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Do monitors mark territory?

dekaybrown Jun 11, 2008 10:37 PM

Now that we have been having hot sunny days, Chomper (our Sav) has been going outdoors for a while and its as if he strategically places "waste" in some strange places.

So do they mark with scent?

Thanks,
Wayne

P.s. Damn this little dude can run FAST when given the room to do so
-----

1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
0.0.1 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmello" adult super sweet temperment
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garters "spot" & "Zig"
2.2.0 Thamnophis radix Snow, Iowa snow & christmas snow het.
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - "Flame" red and white stripes
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis CB "Flame" & Melanistic
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

Replies (37)

FR Jun 11, 2008 11:09 PM

Without question they mark their territory. They have scent glands and also deficate to do this. I am sure, they also have other methods as well, chin rubbing, etc.

When they mark a spot, they are actually claiming that spot as theirs. Cheers

dekaybrown Jun 12, 2008 08:05 AM

COOL! Thanks Frank.

Regards,
Wayne
-----

1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
0.0.1 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmello" adult super sweet temperment
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garters "spot" & "Zig"
2.2.0 Thamnophis radix Snow, Iowa snow & christmas snow het.
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - "Flame" red and white stripes
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis CB "Flame" & Melanistic
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

SHvar Jun 12, 2008 10:59 AM

Its funny watching 2 of the same species marking the same spot claiming it.

dekaybrown Jun 12, 2008 12:39 PM

It's also a blast whenever ANYTHING smaller happens to cross Chompie's path. wham, it's g o n e!

So far Chomp has "claimed" about 3 acres as his own "turf", that's why I had to ask. He scurries around like (I hate to use this analogy) a dog, mark this tree, that rock, etc..

Its another hot muggy day today, so he's going roaming again.

Regards,
Wayne
-----

1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
0.0.1 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmello" adult super sweet temperment
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garters "spot" & "Zig"
2.2.0 Thamnophis radix Snow, Iowa snow & christmas snow het.
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - "Flame" red and white stripes
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis CB "Flame" & Melanistic
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

FR Jun 12, 2008 04:49 PM

The way its normally written is, monitors or other reptiles mark their territory. Unfortunately that leads to a huge misunderstanding.

Monitors mark objects within a territory, shared with many or several monitors, mainly of their own species, but not restricted to that.

We see that with many kinds of reptiles. Cheers

dekaybrown Jun 12, 2008 10:45 PM

Frank, I never really paid attention, especially with my snakes, I always figured they were just taking care of business.

Now with this monitor, it's so obvious and amusing to watch, in fact the whole difference in behavior from outside to in is interesting.

I'm a firm believer that psychological health is just as important as physical health, so I study behavior(and probably over think about it)since they cannot talk to us in english, behavior is the only way to determine what is going on in that head.

When I look into chompers eyes, its as if he is looking right through me, trying to figure me out as much as I am trying to figure him out.

Regards,
Wayne
-----

1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
0.0.1 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmello" adult super sweet temperment
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garters "spot" & "Zig"
2.2.0 Thamnophis radix Snow, Iowa snow & christmas snow het.
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - "Flame" red and white stripes
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis CB "Flame" & Melanistic
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

FR Jun 13, 2008 10:21 AM

Hi Wayne, A simple test for your snakes, clean their cages and see what they do. A great majority of the time, they immediately deficate in the middle of their new Clean cage. Why would they do that?

In a very simple way, the more advanced(adapted to a particular nitch) a reptile is, the less behavioral(to us) they seem. The more generalized they are, the more behavioral they seem. Monitors are very generalized. That is, they have normal leg development, tail, body, head, etc, for a reptile and it does not vary to much, from species to species.

Their greatest development is size. They occur from the very small to the very large, without changing basic structure. You know, strong parts mentioned above.

And yes, monitors appear to be very very very very behavioral. My success is totally based on addressing their behavioral needs. Their physical needs are very simple and basic for a reptile. Offer them a range and they love to pick their OWN conditions. Which is simple enough, I do not have to know anything.

Lets see how that works. People TELL their captive snakes what temps they need. In most cases, they do not support them with choices, just a narrow basic temp range. And yes, this has shown to work to a certain degree. You can have good success, but rarely approaching their genetic potentials.

With monitors, offering this narrow or even a wide range of conditions, does not work in attaining a full range of life events. In my experience, no matter how well you set up a cage, they eventually stall out and fail. It appears, behavioral needs are actually REQUIRED and not something extra.

And to a degree there are snakes like this, you know, the snakes that no one likes to keep because they do not fit the shoebox mode of keeping. Like, dekay snakes or coachwhips or racers or any snake that relys more on behavior and less on adaption. Or any simple variation from the norm.

Even snakes have layers upon layers of behaviors, not just "they" do this. Well varanids, are more like birds then like snakes. They are highly dependant on not just having behaviors, but on completeing behaviors. Not being able to complete behaviors often results in a compromised immune system(stress induced)

A very simple indication of this is nesting. Birds and monitors build particular types of nests, if they cannot build or find them, they fail reproductively. A snake will try to find a suitable nesting area, but if it cannot it will lay its eggs in the waterbowl. In most cases, a monitor will simply DIE. Maybe not during or after the first failed event, but history has shown, they WILL die within a very few failed attempts. Birds may be a bit more advanced, if they cannot nest, they simply do not produce eggs, again there are exceptions, but when is it wise to have exceptions guide you. Particularly when you do not "know" what your doing.

Unfortunately, there is far more to their behavior then nesting, but nesting is the big killer of females. So I have to mention it first.

"Social needs" is by far the most important aspect of varanid biology. The problem here is, most "old" thinking, by biologists and varanid experts is, "they"(varanids) are anti-social. Yet, I found them to be extremely social. To an unbelievable degree. And have been highly successful in observing that, TO AN UNBELIEVABLE DEGREE. Keeping them socially has resulted in a million, no, billion times more successful and repeated results, then keeping them as anti-social animals. Not to beat this to death but, we have seen more successful events with varanids in 17 years of this approach, then 99% of all the experts in any area of varanids, did before me. All of them put together. Not anyone of them.

Most breeders of social animals, birds, rodents, etc, understand, their is an age with these animals form and bond into social pairs or groups. Normally that is at a very young age. As in, in the nest, burrow, etc. Or soon after.

Raising these social animals in solitary conditions normally causes them to commonly become very anti-social and poor canidates for successful programs that include them getting along with eachother, such as reproduction. Of course, behavior is not concrete, so there is always a range of individual tolerances and the resulting range of results.

So yes, I agree, behavior is very important with varanids. More specifically, socially evolved behaviors. But still other non social behaviors are very important, like becoming stale in a cage. Even if the cage is a great cage.

Thanks for the oppertunitiy to run on and on, with this subject. Cheers

wstreps Jun 13, 2008 02:29 PM

" Hi Wayne, A simple test for your snakes, clean their cages and see what they do. A great majority of the time, they immediately deficate in the middle of their new Clean cage. Why would they do that? " FR

Probably for a variety of reasons. I wouldn't assume or imply this is some sort of territorial marking.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

FR Jun 13, 2008 04:17 PM

So don't clean the cage and see if they do that after you do all the same things. You know open and close the cage. And see how that differs to removing the substrate.

You see, you can test things if you like, but if you simply want to assume the zero effect side, you can do that too. The real point is, your assuming they are not marking and your not assuming they are. So, what you have is nothing. I hope that works for you. hahahahahahahahahahaha The point Ernie, you do not have to assume, you can actually look into it.

Which is the real point of threads, Your not suppose to believe something said, or not said, your suppose to become aware and maybe look into it. You know, check and see if there is something to it.

As this is a monitor forum, I will use monitors, we have dozens of cages, indoors and out. All we have to do is hose the cages a little and out come the monitors wagging their bums and rubbing them all over whatever was hosed off. Its totally repeatable. They also deficate after that too. Many of us know that monitors have see particular repeated habits on where and when they deficate. Cheers

wstreps Jun 14, 2008 09:20 AM

Actually If you read my post it's clear that I'm not assuming anything.I'm simply pointing out that in snakes it's incorrect to attribute defection after an activity such as cage cleaning as a form of territorial marking. Maybe this is how it works with monitors but in snakes not so.

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.con

FR Jun 14, 2008 12:31 PM

I am sorry Ernie, but your only pointing out that you have not noticed anything.

Heres the deal. Its a very repeatable event. Do it awhile and see, or at least keep track, then after you keep track for a long time, then we can talk. Cheers

wstreps Jun 14, 2008 01:37 PM

Actually Frank what I've pointed out is that your observation and conclusion is incorrect as it applies to snakes . For starters while it may be a repeatable event to a degree. Attributing this event to territorial marking of some sort is the wrong conclusion . I say this in a generalized way because when the term snakes is used that's really a very general description. This is a monitor forum so I won't go into more in dept detail as to why . I will only say that most of the reasons snakes defecate after an event such as cage cleaning have nothing to do with territorial marking .

"Do it awhile and see, or at least keep track, then after you keep track for a long time, then we can talk. " FR

Frank I'm not sure where your coming from with this , actually I do it's silly . Anyway I don't think I have to submit a resume` here of my experience , longevity , results , background however you want to say it. It stands up to anybody's including yours. Trying to pull the ole' my experience is greater then yours card holds no merit in this conversation .

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

sdslancs Jun 13, 2008 05:25 PM

Which is the real point of threads, Your not suppose to believe something said, or not said, your suppose to become aware and maybe look into it. You know, check and see if there is something to it.

It's tough being a newbie! There's a select few monitor keeper/breeders I try to learn from. On the subject of monitors being social, I only know what I read, or see in documentaries. Other than that, what I read on a forum. I thought monitors were social to some degree (komodo dragons?)and groups/trios kept together seem to act somewhat socially? It's just that this theory kind of got shot down on another forum, but now you've got me wondering again. It's hard 'not' to believe they are social to a degree, after reading your post. I just find this very interesting stuff, as it could be important to the health and wellbeing of my/everybody's monitors.

Thanks!

Susan.

FR Jun 13, 2008 08:28 PM

It does appear dragons act socially, yet, academics and non successful keepers, still argue they are not. Of course, I believe otherwise, from both many years of captive and natural experiences.

I understand why those think like they do. They go catch or acquire adult animals from different areas. Then introduce them to eachother and all manner of nasty occurs. This is part of being social. As social indicates groups, which really means, there are "other" groups. As with most social animals, these different groups often fight, and that includes us. As a people and even as monitor keepers. Cheers

holygouda Jun 13, 2008 09:15 PM

I fail to understand how you can call people "academics and non experienced keepers" just because they don't agree with you that monitors are social.

Could it be that perhaps captive monitors will adjust to a lifestyle that may appear social even though they are not normally social animals? They are in close proximity and usually have to share their resources causing them to appear social when in nature they might not be.

ahamp Jun 13, 2008 09:27 PM

I am beginning to wonder if we are all using a slightly different definition of social. I think of social animals like certain bird species who live in very close proximity, colonies for example. My question would be, what has been observed for wild monitors? And, how does captivity affect (change) that?

FR Jun 14, 2008 01:08 AM

This is great, no two animal species are socially exactly alike. SO of course, reptiles are not social like a flocking bird(some birds are not so soical) Or social like an ant, or social like a human(there are very nasty social behaviors with this species)

So to assign one difinition to social is strange and narrow minded. No two different types of animals are socially alike.

But that does not mean you can assign "social" to only one species. So I ask, what does social mean? Cheers

ahamp Jun 14, 2008 06:39 AM

That was kind of my point. This thread had several people arguing about "social" monitors. But "social" has many different interpretations. A monitor species that lives a solitary life, except for breeding; is that a social monitor? A species that lives in family groups; are they social? A species that lives in colonies; are they social?
I think better than assigning a term is to just talk about the behavior.

FR Jun 14, 2008 08:36 AM

Heres the real conversation, who says they only become social to breed. In my experience, that is far from all they do, and in fact, its only a very small part of what they do socially.

As I have said so many times, if you set up groups in a common sense method, they display a tital wave of social behaviors. That is, they seek others of their own kind for a number and various reasons.

First lets take feeding, "they" without question, inherently "know" how to feed in groups. They seek groups to obtain and consume certain types and sizes of prey. On the otherhand, they also seek to consume other foods by themselves. An example is, they use other monitors to tear apart large prey items and in particular carrion.

They tend to seek the same areas to shelter. An example and easy test(have done and seen it a zillion times) We have some large outdoor cages and indoor cages. In both conditions, you can make as many shelters as you like and they will tend to gather in the same shelters. There is two parts to this, daytime shelter and nightime shelter. Females will shelter in the same holes day and night, and males often shelter in the same holes at night, but not the day. To test this, all you have to do is remove the favorite shelter. If they keep gathering at the next best shelter. How they choose and how often they choose to be together AND apart is very telling. Of course, with behavior and in particular captive behavior, its as much based on what the person testing understands, as the inherent needs of the monitors. I you do not understand what conditions they are seeking, then you can not offer a benefitual test. You also need to understand that behavior is age and need related. Group or social behaviors, change with age in all animals.

Group behavior has a begining and moves on until it has an end.

Also all social groups, include some and exclude others. Thats how they become a group. Group size is directly effected by supporting conditions. That is, small groups all the way to large groups are directly controlled by enviornmental conditions. Simply put, superior conditions supports large groups, and inferior conditions supports small groups. The lowest conditions do not support social behavior. This is with all animals, not just monitors.

But enough, you see, I can and do ask some qood questions. The problem with those that think they are not social is, they "may" not have enough successful understanding or successful experience to actually find this in nature or repeat this in captivity.

In a nutshell, it appears this is more of a problem then what the actual monitors do.

I do have successful field experience as well. Cheers

holygouda Jun 14, 2008 11:28 AM

You keep mentioning success and all the successes you have. Yes, I agree that you have been very successful keeping monitors. You talk about their social aspects based on observations on your cages, but does that mean they are social outside of that? You constantly say that monitors know when they are in a cage and they know a light bulb is not the sun. Isn't it possible an animal (that is not as social as you claim them to be) can acclimate to a cage setup and become social because it's better for survival? I'm not saying that your monitors are not social, I just don't know how you can be so sure that all of them are, based on your observations of your setups.

Do monitors really seek groups to obtain and consume certain types of sizes of prey? Or do they just gather around the food because they are all hungry and will tolerate each other for the sake of sharing that certain resource?

I tend to think that monitors are not normally social but, similar to many animals, have the ability to acclimate and become social when put into an unfamiliar or caged environment.

winterhill Jun 14, 2008 03:12 PM

What has been your expirience in the field with monitors versus what you have witnessed with your groups in captivity? Based on what been posted I assume you have some pretty solid observations? Thanks

holygouda Jun 15, 2008 11:39 AM

Unfortunately I have not yet had the opportunity to gain any field experience with monitors. I just recently started getting into monitors a few years back and am hoping for a chance to travel but that time has not come thus far. As for captive observation I think Frank is one of the best resources there is. There seems to be a battle with people thinking they are social and non social and maybe they answer is they are both right. It was just a thought and possibly something to further look into?

FR Jun 14, 2008 08:03 PM

Oh I guess thats possible. Cheers

winterhill Jun 15, 2008 10:27 AM

others. I guess I should have been more clear my question was to holygoda...what has been there expirience that makes them feel monitors are not social? This may be a liitle out there but becuase introduction can be difficult in many herps what about for breeding purposes trying to collect from within populations. For instance the Aus. Gonna book says Storrs are really tough to breed as they are antisocial. What if you collected a small group from the same rocky out crop. Will chances go up for successful intro? Maybe the group dynamic is more complicated and one would still struggle?

FR Jun 14, 2008 12:59 AM

I can easily say this because, anyone who has actually worked with groups of monitors "has" to see, that the vast majority of their behaviors are socially inclined.

I am really trying to give them credit. Academics means, to not be proven or part of. That is, to be academic, is aside from, not applied.

And non successful, means not having achieved success.

If you have seen repeated success, you have to have seen the social aspects of monitors. This is my true opinion and that is what we offer here.

Here we offer on own opinions based on our own experience, and that I have a lot of.

If you were here, you would see monitors behaving VERY socially EVERY FRIGGIN DAY and in many many groups. So to say they are not social is foreign to me. Cheers

lizardheadmike Jun 14, 2008 01:00 PM

Hello All,

What I have noticed is that even the little brown anoles on my house have a social life. Constantly marking, chasing, circling and fighting other males as well as courting and breeding females on their turf... They are not forced to interact with eachother due to the confines of a cage. But even if they are caged they express these same behaviors. It was much more visible to me in Cyclura and other igs but I now am learning to understand the social activities of my monitors as they are subtle until you accept that you are seeing social behavior and then it is BOLD. Best to you- Mike

JME Jun 16, 2008 09:38 PM

Hi Mike,

What does an anole or an iguana have to do with a monitor? Isn't that like comparing an African Lion with a Siberian Tiger?

The problem that I have with the whole social debate is the fact that so many conclusions are based upon captive monitors. I can post pictures that supposedly prove social behavior all day long:

Lacies snuggling?

Pilbara pack hunting?

Kingorum bonding?

These pictures prove nothing as these animals are captive. Yet it would be very easy to claim that they prove social behavior.

I have no field experience but am of the belief that monitors are in fact territorial and, if given a choice, would prefer to be on their own.

The folks who study these animals in the field and have them living in their backyards (not in cages)are great sources of information when it comes to natural behavior in my opinion. For some reason, the social behavior of Aussie monitors seems to fascinate us Americans and we use the behavior of captive animals and jump to conclusions. Very odd.

I'd like to see pictures of monitors living in social groups in the wild. Posting pictures of captive animals does not prove anything.

sdslancs Jun 17, 2008 07:18 AM

am of the belief that monitors are in fact territorial

A quote from Daniel Bennett's book 'The Savannah Monitor Lizard'

habitat makes observing individuals difficult and there has never been a study of the behaviour of adult animals in the wild.As a result very little is known about the 'social sturcture' of savannah monitor populations. We know they are 'not' territorial, in the sense that they do not actively protect their activity area from other lizards

Susan.

wstreps Jun 17, 2008 08:43 AM

Hi, The use of the term "not territorial" is specially in reference to Savannah Monitors. I can attest to the fact that you can find them seemly peacefully cohabiting but this does not hold true for all species or even all African species. Interactions can be very violent resulting in serious injury or death. In some monitor species territoriality is an absolute.

Captivity alters the true nature of animals unnatural conditioning occurs this results in highly skewed findings when looking for natural behavioral patterns.

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles

JME Jun 17, 2008 11:38 AM

Susan,

Territorial was a poor choice of words on my part. What I'm trying to say is they do not like to cohabitate. If I put another male lace with my male lace it would get very ugly. Females are also tricky when housed together. My male and female crocs much prefer to live seperate from one another. They eat better, are calmer, and spend more time out of hiding.

Put a few savs in with your sav and see what happens.

sdslancs Jun 14, 2008 01:03 PM

Using wild Komodo Dragons as an example, you see them in groups, apparently being social, around burrows and carcasses. Who's to say they are not communicating with one another in subtle ways? They may not display 'obvious'signs of communication/interaction in the same way other species do, but does that mean it's not happening? Perhaps the majority of humans, are just not able to see what's 'really' going on. Maybe you have totally live and breath them, to start to understand what makes them tick?

Are crocodilians considered social? You see them hanging out together in close proximity and when feeding on a large carcass, there is cooperation within the group, as they take turns tearing off chunks of meat (if they all did a death roll at the same time, it wouldn't work)Is that considered 'social behavior'?

Aren't there different degrees of social behavior? Do we have to compare monitors to ants, chimps, meerkats etc, to say whether, or not they have social tendancies?

Susan.

lizardheadmike Jun 14, 2008 01:54 PM

Hello Susan,

The funny thing is that most people mention these same events with doubts(which I am not implying your a doubter) when yes there are social events at these times and there are many events that the monitors choose to expose when they cannot see us. I have and do still spend many hours(sometimes all night) observing my animals out of their sight- this is when it really gets exciting.
And speaking of crocs, thanks to Tom Crutchfield I had the experience of working with Cuban crocs which will nest communally and cooperatively guard their nest when eggs are present. By the way, when robbing the nests they would encircle us like a pack of wolves and launch attacks from all sides- exciting I tell you! Best to you all- Mike

tectovaranus Jun 15, 2008 10:48 AM

What is really foreign to me is the claim that the "academics" say monitors are not social or are anti-social, which is a complete over simplification of the literature and really just outright false.
If anyone is interested in the truth they should look into what has ACTUALLY been written, instead of taking someones word for it who has obviously not read or understood the written record.
I would agree that there is as much bad info as good out there, (maybe more bad) but don't understand why this promotion of ignorance is so easily accepted. Why not look into it for yourself?
Ben Aller

FR Jun 15, 2008 05:16 PM

its really the big named academics that come here and tell me I am wrong. Is that better? Thanks Ben

ahamp Jun 15, 2008 06:51 PM

I guess it depends on what you call big name. I have yet to see anyone I would call a big name in academia on this forum.

ahamp Jun 13, 2008 12:37 PM

If you wish to remain in charge, you had better mark over the top of theirs!

Just kidding ..... sort of. Never tried it, but often wondered how they would react.

dekaybrown Jun 16, 2008 07:45 AM

Sorry, I was outside all weekend, I set down this morning to share some more thoughts with Frank, and see I have a lot of reading to do.

It saddens me somewhat to see what started out as an excellent discussion spiral into what this one has.

The psychology of these animals is just as bit as important as any other facet of their existence.

However since they cannot speak to us in human languages, we must rely sole on observations, often subject to misinterpretation.

Keeping an open mind is very important. Some people will do things for different reasons, and look at animals with different eyes, and reach different conclusions.

Some breeders do it for money, some to document breeding behavior. The first wants profit, the second seeks knowledge.

The first is concerned with overhead, the second will run scrap metal to buy materials for new cages.

I hope I am making sense, opinions vary, observations are subject to the interpretation of the mind of the witness, conclusions have been proven wrong in the past, and shall do so for eternity.

Just because something is written in a book does not necessarily mean that it is cast in stone, nor even accurate for that matter.

Once man thought the world was flat, and stars were holes in the sky....

Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
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1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
0.0.1 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmello" adult super sweet temperment
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garters "spot" & "Zig"
the snow melted, sorry.
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - "Flame" red and white stripes
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis CB "Flame" & Melanistic
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

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