Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm looking to get a few nice Pueblans that will hopefully be ready to breed next year. I saw an '05 male for sale, but he's got a lot of black tipping. So I'm just wondering if they all start out looking perfect and develop the tipping later?

I have two different lines of Andeans, and one line is a lot darker than the other. This would lead me to believe that not all Pueblans have black tipping, but I've never had any Pueblans, so that's why I'm asking. Thanks.

but most of them, and some more than others. the male in the pic is super clean and huge!

That's a beauty right there! I was just at Amazon Reptile Center and asked the manager about this too. She said she has two pueblans. One of them got pretty dark but the other one didn't. So I guess I should have bought some hatchlings or yearlings last year. I want to out cross my Florida x Hondurans (from Rainer) to some pueblans next year, but I still have no pueblans. They're pretty common though, I'm sure I'll find one or two really nice ones. I'm looking for apricots or maybe some sockheads.

Unlike some other milksnakes, Pueblans are usually prone to a dark pigment(melanin) suffusion, rather than actual scale "tipping" at the end of the scale. It gives the appearance of sort of an "over-spray" of dark spray paint. Many people in the hobby refer to this as "newspapering", because of it resembling newspaper print.

I don't really see the need to further hybridize it into an undescernible type of snake though, or ANY other type of snake for that matter......this is a fad that many seem to be compelled to do, because the ultimate outcome of this practice only helps destroy future lines of pure strain animals of ALL types that are in the hobby. This is something that many folks just don't understand,...or probably MORE importantly,...just don't care about in the least. This is sure to "back-fire" on the hobby itself, and affect everyone to a certain degree in the future.

You see, it's not really about "hating" hybrids because of what they might look like, or NOT look like,....but rather what ALL those HUGE numbers of hybrids that get produced get bred to down the line,....and so on, and so on, and so on..........

This is a "wheel" that hybrid breeders have gotten rolling, that will unfortunately never stop turning now.

This is something that really CANNOT be realistically argued with.

~Doug

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I have to role my eyes, and laugh when people say....."as long as hybrids are represented honestly, what's the big deal?"

The "BIG DEAL" is once that hybrid leaves that "honest" vender's table,......it, and other future offspring from "it" can, and WILL be sold later as whatever someone says they are, or they "thought" they were told it was, or whatever it seems to look closest to,.etc..........THAT'S the part that many can't seem to figure out. The dynamics of this hobby literally DICTATES that this happens ALL THE TIME!..

When people CONSTANTLY ask me....."what is this",...that is a DEFINITE sign that something's very wrong!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I love when he said he wanted to "outcross" his mutts with a pure pueblan.Kills me...Just outcross it to another one of the 50 combos out there if thats your cup of tea.Just "outcross" it to a lemon headed imperial turbo super perfect doughnut shedding pastel coral pink blushing yellow belly and be happy.

LOL.....

L8r Shannon

HAHAHHAHA!!!,.....absolutely!

I knew this would also get a response from you as well!..LOL!!

I'm working on some Imperial Puebduran Turbo Jungle Cornduran Hurricane Cubed het patternless animals as we speak!

But I think they would REALLY look exciting if I added just a few more things into the mix!,......otherwise,..I'm just not quite satisfied with them!...ha!

later!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I forgot to also mention to you,....that as soon as that project I mentioned gets old and boring(meaning as soon as they hatch), I'll hurry out and see what other worthy projects I can ruin!, and so on,...and so on, etc...etc...

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

How could you guys forget about the red breasted belly whompers that came from the apple and orange dingle hoppers. They also throw out some really neat moledurans!
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

I almost forgot about those coveted highly sought after "Moledurans" from the other forum!..hahaha!

Charlie,....I read your comment to TD on the other forum, and I just COULD NOT resist posting myself too!......what an absolute JOKE!

I feel sorry for the snake's really,...as they didn't ask to be created....

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

My issue with hybreds is that they often take away the best of what the snake has naturally. Corn snakes are cool because they are orange, black and reddish
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you can't improve on those
And milk snakes are cool WITH the black not without it




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..Doug
~ aka dougsnake

Gee, I'm so glad I could provide some humor for you. I don't recall using the word "pure" in that context, but if it "kills" you to twist my words and meaning, by all means do so.

Okay, I knew the hybrid issue was a big deal to some people, but I didn't realize that my thread about something else, wherein I casually mentioned the hybrids, would elicit such a reaction. The implication that people "don't care" about the effect that hybridizing has on future lines is understandable. However, I do care. I think you're assuming that most people are dishonest, when if fact it's probably only a small fraction of breeders who would knowingly label a hybrid as something it's not.

I can see that several people here have decided to berate a would be breeder of hybrid clutches in an attempt to keep hybrids from being produced. So in that spirit, I will actually consider not breeding them. If you guys make it anathema to buy a hybrid, I won't be able to sell them anyway. lol

I am humored that someone thought I was looking to eliminate the black from a milk snake. How quickly you guys got off topic and started jumping to conclusions based on misinterpretation is pretty comical. Cheers! Time to crack open a cold one and watch the Lakers vs. Celtics. Talk to you all later.

you said"wherein I casually mentioned the hybrids, would elicit such a reaction'
Thats like saying Bomb on a plabe when you come to the milksnake forum talking about how you plan to breed a p.o.s. hybrid to a milk.
Sorry but go talk about the cross in the hybrid forum man.You don't see us over there talking about"yeah I am going to breed my pueblan to my pueblan in a couple years" DUH!!!!!!!!!!!

It wasn't a attack but you act suprised after doing it?was up wit dat?

L8r Hybrid Hater

Too funny man! The thread wasn't even about hybrids. Excuse me for mentioning it. It's not like all I do is breed hybrids or something. Most of my kings/milks are not hybrids. Relax, don't worry, I'm not looking to flood the world with p.o.s. hybrids. All my current projects are non-hybrid.

So anyway, I'd be interested in your (Shannon) thoughts on the pueblans since you're an authority on them, but I guess the question has already been answered. Some get darker as they age, some don't. Maybe I'll just get some nice sockheads and breed them to each other. I like those a lot.

If anything more of a joke was made out of the post than an attack. Time for a little thicker skin when talking about hybrids. If you want to see some panties get frizzled talk about making hybrids with ball pythons on their forum.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

....I forgot about the game being on. The problem is not with the honest people that sell hybrids. The problem lies in the fact that joe schmo buys it and gets tired of said snake. He then sells to joe schmo #2 then so on and so on. Then it ends up in a pet shop where the morons there label it what it looks closest too. Then the unexperienced guy buys it as a cool looking whatever and breeds it to his line. Do you see the problem here. Another problem is we are only getting so many snakes from a certain area legally and once the pure lines run out thats it. Look at the nelsons and sinaloans in captivity. They are basically all in one the same now besides the few local animals.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

>> "I think you're assuming that most people are dishonest, when if fact it's probably only a small fraction of breeders who would knowingly label a hybrid as something it's not."

Wrong,.....it has absolutely nothing to do with dishonesty, OR honesty in most cases. However, what it DOES have EVERYTHING to do with, is what will happen to hybrid crosses, and certain man-made intergrades down the line as they get sold, and are bred with other animals.

I'm talking about what happens to the pure lines of animals in collections in the future,...not about some shlep at a show being sold a Puebladuran, instead of a Cornduran by some dude from a hybrid "snake-mill" that claimed it was something else, that has nothing to do with my point here at all.

If everyone had enough experience to know what they were looking at most of the time, it probably wouldn't be as bad as it is now,...but that certainly isn't the case. Many people in the hobby wouldn't know a pure species/subspecies of snake if it bit them right between the eyes!,...that's part of the very problem I'm referring to here.

Futhermore,....hybrids that look close, or very similar to a specific pure species, or subspecies of animal, tend to do the MOST damage to collections of inexperienced, or unsuspecting individuals that don't have a keen eye, and know for a fact what they have, and can and do end up being bred to whatever,...... and in turn, those offspring are sold as whatever, bought by whoever, and again the cycle is constantly repeated.

Very OBVIOUS crosses/hybrids, aren't quite as big of an immediate threat to the hobby,....initially that is, however, depending on what they are bred to later, and what THEIR offspring get bred to later on, and what they look like, and what they get sold as, and who breeds those to what, is a whole different story altogether.

As my first post CLEARLY stated,....when a VERY experienced herper CANNOT positively identify many of the snakes being bred today,.....THAT is the problem,.......meaning, if you cannot identify it, it is no longer ANYTHING,..... other than a "mutt" snake.

Hybrids hurt many pure lines eventually,.....pure lines CANNOT hurt hybrids,..as a matter of fact, hybrid breeders need animals of pure lineage to create hybrids in the first place,..otherwise, the hybridizer wouldn't even know what the crossed animal was a product of!.....THAT is true irony at it's best!..LOL!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I'm gonna let you have the last word, as I really wasn't looking to start a never ending argument. Yes, I understand your points. Thank you all for your opinions. I will reconsider further breeding of the hybrids I've got, which are very beautiful actually, and are definitely not pieces of sh!t IMHO.

I have seen quite a variety in tipping. Some have heavy tipping, while others seem to have none at all. I'm not sure if you could tell just by looking at a baby if it will tip or not. Best judgement would to see it's parents, or just buy an adult.

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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Yeah it's an adult that I was looking at, but it has a lot of black tipping, or "newspapering". I probably won't buy that one.

Regarding the hybridizing, which was not the intended topic of this thread..... I already have hybrids, Florida x Honduran. The breeder of those suggested crossing them to Pueblans, since Pueblans often make nice looking hybrids.

I do understand the argument against hybrids. However, 99% of breeders out there are not hybridizing, they are line breeding or crossing with other blood of the same sub species. I don't think it's quite the crisis that some people make it out to be. Obviously there is the potential for a hybrid to be unknowingly bred down the line, but there's just as good a chance that people will know they're hybrids and not try to pass them off as pure lines.

In any event, I was not looking to open an argument about the ethics of hybrids, so let's not turn this thread into that. Thank you.

I worked extensively with campbelli back in the 90's and had some really great lines of them to boot. The variations are great, from the corals to the oranges back in the day, to the wide-white banded to the sockheads, to the Halloweens to the oreos, etc etc etc. I've never experienced another snake having SO many non-recessive mutations that could be reproduced and modified with selective breeding. Sure the hypos and albinos and so on are nice with some milks (for some anyway), but the campbellis in my opinion are quite unique and carry varying phenotypcial appearance to please the masses. Not to mention they carry the ability to triple clutch in a single season, are manageable in size and demeanor, and are an all-around wonderful triangulum to keep and breed. Having said that, my first experience with hybridization came back in 1996 when a VERY prominent milksnake breeder offered a premium to me for the purchase of my Dave Blody orange Pueblan milks that, at the time, were the Maybachs of the Pueblan world. These were to be hybridized with the flavor of the times: the almighty albino ruthveni. Although the dollar amount was significant, i could not help but think of the INTEGRITY of the snakes. I turned this gentleman down several times advocating for what I thought was best BOTH for the integrity of the species and then the good of the hobby as a whole. About two years later i saw what became an "albino alterna" a la ruthveni influence. The nausea of it all.....
Not that I'm condemning you or anyone else for that matter, but think of the integrity of the species. It's twisted enough to consider how we manipulate these animals in captivity; from simulated brumations, to thawed rodents, to unnatural overall environment, to artificial and limited opportunities for thermoregulation, and so on.....we know that this is true fellas, so don't tackle me. But then to take two DISTINCT species and forcibly reproduce them (YES, forcibly just by the act of introduction) when, in the real world this would never ever occur. So what then is the point? Is it simply an impulse out of herpetological boredome? I don't know, but my opinion is that it SEVERELY fractures the natural integrity of it all. Doug makes a VERY valid point too as it also contaminates the purity of future generations and makes things, to be frank, QUESTIONABLE as to (again) the integrity of a species and the second guessing of what something "could be". I too see it quite often. If the urge is to play mad scientist, why not consider two species or subspecies that NATURALLY intergrade? I've attached a few pics of hard-copy photos taken many years ago of a couple of the many Pueblans that were in my collection. Males tend to be cleaner with campbelli, but I've had exceptions as well. But I really do want to champion and utterly stress that the integrity should be maintained as campbelli themselves, as with any species/ssp, and bred or line-bred purely. When all else fails, ask yourself "What would Jesus do?" (Shia LeBouef -- "Transformers". Thanks for listening.

Jerry Kruse

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I know exactly what your talking about. When I hear pastel kings, my skin crawls. The same about the alterna, and pueblans, and any other thing that was "professionally" made so to speak.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

Pastel "Moledurans",......what an interesting "ring"!

I see my next awesome project!..(sarcasm)..

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

This is one from my collection. I really like his clean banding throughout. He is over five years old. Hope you like him.
Ryan

EXCEPTIONAL!!!! Now thas what I be talkin' 'bout. Booyah.

Jerry

Yes that's a gorgeous Pueblan!! I'm seriously considering a pair of sockheads for some "non-hybrid" breeding.

First of all what is your name? It sounds like you are very interested in some nice pueblans and I think thats great.Just do us all a favor and keep your hybrids the way they are or if you plan on crossing them to a solid line bred animal like a pueblan just keep it to yourself or take it to the hybrid forum.Thats all we are saying.

anyway, here is a pair of adults that are super clean.Now the funny thing is there babies were nothing special? you just never know.right below is there clutch from last year.Maybe one or 2 are going to stay clean but it looks like most with have a good amount of tipping.

here is a adult male sockhead and he has some tipping but I think it looks good.

L8r Shannon

wow Shannon, those are great looking animals. I didn't know they could be THAT clean. Those black gaps are doing well by the way.
Ryan Nafts

Great to hear the gaps are doing good for you.They are great animals.

L8r Shannon

Hi Shannon, my name is Jason Dunn. I was going to buy some yearling sockheads that are on the classifieds right now, but apparently my area is not cost effective for the seller to ship to. That's okay though, I've probably got enough animals already.

I have two pairs of Andeans, one pair from Gary Liesen and one pair from Robert Seib. I was planning to cross those two lines, we'll see next year. The Robert Seib ones are definitely holding their color better. The ones from Gary are darker, but they are bigger.

I also have some Vivid line Sonoran Black Socks (splendida), S. Georgia Mosaic Easterns, Whitewall and het Whitewall Speckleds, Japp Koij line hypo Hondurans, Tang Albino Hondurans, and two pairs of Brooksi from Rainer, a Peanut Butter and het pair, and a pair of triple het for peanut butter, ghost and T- albino. So I've got plenty to do already. All I'm breeding this year is the Tang Albino Hondurans though.

Nice, sounds like you have your hands full already.LOL..
I alos have both lines of the inca andeans and yes Gary's are much darker.

L8r Shannon

So are you gonna cross the two lines of Andeans or line breed them? Robert even suggested adding a third line to the mix, but I don't think I'm gonna take it that far. One person told me that the Andeans in this country all came from like 8 animals in the first place. If that's true, there's probably not much point in crossing 3 different lines.

One correction to my previous post, my triple het brooksi are het for T- albino, hypo and axanthic, but not peanut butter. This is the milksnake forum though, so I guess that doesn't really matter anyway. lol

I will probably line breed them also.I think there was more than just 8 animals but if thats true thats a pretty good amount.
They aren't suffering from inbreeding thats for sure.
I have some orange ones I plugged into the inca line this year.So we will see what we get.

Shannon

Nice. I'll be interested to see the results of the orange Andean project. Does yours have orange just on the head band, or is it on the whole body?

I won't be breeding my Andeans until next year, so I guess I have time to decide if I'm gonna cross the lines or not. Maybe I'll line breed one female and cross the other.

Here is a pair of tangerine or orange phase.
this is the male.He is a screamer in person.as bright tangerine as any honduran.

here is one of the better females.She is pretty orange.

Shannon

Yeah man, those are some killer tangerine andeans! I would love to get some hatchlings from that project, especially if you bred them to an inca. Double het for tangerine inca would be the bomb!