed Frog - which carries the virus but is immune to it (as many frogs are in the suspected native area of the fungus)

Whether the fungus got into the wild as a result of released/escaped clawed frogs or handling clawed frogs before handling wild herps is unknown, probably both.

African Clawed Frogs were so heavily spread in labs around the world due to their economic use in pregnancy tests.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

A prime example that is well known in my area ( So Cal ) is that a lot of the wild population of the Desert Tortise can be infected.. Apparently, an URI, that likely came from a relaeshed animal has wreaked havoc on the local populations making them a rare siting.. I have lived in the desert for 6 years and I have never seen a wild desert tortise when many years ago they were in the hundreds in a sqaure mile.. After 50 000 miles in a year crusing the desert you would think I would have seen one by now..*shrugs*

Regards.. Tim of T and J

...is the idiot legistlators and "good intentions" have made it illegal to breed cal desert tortoises.

Regardless of the cause of the population decimation it is pure lunacy to ban the captive propogation of a at risk and easy to breed species. I agree with banning collecting but when you have lots of cb babies that in proper conditions breed like rabbits why not let em breed. You could even have specialists test and quarunteen cb specimens to ensure of no risk and then use them to repopulate.

Instead you have a situation where every adopted out cal desert tortoise is now the result of a raid on someone successfully but illegaly breeding them. It used to be that they were illegal to collect but you were free to adopt from other breeder and then adopt out any offspring you produce.

I'll get off the rant soapbox

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

I agree - the breeding restrictions on native species is absolutely stupid.

When the San Diego Mountain King became a protected species - there were several breeders with succesful colonies who traded them all out of state before the law took effect so they wouldn't get raided.

Were it not for the stupid laws, those colonies could have been the start of very succesful csaptive bred lines giving people who really want one easy access to them w/o needing to poach them.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

I believe it has been documented with the California Desert Tortoise and with one species of rattlesnake.

I'll try to find references.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

"I was just wondering...
why is it that all of these wild caught specimens we bring into our collections can survive these pathogens and diseases?"

A lot of times, they don't survive. It's the reason that it is a VERY good idea to hit wild caught animals with prophylactic doses of Flagyl and Panacur. I like to say that in the wild, animals are "embedded" in their environment, with many external and internal parasites living with the animal, but kept in check by a healthy, unstressed immune system and, perhaps, competition among themselves.

But bring that animal into captivity, and the stresses it experiences more often than not allows one or more of those parasites to "run amok"-with very bad results for the animal.

As for captive snakes passing parasites/diseases to wild animals, the best example I can think of is the common snake mite. This nasty little parasite has never been found in the wil-we have no idea where it originated. But I would sure hate to see it get loose anywhere in this country!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

One also needs to look at the big picture. While it is true that there are no documented studies that show harm to wild populations due to introduced pathogens(at least that I know of), why take a chance? Kind of like the argument about keeping Kingsnakes together. Secondly, and here I am trying to get into the minds of the wildlife("authorities"perhaps,it has a far greater impact to introduce pathogens to a wild population than to introduce from the wild into your home, which is a finite collection. I guess for the above reasons, unless an endangered species regulated captive release program, I would agree with not releasing a captive into a wild population. I hope this made some sense as I can ramble.

North Africa.

YUNKER CE.

Studies on the snake mite, Ophionyssus natricis, in nature.
Science. 1956 Nov 16;124(3229):979-80.

Paul, that's outstanding-I have always heard (and read in a variety of sources) that the provenance of the snake mite was a complete unknown. Thanks so much for that info!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Mycoplasma agassizii is a bacterium that has killed many native Desert Tortoises through contact with infected pet tortoises they were released by their owners.

That's just one example of why captive herps shouldn't be released iunto the wild.

Tim

Tim, isnt microplasma specific to only torts though? I quess I see Draybars point. If a the CBs are generally disease free as many tout them to be, why should they introduce anything into the wild populations if release, or a WC kept in captivity that is eventually released. As Draybar stated, most folks have little concern the CB snakes in their collections are going to infect the WC introduced. Its usually the other way around when bringing WC into a collection with parasites, etc. Now I AM talking about cb corns with wc corns, etc. Not WC asians with cb corns. Then there is a possibility of an exotic pathogen being introduced to a colony. Same thing with corns caught from other areas of the country. BUT if you only have CB animals who many claim are disease free, I really cant see any harm.

including humans. Captive born doesn't mean pathogen free. Most of the time, the numbers are low enough and animals are healthy enough not show clinical symptoms of disease.

I am not a microbiologist, but I would guess that once you keep reptiles from many different parts of the country (and even the world) together, they will get a chance to pick up microbes that they would never encounter in the wild in their own home range. And if they are housed near exotic, unrelated species such as pythons, boas, various lizards, etc, they may acquire some species of pathogen that is normally benign to the original host, but could cause problems to our native species - or our species could host microbes that could affect the exotics. The new microbes may hide in your captive, healthy snake in low numbers. But that snake may be able to pass it on to others, or may become ill if it becomes stressed for some reason.

I don't know of any specific examples between reptile species, but since people can pick up Salmonella from reptiles that don't show any effect from it, it seems possible that unrelated reptile species might do the same to each other.

Bacterial, fungal, viral, and parasitic infections are undeniably something to worry about. The above example with tortoise-killing bacteria is one example - chytrid fungus, bacteria, and trematode (worm) infections in frogs and toads is but another. There are undoubtedly infectious agents that could decimate squamate (lizard and snake) populations as well. I'm sure we've all heard about viral star-gazing in boids...

I'd be concerned with genetic pollution as well. Captive animals are pampered compared to their wild counterparts. Animals that would never survive to reproduce in a wild setting are bred with ease in captivity, perpetuating any number of genetic "flaws" that would be detrimental to a wild animal. The release of such an animal in a setting where it could reproduce with wild memebers of it's species (or closely related ones) and forever polute the gene pool sounds pretty scary. Of course, any seriously detrimental mutation would be selected against in its homozygous or expressed form, but hets will never be eliminated (assuming a simple recessive trait).

-Cole