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Behavoiral stuff for Susan

FR Jun 16, 2008 06:41 PM

I will start by saying, we need to define what social means. Or at least establish some lose meaning. You see, academics normally attempt to assign hoofed stock behavior to reptiles, which clearly does not work, or warm blooded behavior to reptiles, again it won't work. I have asked them for a version of social that does apply to reptiles. I ask because monitors are not hoofed stock or ants, or fist or meerkats, or prariedogs, they are lizards.

Of course monitors most need a male to copulate with. I say mostly, because its not always needed.

But are there anyother reasons for them to attract other monitors into close proxsimity.

Of course they often share large prey items. This is known in captivity and in nature. We see they "know" how to feed with other monitors. So they can attain groups that offer an advantage of consuming large prey items.

I want to start with the most common social behavior we see, and its something I have never seen published anywhere(it may be, I just have not seen it or heard of it) This is the arm wrap. In ALL the species I have worked with, all have commonly do this arm wrap. Many others have seen this behavior, particularly on our forum.

Here is a pair doing this behavior. Again, we have seen all the species we have worked with do this. In fact, gender is not a restriction, as males will do this to males and females to females. Also, members of different species will also do this. ITs more about touch, they seem to "need" to touch others.

Here is a gouldi cross with mertens. They are in a large cage and they could be totally away from eachother, but they do not choose to be away from eachother, they choose to be in contact.

When trying to determine if something is "social" or not, you must try to understand that both attracting and repelling is part of being social. Anti-social is to repell all. Social is to attract others for a shared need. Social seems to be attributed to an emotional non physical need. The reality, all behaviors physically benefit a group or individual. How it occurs is what can be called physical or emotional. These animals do this arm warp on a daily basis, not only during copulation or even in the breeding season. They do it all the time.

Of course, there are many other reasons I see them as social. But Including others for reasons other then copulation is key to this understanding. For instance, we have cages that are indoor outdoor, and also have doors that connect to eachother. This means, a monitor can pick any one of four compartments. The problem is, they normally follow eachother from compartment to compartment. As this picture shows,

heres a trio of lacies that can be in anyone of four compartments, yet they normally stay together.

For fun, why aren't these monitors all scared up and fighting with eachother? In fact, in the last pic, the male lacie is alert to me, it will protect his girls.

Heres my favorite pic. Its a male lacie attending HIS FEMALE. He will follow her everywhere, year a round. His job is to be in proxsimity of her at all times.

This attending of the female YEAR A ROUND, is very interesting to me. Considering, the female only cycles for a few days a year. Why would it do that if it did not want to.

If you pay attention, you will notice there is a head positioning thats common place. Kinda like meerkats, their heads have a tendency to be parallel.
Cheers

Replies (21)

sdslancs Jun 16, 2008 07:09 PM

Thank you so much for that, Frank. Beautiful pictures, but much more. Like, 'a picture's worth a thousand words'!
I had seen the 'arm wrap' behavior, but never knew it was so common, just thought ' Aww, what a cute picture'. Now I can see, it's actually a 'behavior' shared by others than Argus (which I'd seen the picture of)

These are just some of the things that keep me questioning the 'monitors are non-social' belief.

It's all fuel for thought as far as I'm concerned and I'd love to see more from other keepers.

Thank you again!

Susan.

FR Jun 16, 2008 07:12 PM

Susan, that is only the start. not the whole or the end. just a start. More to come. Cheers

Neal_ Jun 16, 2008 07:39 PM

Good stuff. I see that parrell head thing a lot with my caudos. I don’t think it is just because they're “watching tennis”. Cheers

Neal_ Jun 16, 2008 07:48 PM

oops, i think that is spelled parallel

MikesMonitors Jun 17, 2008 07:54 AM

Frank
How about some photos like these (yours) of wild Monitors!
Mike

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Mike's Monitors!

FR Jun 17, 2008 09:08 AM

Why Mike? This is not a natural history forum, its about captive monitors. As I have said one million times. I could careless what they are in the wild, THEY(the monitors) are successful in nature and are not having a problem. On the otherhand, in captivity, we are highly unsuccessful and have a huge problem. I ask you, what percentage of failure do you have? What percentage of success compared to your failures? And more importantly, what percentage of failure is across the varanid keeping spectrum??? Those are important questions.

Captivity is where we need to "understand" monitors. In captivity is WHERE the problem is. Its here, where they are failing.

Mike, in all these years, you have one female thats doing well, one? No offense to you, but that only means YOU do not understand monitors, not wild monitors, not CAPTIVE monitors. In all the years only TWO female savs have had a small runout(a runout is where a female lays a number of clutches in one year) Then they died. In all these years Mike, two savs females. No offense Mike, but that is very very sad.

Again, to study something, is to gain benefit from that something. Knowledge is to be of use. So all this studying of wild animals is OF WHAT USE? No one is applying that knowledge to wild monitors, are they? For the most part, wild monitors only need habitat to exsist. That that away and they will be gone. It does not matter if they are social or not. It does not matter if we understand all their behavioral biology or not. Take away their land and they are gone.

So that knowledge "can be" mainly of benefit to captive monitors, where we need to understand what makes them tick, so we can SUCCEED with them in captivity. Its here that that wild "information" has fallen falt and is useless. Or so it appears. It appears the humans with the best scientific knowledge of varanids ARE THE WORSE AT KEEPING THEM.

Mike that is a simple equation. Knowledge equals success, not knowledge equals failure. Sir, that is common sense. Mike, someone has pulled the wool over your eyes. If someone, anyone, tells you they are expert in ANY subject and they continually fail at it, it simply means they are NOT an expert. At least in the subject in which they are failing. Do you understand that. This understanding is across the human board. Understanding or knowledge is SUPPOSE to result in success.

Yet, our varanid experts, at least the squeaky wheel individuals, keep going on about how smart(how much knowledge they have) yet keep on failing, day after day, year after year, with species after species. THE QUESTION, why do they have so much trouble, if they are so knowledgeable?

Which also makes the opposite comes to lite. They(these experts) constantly go from board to board and tell everyone that I am wrong, yet, I am highly successful with lots of species and repeatedly until its become simple and commonplace. For me to practice varanid understanding, and have commonplace highly successful results means only one thing, I have knowledge of THIS subject. I must have a working knowledge of varanid husbandry and they, those that fail, must not. You see Mike, its about that simple.

So back to the subject. As I have said to them, and now to you, this forum is about captive keeping and breeding of varanids. Its here that most are having a HUGE problem, its here that we as brothers in keeping these wonderful animals, NEED INFORMATION that works for us and OUR captives.

We do not need information that only works for wild monitors in nature, they are doing GREAT without us.

So stop it with the but what about wild monitors. That sir is only a approach to switch the subject and muddy the waters, so that some people can fool others to believe they are right or have some knowledge. When they may not in this area of captivity.

As long as we are on a forum where the subject is KEEPING MONITORS, the information must BENEFIT captive monitors. IF it does not, ITS BAD information, its out of context information, its useless information. No offense Mike, but any halfway intelligent person in any area of study, first eliminates useless noise, get rid of the bad information and concentrate of information that works. That is only common sense.

So stop with the arguing, and help with the actual reasons YOU AND I have success, sir, that will benefit other captive monitors. "But it may show some humans in poor lite", which I suppose is why some fine people are so squeaky. Cheers

MikesMonitors Jun 17, 2008 09:43 AM

I know you have been to Oz several times, I was just hoping you had ONE photo of a 3 pack of young lace haging out together, 2 Flavies arm in arm, and so on!

I agree with you then, in captivity they have no choice but to be social...THEY ARE STUCK WITH EACH OTHER IN A CAGE!
Just like your photos show!

Thanks for your input.
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

FR Jun 17, 2008 01:00 PM

You are the one bringing up out of context information and you're the one putting negative slants on this conversation.

For instance you said, in captivity, they are stuck with eachother, they have no choice. Yes they do sir. They should have a choice and you are suppose to offer them that. Maybe you cannot see that? Its your job as a keeper to give them choices, Its your job to make sure they get along and work well together. So don't go saying the captive monitors are stuck, with eachother. They are only stuck or forced, IF YOU ALLOW IT. I do not allow them to be stuck, I apply husbandry that allows them choices, OR THEY FAIL.

I practice methods such as raising them in groups, I practice methods of giving them options to get away from others if they want or need to. I practice methods of switching individuals until they find a mate or group they get along with. I try to understand when one is stressing another out and I do something about it. Sir, that is called HUSBANDRY. Sir, husbandry is not putting a bunch of lizards in a box and watching them kill eachother. Ok, that is husbandry, just very bad husbandry.

About them being social. Science says you cannot teach animals NEW behaviors. That is, base behaviors are inherent. Of course, you can manipulate the degree of social interaction or degree of solitary behaviors.

What I am showing here is, they have lots and lots and lots of inherent social appearing behaviors. Why not explore this instead of smokescreening with out of context questions. MIKE stay on the subject.

You say your not arguing but instead of helping, you are arguing for no apparent reason. Helping would be offering your real experiences, then we could discuss how they could be social or not. Mike, you and others argue because you somehow want me to be wrong. Guess what, I do not care about being wrong, But I do care about is, I have many monitors doing on a daily basis, what yours are doing now. And I have for almost two decades. You know, nice happy monitors laying clutch after clutch for no apparent reason. It happens here daily and monthly and yearly. So what if I am wrong, the monitors aren't concerned about that. Cheers

MikesMonitors Jun 17, 2008 01:24 PM

A FLIPPIN PHOTO OF THESE SOCIAL BEHAVIORS IN THE WILD!!

I know what Monitors are doing in captivity, I see the best of the best and the worst of the worst on these forums everyday!

Captivity is nothing new to anybody, wild social behavior is what I was asking for.

By the way Frank those are some great photos.
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

FR Jun 17, 2008 04:09 PM

OK, go see for yourself. I have, and I am fully satisfied they act and behave very much the same. Of course, they can run off individuals they want to run off and they can attract individuals they want to attract.

Still the problem is, CAPTIVITY, and the massive amount of failure. Of course you read about it, but what are you doing about it? Cheers and end of this thread for you, I said goodday.

MikesMonitors Jun 17, 2008 05:49 PM

HAHAHAHAHA!
Sun must be getting real hot out there!
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

FR Jun 18, 2008 08:56 AM

The point is Mike, people just talk. Even if they have no reason to. You do not have enough successful experience to form any real idea as to what monitors do or are. And neither do most of those others who say what they say. The reality is, you should not form an opinion, when you have no way to confirm or dismiss what your told. You should be aware of whats said, but surely you should not let it get in the way of something REAL. And keeping monitors is REAL.

Yes, the monitors are REAL, and the talk is for the most part, just talk(academic). That you choose to form strong opinions with a huge lack of successful experience, is something you should avoid. You should concentrate of what is allowing your recent success. Everything the monitors do is REAL. 99% of what is said about monitors is bullbeans/heresay/theory/supposition, etc.

Thats what I have done and its worked very well. The monitors tell me they are highly social/communal, and have provided me with superior successful results. With that in mind, why would I listen to you?? or anyother suedo expert with a huge lack of success. No offense Mike, but one working female over a dozen or so years of trying with many species is not something I would consider a good understanding of varanids. The same goes for the others who are so sure about their knowledge. So why would I listen to you? I have had hundreds of females do far more then your one. Why would I Mike???? Once you answer that, then you should think about why you believe what others say about monitors being social or not, considering their lack of success. Cheers

MikesMonitors Jun 18, 2008 09:58 AM

Frank
I never asked you to listen to me, just post a photo.

If you have this type of wild photo I'd love to see it, reguardless if this is a captive husbandry forum.
Heck I have posted photos of my dog taking a dump on this forum.

You are right about the talking part!
I don't have any strong opinion on this subject, you see I think they are "social" in captivity just because they have to to some degree. As for wild Monitors climbing on top of each other to get that first or last sliver of sunlight...like in your Mertens Flavie photo...I don't think so. I could be wrong! Show me Coach.

What I've seen in captivity.
IN CAPTIVITY, All of my "Tree" Monitors seemed "social" the only beefing came from nest guarding females.

With my Peachthroats they seem to be very "social".
As hatchlings through juvenile they seem to get along very well.
As sub-adults they brake off into pairs.
If I try to switch one here and one there they will fight and hurt each other. "Social"??

And then there was the Cummingi situation...I realize that was my mistake!
But is that "social" behavior?
Mike

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Mike's Monitors!

FR Jun 18, 2008 10:14 AM

I would rather keep in subject in context. It appears many are easily confused, so lets STAY on subject, please.

I you want a wild photo, I believe you can go to ozzie sites or many others, Why do you insist me do it here.

Or, if its a photo you want, why not start another thread, instead of hijacking this one for your personal wants?

Mike, be nice, and either stay of subject or start another thread.

If want to elaborate, then lets discuss your REAL experiences. That would be great. Cheers

JME Jun 17, 2008 03:09 PM

Frank,

Just want to be clear. Does this discussion have to do with the social behavior of captive monitors and not wild monitors? If so, they're two very different subjects.

I do, however, agree with Mike. I don't care how well a large monitor cage is built. They are still in very small quarters when compared to wild animals and forced to interact. Using captive behavior to jump to conclusions about natural behavior doesn't make sense to me.

Your captive breeding success has been terrific. I don't know whay you get so defensive as no one challeges it. However, what does it have to do with the question: Are monitors social?

FR Jun 17, 2008 04:17 PM

I am not sure about to make it anymore clear, I have said TEN THOUSAND TIMES its about captive monitors. I do think both wild and captives are the SAME monitors, but that is not important.

I am not defensive, why would I be. I am not having problems keeping and breeding captive monitors. I feel its very important to allow captive monitors to socialize and I believe its key to my success. I keep pairs and groups and have NO social problems other then toooo friggin many eggs.

So John, its really not about me, I am fine, But isn't the purpose of a forum on a particular subject, to increase the success of that subject? yes, I think so, someone tell me I am wrong and I will stop.

I have results that indicate they are very social, yet others without results, have theories. This I find funny and sad.

In your case, you will learn or hit a giant expensive wall. I have no doubt about that, the reason is, we are both working with the same animals, and those animals are what they are. They are not different because they are at your house or my house, or captivity or wild, ITS THE SAME ANIMALS. Cheers

JME Jun 17, 2008 05:22 PM

Actually it is important that you differentiate between captive and wild monitors. Thanks for clearing that up.

Now, can you help me with my anti-social croc monitors? Would group therapy help?

MikesMonitors Jun 17, 2008 06:47 PM

John
You need a smaller enclosure, I kept six 6'ers in a 8'L, 6'W, 8'H. They were very social, 2 big males would square off when on the ground together.
I only housed them like this for a short time...then it was 1.2.
Check your emails Brother!
Mike

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Mike's Monitors!

FR Jun 18, 2008 09:31 AM

Heres why, first I have said one million times, the focal point is captive monitors. Period and I have said that for many years. You seem to want to read what you want and dismiss what you do not want to hear. That sir is important. Not to make you right or wrong, but so you can actually learn. You need to learn to read what you do not want to hear.

If you take your crocs as an example.

I have said, ten million times, and you can go back and check if you like. The best method is to RAISE THEM TOGETHER, from as young as possible.

That you choose to avoid that is your problem. I have said many times, I will be far more successful, and faster, by raising babies, then buying adults that are haggard(a falconer term, older birds set in their ways)

And "Please" these are individual animals. So do not give me, so that works all the time and this does not work all the way. If you do that, just stop reading now and go on with your bad self.

By far the most successful method of allowing group/social/communal successful behavior is raising them together. After that the percentage drops and drops quickly. Of course you can go purchase a group from different sources and have it work out. But I would not put to much money on it.

Once you have anti social haggard individuals, its very difficult and there is no one way to fix it.

The next best method is to keeping giving them new choices. That is, try other individuals. Sometimes it will take 2 or sometimes ten, but normally they will accept someone.

Heres the deal, I can raise a group, then have one individual die or excessed. After the original pair or group, it becomes more difficult to add another individual/s. The older they get, the less tolerant or more picky they get, hmmmmmmm does that sould familiar. In most cases they expell any new individual. And that is with captive hatched and captive raised monitors, such as the gouldi complex and ackies. (species thought to be easy) Try storrs, hahahahahahahahahaha

Also, ITS ABOUT YOU. Your the keeper, your charges are a direct result of your knowledge and experience. If you do not know how to support a group or pair, nothing you try will work. You have to know what it takes before you judge the results.

With your smaller monitors, you keep making mistakes, simple common sense mistakes. Is that true?, if you did not make those mistakes, you have already have babies coming out of your ears, is that true? yet, answer these questions sir. Simple common sense mistakes. You simply did not know what was needed, and as you go along, your learning simple common sense things. Is that true?

Sir, that is experience. You have to learn to do this stuff, you will not learn it until you have to learn it. Just like your doing now.

But, instead of learning with an easy subject, you must think alot of yourself(I have no problem with that) and you take on the most difficult or amoung the most difficult, Croc monitors. Sir, the decision to do that is yours and is between you and your lamppost, but its surely not the best choice you can make. As with most education, its best to start at the bottom and work up. But you have chosen to start at the top and work down. Hmmmmmmmmm I hope that works for you. Most field varanid reseachers do that too(why they don't learn much) I think this is about personal ego. Some "must" thing they are above the simple and commonplace. (not me)

You know, I could careless about that, but it does hurt the monitors and not you. Also, you publish your attempts as if they are fact, and you have not achieved much yet. others copy you and the animals suffer.(this is why I get upset)

Yes, yes, I know, you hatched a few lacies, great and congrats. But if your going to learn, you need to set higher goals. You know, more then two clutches and done. You should want to allow many many clutches and then have the females slowly fade away. U know, something more normal.

So there u go, raise them from youth, or mix and match. And support their basic needs, food, shelter, social/communal choices.

Consider, there is no cage, not even yours, that a individual monitor can escape another, if one wants to get at it. Consider, Tiger whiptail lizards, chase eachother from 5 to 20 meters and they only get a foot. Which means, take the tagger out and try another. How easy is that. Oh I know, you make your own rules, and are dead strait on only using the animals you started with. Hmmmmmmmm isn't that a little boneheaded. You are making rules the animals do not have. Give them some credit, they have individual wants and needs.

Lastly, even communal animals NEED X amount of personal space. Your task is to figure that out. Not state, they are or are not social or communal. Good luck and cheers and I will think about OZ, are you serious?

JME Jun 19, 2008 07:53 PM

Frank,

I'm tough to talk too because I believe that you'll full of it 50% of the time and I don't roll over and play dead. I actually have a brain and that brain is been pretty good at calling B.S. over the years. It's served me very well.

Find me some hatchling crocs and I'll bail on the old haggard individuals. Are any available? No,they're not. How about hatchling Lacies, any available? No they are not. Did I have a choice but to by adult animals? No, I did not. Anyway I like the adult crocs and lacies and wouldn't get rid of them. The old male croc is a grump but I really like him.

Once again you speak without knowing the facts about me or the animals I keep. You mention that I should have dwarf monitors coming out of my ears. How? I've had Pilbara (only 2 females) for about a year, lost the first clutch to a dumb mistake, but have a clutch incubating that's now past 40 days. It's not hard. The Kingorum are tough to breed as I have two females. Still hoping that one of the males turns into a female, you know, sense they where raised together. I very recently acquired Caudos and hope to have luck with them soon. And I have the crosses that you sent me about 6, or so, weeks ago.

I didn't major in math but how does two female dwarf monitors = monitors coming out of my ears? I forgot, you're magic.

Frank, I could care less about how many eggs you hatch, etc., etc., etc. You do this full time and have hundreds of monitors. The eggs are to be expected. My breeding accomplishemnts include lace hatchlings (from haggard individuals) in the first year of ownership and Pilbara eggs that are due to hatch soon. These are my first monitors! I'm very pleased with my accomplshments and, so far, have a decent batting average.

My past breeding experience was with Cyclura before monitors. They bred every year for me. I have no reason to expect anything different with the monitors.

sincitydragons Jul 30, 2008 03:33 AM

Frank, I just want to say thanks for sharing your experience even if some don't appreciate it. I am 26 years old and have been keeping reptiles of all sorts since I was 5 years old. Since I was about 9 monitors have been my favorite due to a national geographic video of a sav monitor eating a spitting cobra. I have only recently started having small amounts of breeding success in colubrids and bearded dragons. Since I want to specialize in monitors I'm using the funds I make from the bearded dragons to start and so far I've not had much luck but I think that will change after reading some of your more recent post. What you say about the social behaviors makes perfect sense to me. Your right when you say that if you do not know you shouldn't be telling people how to breed monitors because less experienced keepers will gladly swallow bad information. By all means people should share what they've learned but don't tell someone to do something with their animal unless it's been proven to work time and time again. I've studied every book I could get my hands on when it comes to monitors and still I feel I've learned much more from this thread alone. Currently I have a tristis monitor, a black throat, a sumatran water, and a juvie pair of roughnecks. I'm trading the tristis for a trio of hatchling arguses to raise in hopes of breeding and as this point the two large monitors are only intended to be kept as pets. I'm also trying to sell some other animals so that I might get a small group of ackies. Is their any key advice that you would give me to general monitor husbandry? Thanks again.
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