Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just cut this from the University of Hawaii website:

9.1 SOCIAL BEHAVIOR
It is now time to define social interaction. As previously discussed, behavior comes in many forms--blinking, eating, reading, dancing, shooting, rioting, and warring. What then distinguishes social behavior? Behavior that is peculiarly social is oriented towards other selves. Such behavior apprehends another as a perceiving, thinking, Moral, intentional, and behaving person; considers the intentional or rational meaning of the other's field of expression; involves expectations about the other's acts and actions; and manifests an intention to invoke in another self certain experiences and intentions. What differentiates social from nonsocial behavior, then, is whether another self is taken into account in one's acts, actions, or practices.

For example, dodging and weaving through a crowd is not social behavior, usually. Others are considered as mere physical objects, as human barriers with certain reflexes. Neither is keeping in step in a parade social behavior. Other marchers are physical objects with which to coordinate one's movements. Neither is a surgical operation social behavior. The patient is only a biophysical object with certain associated potentialities and dispositions. However, let the actor become involved with another's self, as a person pushing through a crowd recognizing a friend, a marcher believing another is trying to get him out of step, or a surgeon operating on his son, and the whole meaning of the situation changes.

With this understanding of social, let me now define social acts, actions, and practices. A social act is any intention, aim, plan, purpose, and so on which encompasses another self. These may be affecting another's emotions, intentions, or beliefs; or anticipating another's acts, actions, or practices.1 Examples of social acts would be courtship, helping another run for a political office, teaching, buying a gift, or trying to embarrass an enemy.

Social actions then are directed towards accomplishing a social act. So long as their purpose is a social act, actions are social whether involving other selves or not, whether anticipating another's acts, actions, or practices. The actions of an adolescent running away from home and living in a commune for a year to prove his independence to his parents and those of a physicist working in an isolated laboratory for years on a secret weapon for U.S. defense are both social. And no less social are the actions of a girl combing her hair to look attractive for her date.

Now this is as referred to humans, but I would like to discuss reptile social: According to the literature reptiles are not social. I would like to focus here on a retile that I have been studying in nature for several years, Crotalus oreganus. Now this animal according to Kluaber (world authority on rattlesnakes) is not social. However,
I frequently observe neonate aggregations with parental care for weeks, communal denning, communal rookery use, male combat, courting and the like.
I have discussed this at depth with my good friend Kenneth Kardong, and whom I greatly admire and respect, but for all intensive purposes is an academic, but an evolutionary biologist, and definitely a snake person. Through our conversations it is very clear to me that Reptile social must be further discussed. As according to the above definition or any for that matter I consider then to be very SOCIAL. My challenge to those who think otherwise is please please disprove this assertion. So all you lurking academics please discuss. I’m not an academic, but I am a scientist, and I’m busy screening and assembling BACs libraries, so don’t be shy and make some time to discuss this publicly. I don't mind if I am wrong, after all science is 80% failure, I am very use to it.

Cheers,
Jason Dobry

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

While I'm by no means an academic guy I think I can come up with a few points of contention , Ok here go's

I think the question is to prove the animals aren't simply working off a set of genetically preprogrammed responses and instincts.

Do these animals go to these sites because of free will , a wanting to interact with others of their kind by choice ? Do the same pairs find each other year after year ? Is it in a way similar to what salmon do by returning the point of their origin to spawn ? Why and how are these den sites chosen ? Do you randomly witness these congregations or is always in conjunction with a specific set of circumstances ? Do the snakes arrive and leave in any specific order ?

How about what happens after ? When the animals begin to disperse do they become solitary or do they form into defined groups or pairs ? When you say very social what do you mean by that ? Do you feel there's a genuine recognition between specific animals a caring about being with each other or is the simple act of operating within a basic survival of fittest hierarchy enough to be considered very social ?

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

Hi Ernie,
I think you have a great set of questions which I will address the best I can. Your first question is basically why do they "choose" these sites? And are they "choosing them".
By all means I think the sites are chosen. They all have a specific group of aspects about the location. I will not say what these are because I don't want that public information, but they by all means are meeting certain environmental conditions. This is so much so that the conditions can be entered into GPS and find "potential sites" which in "theory" should support the snakes. Also there is a great deal which is unknown or not understood that could also be critical factors.
Your next question was do the same pairs find eachother year after year.
The snakes are living in these areas in closely related groups based on mark recapture data and mtDNA markers. I do not know if the same pairs are breeding every year, but I think a small number of individuals are the breeders in the group. I have one site with an old male that is huge. He patrols the entire area and is always hooked up with different females.
Do they have migrations like salmon? I don't think I would compare it to salmon.
Do they arrive and leave in some order? They utilize a fairly large area even during over winter there is not one den or hole that they all go into. More like 3-4 snakes by this tree and 5 by that rock. I have one population I think is about 20-30 adult snakes and mostly female. The smaller males are rarely seen, but when they are its all at once. For a couple weeks maybe or just a few days it depends on the weather or resources? They are definately found in groups. Hell even road collecting you might find two snake crossing at the same spot. This is year around. What about after dispersal? It depends on what the snake is doing. Up here the females usually don't breed every year it is more like biannial or triannial, but if it was a good year they could breed every year. In any case the gravid females congregate together and will stick with the neonates at the very least through the first shed, and then they get hard to find, but they don't go very far if your good at finding them they are around. The other snakes move from different habitat types as the season progresses and they become more disperse, but they are still moving as a group. Here are some habitat pics and you can see the options are basically unlimited, yet I keep finding them together.
Best,
Jason

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Hi Jason and thanks I know that was a barrage of questions.

Based on the answers what's established is some fragmented observations on activity and interaction. Answers that lead to many more questions ?

The word social can be pretty vague at times in the animal kingdom.

A possibility, The behaviors your observing as social could be considered that way in the sense that they involve the interactions of multiple individuals but in realty what is being seen is a species survival strategy that gives no consideration to any one individuals awareness of self. Overall species fitness is the goal. Behavior patterns are driven by an encoded process that will best allow the species to flourish.

Activity's such as parental care, reproduction and ritualistic combat things that are pointed to as social interaction can be induced in reptiles without social interaction .

Pythons exhibit parental care by incubating and guarding their eggs. Take the eggs away the snake sees you do it but continues incubating and guarding their eggs long after their gone. Ritualistic displays and combat in males that could be viewed as an important social aspect of behavior in reptiles can be induced with out the presents of a second animal. Another thing I've seen is lizards continually mistaking a similar color lizard of a completely different species for a rival . The oldest trick in the book is to physically rough up male snakes in combative species or introduce a shed skin to induce breeding. If the animals had true sense of social interaction would these simulations still work ? I ' ve seen tortoises beat up and breed rocks? Tortoises are considered a social reptile by some but yet can't differentiate a real tortoise from a rock ?

At what point does emotional content become relevant to the word social when a clear cut " team work system " such bees and ants is not in place . Is the ability to condition reptiles enough to support the idea of elevated emotional awareness ?

It's very natural for a person to observe an animals activity and to associate maybe even sub consciously associate this activity to some form of understood human behavior. It's the way we communicate. An example ,

Ask someone if insects have feelings and most will tell you , NO ! Then ask the same person what happens when you throw rocks at a bee hive? That same person will say they get MAD !

When individuals respond to each other in different ways (recognition ) is it recognition in an emotional sense or is it biological. In some species of reptiles I would bet my right arm they have emotional recognition . But ultimately we only have our own intuition to go by when looking for a sense of self in another creature. Some people have very strong beliefs in things that can't be proved , faith. In many ways that's what we're talking about. Like others I have a lot of faith in my ability to understand animals but I also understand that our perceptions don't always equal reality.

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

Thank you for the thoughtful response.
And your definitely right about my observations just raising more questions. I mostly just have questions.

I think I could go all kinds of places about a sense of self and what that means, so I will not talk about that hahahahaha we wouldn’t get anywhere! However I do think that reptiles have the ability to learn things, which means they have cognition of some sort and they also have a brain that is much more advanced than a fishes.

Specifically Rattlesnakes have an amazing olfactory system. We have shown that they can “post strike” track the mouse they struck through a maze of littermate sent trails. They cannot just track their venom or the mouse blood, feces, urine or anything like that everything imaginable has been tried. But we still cannot pinpoint it. There has been tons of work exploring these abilities.
Now is that just a series of chemical reactions? From a biochemical standpoint? So are you and I when it ultimately comes down to that.
But to take that to another level, can they use this amazing sense to know other individuals from each other?

I have a population that is 95% a specific genotype and the snakes five miles down the road in either direction have their own too. These are mitochondrial genotypes that are only passed maternally, implying that they originated from only one female. What does that mean? It could mean a million things, but that is my observation. I sampled 80 rattlesnakes. After I went and harassed the hell out of these snakes they got harder to find too, so I stopped catching them, and they became easier to find again. I have watched them for hours sharing specific basking areas, interacting with each other. They are coming and going doing behavioral jerking, even sometimes short little rattles. I’m not sure how that cannot be seen as social, at least as it is defined. That is foreign to me.

You mentioned about a turtle breeding a rock, but I can give millions of examples of just about any species of male breeding to other “things”, so I don’t think that is valid.
Your example about the python is intriguing, I would like to see that, do they all do this? I have some ball pythons from 03 I haven’t breed them yet, I only have one male and have been so busy with other things.
One could argue the point of captivity and poor nesting and then traumatic stress from an egg-robber or along those lines.
I have a lot of questions about that.

I think what you said about overall species fitness being the goal is true for all living things, and doesn’t have anything to do with being social or not.

If you are right and I hope your not, about this being a matter of faith, I do hope to keep my “perception” that they are social, intelligent and I can have some communication with these animals that is not just some automated response to the monkey trying to eat it. I think they are way cooler this way!

By the way nice website, good on you!
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Hi Jason , Interesting stuff and some compelling points.

Once again the meaning of social comes into play and it's broad interpretation. Humans and their semantics . How social is social ? If social means nothing more then interactions between multiple individuals short or long term completely devoid of proven thought process . Social in the way conditioning equals learning . Then I can't see anyway reptiles could not be considered social. If frogs are considered to exhibit social behavior why not reptiles ?

But if the term social is used in a more substantial way placing an anthropomorphism quality to the word, in species that exhibit a hierarchy based on out performing the next in line even at the cost of another's life. I think the possibility's surrounding if one animals actions are to another's on a conscious level have to be addressed. Proven ? To validate this deeper meaning. This is where I believe some people make the separation. Trying to avoid the bias created by anthropomorphism.

With insects the term social is a tight fit without knowing the animals mental capabilities. They are truly social without conscious decision . In some reptiles parts of their behavior are also a seemly tight fit . All vertebrates interact reproductively . They all have some sort of code of reproductive conduct that involves multiple individuals. Is this enough to make all of them all social ?

King Cobras build a nest, work as a Male female team guard the nest and if you've ever worked with them they show an incredible sense of " Knowing ". Social . This team work exist during breeding but at other times a king will gladly devour another king as quickly as it would any other snake. King cobras are to exist in Nature their breeding strategy is designed to give them the best chance for this but as I've been saying is a species social when individuals act alone placing their survival needs above all others ? Many of the actions reptiles exhibit that people call social in animals fall in line with what would be considered sociopathic in humans.

I have always treated animals like they could understand what I was doing. All kinds . I always feel like the living connection between species and individuals runs deep.To me it's almost impossible to believe that a creature as sophisticated as a reptile could be so intricately hard wired as to be absent of any ability to think. The question to myself is . Am I making my assertions because of some sub conscious anthropomorphism bias ? Maybe even Consciously. I try not to but maybe it's part of my hard wiring and others like me.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

Ps Yes the pythons are very consistent the dicribed behaviour this not being snake forum I don't want to get into the whole deal. I hope you understand.

n/p
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Hi Ernie, I really like your post, it shows a lot of thought.

I could discuss each point, but all that would accomplish is a lot of maybes, buts, it could be, it may be, or not.

The real point to my calling them social is, When treated in way that allows social behavior, WE have seen a proliferation of successful results. From rapid growth to sexual maturity, to highly successful reproduction, and to the behaviors that allow such things. Such as communal nesting and shared guarding of nests, and more. Remember Ernie, its in the results, not in the theory. Results sir.

The quality of these results are not being seen with animals kept singly or solitary. With these animals, you see lots of fighting, lots of nest disruption, lots of nest robbing. And lots of cuts and bruises, and yes, some low level success.

Of course if your alert, you can time when a female cycles and introduce a male and attain some level of success.

Then these folks who use this approach say such things as these monitors do not multiclutch, yet our groups multiclutch readily and without manipulation. No need to hibernate, or photoperiod, or raincycle, they just lay clutch after clutch as long as they have the energy to support it.

For instance, one of our females is gravid on her 61st clutch. I would love to hear of any other female kept in any way, that has approached that. And yes, we have lots of females that have approached that. Ernie, lots of females. Why Ernie? That is the point, why? what do I do to allow this? This is the question.

So please, instead of using selective comparasions of other reptiles, show me something. Show me comparable results that come for keeping them in a non social setting. That would be great. Cheers

I'll keep my comments relevant to captivity . You talk about how people fail with their monitors . I think they fail with pretty much everything. Their hamsters die , lizards , snakes, fish ..................and all for pretty much the same reasons.

Why are you so successful ? You know the recipe for breeding the animals you work with in captivity . Do I have to go on ? You know what I mean but others might not so...... Once you have the recipe you can start transposing it to other species, sub species ...get the factory going. You get the basic idea for the ingredients and from there it's just common sense to start cooking. What do you think the knowledge and skill level required to breed most reptiles is ? Some people hang their hat on breeding as if it's validation of their expertise in truly understanding the animal. When people start throwing their I've bred all these species list around like they invented the wheel to me it's almost silly.

Chicken farming . Breeding animals into the ground under captive conditions for the most part holds very little intrigue . You say you don't care about what they are in the wild only about how many eggs you can pull from your cages . That's what counts to you. I understand . It's the farmers goal to be productive .I won't get into all that now.

Captivity is not nature or a recreation of it. I don't understand why people think they can recreate the seasons , weather cycles etc. in a box ? If you can do this why bother with lizards ? Do something hard go make a universe . Simply simulating the appearance of nature is not recreating it. A bowl of wax fruit looks just like the real thing but go ahead and take a bite.

In captivity it doesn't matter so much what an animals instinctive behavior is or what it needs to do to survive in nature. Many adaptations are in response to what a species requires when surrounded by other species , prey and predator . In captivity these are useless . What does matter is that the basic elements for life goals are met. Temperature , food , compatible mates someplace to nest. Monitors are designed to be prolific the hard parts done. I think more then anything the housing is what gets people. It's not so much what monitors need it's that they need a lot more of it. Most can't house them right . The caging is more of a challenge then the animals.

The most common sense thing in the world is in species that naturally are territorial , fight all that nasty stuff , is if possible raising them up together from hatchlings. A no brainier if you plan on keeping a group together. They become conditioned to be accepting of each other . Everyone is happier. We have the ability with a little common sense to take animals that would normally be killing each other in the wild and make them act like best friends if we chose to take advantage of it. We condition them to be this way.ut it's important to start young.

Why do I think your animals are so productive in terms of numbers ? Like the chicken farmer knows how to get the most eggs you know how provide for your animals to produce the maximum. We both know that under captive conditions we can get our animals to produce far more then they would in nature. We can change the rules . It go's back to the recipe and what we do to improve it.

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

or introduce a shed skin to induce breeding. If the animals had true sense of social interaction would these simulations still work ?

Have you heard of using the skin off a dead lamb, or foal to 'fool' the mother into adopting an orphaned baby? Highly social animals, but it works!

I ' ve seen tortoises beat up and breed rocks? Tortoises are considered a social reptile by some but yet can't differentiate a real tortoise from a rock ?

I'm a bit confused by this one.
I thought desert tortoises were highly territorial? Are some others social? usure on that, but as far as males using 'foreign' objects when a female isn't available? That just shows the tortoise is not dumber than a rock!
(I think just about every species does it, don't they?)

Susan.

Well I've never used a rock but who knows?...LOL....TC

Lol, but hopefully, you're not a tortoise Tom?

I've had herps so long I get confused. Hell the lizards have more of a social life than I do [I think].....TC

Actually I like to think of myself as a large Python...LOL....TC

Are you feeding on rats, rabbits or pigs, hahahahahahahahaha oh that was bad. I guess it doesn't matter as long as your still feeding. hahahahahahahaha

Sheep are social by dominance hierarchy this is similar to what's seen in reptiles As I've said the word social is very broad in it's meaning. I thought I was clear that my reference to the use of outside stimulus to evoke behavior response was to demonstrate instinctual response as opposed to selective. How does this fit in to the social equation is my point.

The cross over of like behaviors in various species across the alleged evolutionary tree is what I like studying . I look for the " why " ? The simplest thing in the world would be just to say I've seen that enough I understand it. Why try to learn more. And there is a point I mean we can breed sheep to the point of saturation who cares what's beyond our current perceptions ? Me.

" thought desert tortoises were highly territorial? Are some others social? usure on that, but as far as males using 'foreign' objects when a female isn't available? That just shows the tortoise is not dumber than a rock! "

Some tortoises show no combative behavior. It's not the action it's the thought behind the action . When a dog go's for your leg doe's it think it's going for another dog ? What species do this is the presents of multiple breeding females ?

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

Just make to sure what I was trying say isn't missed again. My original comment was

" I ' ve seen tortoises beat up and breed rocks? Tortoises are considered a social reptile by some but yet can't differentiate a real tortoise from a rock ? "

I should have said they do this in when in mature breeding groups . I should have been more specific. Since I did not specify the presents of other animals I can see how it could be assumed I meant the tortoises were unaccompanied . Sorry if anyone couldn't follow.

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles

I am not sure what attempting to breed a rock means other then torts are randy. And they are, and they do attempt to cop anything that will let them. In groups or not.

I have pics of wild snakes in a breeding group, attemptingt to cop with rock crevices too. I guess in means, they aren't all that picky.

But I do not think it has anything to do with social or not, maybe about eyesight and randyness. Them torts are cute, hmmmmmmm maybe the rock was cute too. Cheers

They are all social in differing levels and in different ways than animals considered social by reference, say canines, humans, birds, etc.
Just because an animal does not behave just like a human or canine, does it mean that it is not social, no, it means it is social in its own way.
Social and not social in these instances are labels given by someone to fit their opinions. Man always gets himself into trouble labeling others.

They are all social in differing levels and in different ways than animals considered social by reference, say canines, humans, birds, etc.
Just because an animal does not behave just like a human or canine, does it mean that it is not social, no, it means it is social in its own way.

That's what I was asking about, but to most others it has to be a black or white issue, because when you do look at all the different levels of social interaction possible, FR would have to have the advantage over most, to observe what to others, would be imperceptible (sp?)

Susan.

May I interject for a moment?

Taking Franks cue, I just tried an experiment. We have kept this solitary anole (sorry to use the comparison, but multiple factors were involved in my choice) since christmas. Interesting to watch, yet so un-involved.

So with only $6 to lose, purchased another and placed it in with the one already here. The two have been staring each other down, bobbing heads and flashing dewlaps since.

Now on to regards of monitors and social interaction. Please open up and think this one through, it makes one wonder.

Example #1. A solitary monitor in an ideal enviroment, with perfect husbandry suddenly passes for no reason, it is replaced, what could be wrong with my husbandry skills? what happened?

Example #2. A little old lady falls in love with that baby sav at the pet store, knows nothing about husbandry, nor this forum. Has no acedemic nor otherwise scientific interest. She just wants a pet dinosaur, yet her monitor grows old, leads a good life. follows her around like a puppy, all the while with no leash or restraint. did I mention grows old...

Why is that?

My social dilema just got solved, A guy was at the pet store trying to find homes for his reptiles, including a SAV, and a mated pair of Iguanas that have clutched twice.

He has to move on July first, I'm not one to count chickens before they hatch, but if that pans out, every single lizard I have will have another of its own species to interact with.

This whole series of threads is excellent stuff, minds are reeling, folks are thinking, it's great.

There's even some territorial marking mingled in...

Regards,
Wayne
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1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
0.0.1 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmello" adult super sweet temperment
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - "Flame" red and white stripes
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis CB "Flame" & Melanistic
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

Example one, the ideal environment, means ample space, resources, and food for both lizards, if this is the case, the animal died from problems other than being placed with the other one. Unfortunately, most people do not know what a minimum adequate environment for 1 or 2 or more monitors is, so most probably I vote for the lizard died from stress and an inadequate environment.
The second example rings to similar of a fantasy story written by a former poster, and old lady who said hers would grow old and be like puppy dogs with her, they all died.
Most people would not know when a monitor is healthy, happy, is showing interest in you, enjoys your presence, or when it is sick, playing dead, or stressed out by your presence. This takes time to learn and how they show each of these, there is a big difference.

"Most people would not know when a monitor is healthy, happy, is showing interest in you, enjoys your presence, or when it is sick, playing dead, or stressed out by your presence. This takes time to learn and how they show each of these, there is a big difference."

Isn't that what Frank has been up to for years?

I personally can relate to the fantasy story, I think she is all over you-tube playing with her animals. It was not meant to be taken 100 percent literally, they were examples of scenarios.

So you absolutely positively without reservation do not believe that a monitor could possibly require social interaction to achieve a sound state of mind??

Once all the territorial hissing is sorted through, there are some very valid thoughts being exchanged and never has any series of threads compelled me to keep returning as this subject has.

One thing I can appreciate about lizard people as compared to snake people, is snake people worry more about external beauty, and lizard people are more concerned with intelligence and what the animal may be thinking.

Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey

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1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
0.0.1 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmello" adult super sweet temperment
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - "Flame" red and white stripes
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis CB "Flame" & Melanistic
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

I didnt say they dont require nor did I indicate that they dont need social interaction, in fact I believe that almost all lifeforms need social interaction whether from their own species, or from others.
It is hard to tell by the way you posted the examples you gave if you were just giving examples literally or seriously, thats a drawback of internet forums.
What I tried to get across in my responce was that in order to have happy healthy monitors living together they must have a minimum level of husbandry to support them in multiples. This isnt hard once you have done it sucessfully and learned from it, in fact it becomes easy to do.
Unfortunately most keepers are using small aquariums, decorative enclosures without adequate space, food, substrate, heat, etc for one, let alone 2 or more.
If properly supported they can thrive in groups, what FR is basically saying.
It would be great if the average keeper were to supply the adequate needed environment to keep multiples together, why, we would be swimming in CBB monitors and WC examples would become a much much smaller market.

Once again well thought, and well spoken also.

My sincere desire to elevate above "the average" keeper is why I have chosen to be here, and to discuss with successful keepers on ways to ensure that I do not become the next killer of dragons.

Now to return to the analogy, I have a personal friend whom I have known for years. When I first met her she had a mated pair of fully grown Iguanas, healthy happy and flourishing.

The female had been through surgery, they both have regular vet visits, they sleep on the foot of her bed, and run all over her patio deck.

I am not trying to compare apples to oranges, the point is that Iguana failures parallel monitor failures, probably even worse, since Igs are more plentiful, "cuter" cheaper and the fact that they won't need to murder rodents to feed it, only draws more unwitting people to buy them.

There is a man "Henry Lizardlover" who by "scholar standards" may seem like a real goofball, he lives in a house full of lizards, yet his do grow old, and breed.

Yes husbandry is important, yes the same valid points are made time and again about enclosure size, and temperatures, diet, etc.

And more than once I have felt as if I was demanded to disclose the exact setup, and more than once I have described it. By the standards of most of you here, our monitor has enough space.

When the weather is nice, our monitor spends a lot of time out doors, we live on a 40 acre lot, way out in the boonies, so I feel very fortunate to have this space available, so already our animal has seen more exercise and activity than most of the ones crammed into a box in a 3 story apartment somewhere would ever get.

Since we all care about the mortality rate of captives, It seems as if a little collaboration could be possible, One would like to think we are all on the same page at least in that area.

Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
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1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
0.0.1 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmello" adult super sweet temperment
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - "Flame" red and white stripes
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis CB "Flame" & Melanistic
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

Oh I forgot, Suzanne has had those 2 lizards 8 years and still going. Even had a cancer tumor removed at the vet last year.

She may be a rarity, but anyone who can sustain animals that are that hard to keep for as long as she has, must be doing something right.

Regards,
Wayne
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1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
0.0.1 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmello" adult super sweet temperment
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - "Flame" red and white stripes
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis CB "Flame" & Melanistic
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

Wayne,
Keep in mind that there's more to successfully introducing possible cage mates than just putting one into another's cage. You may already know this & I don't want to insult your intelligence but I don't want you (or anyone just reading these posts) to be under the wrong impression.

It's usually best to introduce animals on neutral ground to avoid territorial issues. Plenty of room to escape the other and/or hide from the other if/when necessary is good, too. It's also best to let 'em work things out theirself, without human interaction, unless it comes to severe injuries. A bite or two here & there usually isn't a problem.

Catch ya later!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Mike, Glad you chimed in.

I am never insulted by anything you say.

Regards,
Wayne
-----

1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
0.0.1 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmello" adult super sweet temperment
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - "Flame" red and white stripes
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis CB "Flame" & Melanistic
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

Glad to hear it. I'm not always smooth in my posts, even when I try to be, so I just wanted to make sure you knew it.

Catch ya later!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com