Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here is my situation, my bearded dragon has been the vet like 4 or 5 times in the past few weeks. I originally brought him in cause i was going to board him while i was away on vacation with my family. They had to do an examination to see if he was ok before they could execpt him and they found that he has pin worms so they treated him for while i was away. But the docotor told me all this stuff i had to correct with the way i took care of him.My beardie is 2 years old and at the vet weighed 290 grams( i know its underweight cause of the pinworms), I had him set up in a 40 gallon breeder with play sand as a bedding, i was feeding him crickets regularly like once a 15 once a day along with romaine lettuce and parsly and carrots, i had a wiess lite which was supose to be uvb and uva and heat and all that good stuff which ekpt the basking spot around 95 degrees and regulated the rest of the cage so it was like 86 in the middle and like 78 in the coolside. The doctor said i needed to get him off playsand and put him on reptile carpet and get rid of the wiess lite he said it was garbarge and get a strip light for uva and uvb and another lite for basking, he said i needed to get rid of the crickets and stop feeding them completely and feed him like red leaf lettuce romaine carrots and stop dusting his food it doesn't do anything for them once there over a year old and allthis stuff that made me really upset cause like i thought i was doing a good job but still when i read books and stuff it all contradicts what he said. So what i decided a good thing to do was to call the place i bought him so i called radical reptiles which is run by tim curran he seems like a good guy he has a great view on how to take care of reptiles from what i think anyway i told him my situation and he said he completely disagreed with the vet and he said that bearded dragons have lived on sand for houndreds and years and have done fine, they eat bugs witch includes crickets, and he said the wiess lite is what zoo's use for there reptiles and he asked me if my vet was an exotic vet and told him that they had his 10 commandments of lizard keeping on the wall and stuff but its like now i'm really confused cause what am i suposed to do, its like listen to someone that has gone to school and learned and trained for all this stuff or do i listen to a guy that seems more logical but just owns a pet store in north east philly( not to steal his thunder, he deffinatly seems to know what he is talking about) but its like what do i do you know? It seemed like when i listend to Tim i my beardie was doing sooo great which makes me want to lsiten to him again and now it just seems like i have fallen into all these problems like i had to take my beardie back in a few days ago cause he still has pinworms and hes having problems shedding now and it looks like he has some sort of fungus so its like just a big mess i don't know what to do. Now i have him set up in the 40 gallon breeder with a repti-glo 150 watt basking light which keeps the basking area around 103 degrees then i have a repti-glo 5.0 uvb uva strip light, hes on reptile carpet and i just went to beautiful dragons and i've been going by that with what to feed him so far i've been feeeding him romaine lettuce, red leaf lettuce sometimes, endive, carrots somtimes but i;ve noticed but even that stuff aint very good i need to get off the romaine and red leaf and carrots they should only be fed on occasion occording to them, i need to endive and collard, dandilion. mustard, raspberries and all that good stuff some i'm going to the store tomorrow to get all that stuff, but it just doesn't seem like my beardie is as happy like it seems like he was so much better before i ever went to the vet so i am just so confused. i don't know if anyonne has any advice i just needed to vent... thanks (sorry that this was so long)

Man.........there were some SUPER long sentences in that, LOL.....just kidding around. Well, I would change some of your ways of keeping your dragon. I never had a problem with sand, but I dont use it anymore either....washed childrens playsand is the only type I would use though. If you are treating with meds I would use something more along the lines of paper towels or newspaper to change it out daily. I never heard of the light you have, but I would recommend the reptisun 5.0 for uvb, and a seperate basking light. You can ditch the lettuce. Go with some collards, mustard, turnip, escarole, maybe some kale mixed in, try some different veggies mixed in occasionally, and add in some rep cal pellets as well. No reason to do away with crix, unless you want to feed strictly pellets and veggies. If your dragon is good with that, then that is also a route to go. I personally like to see them get excited about chasing down tons of crix and think it is good for them. Get your dragon treated......keep him warm(maybe increase basking site a bit to 110-115), keep it well lit and bright(if you are using a tank like you said you may want to consider using white poster board on the two sides and back to keep in light or even the scenery that you can buy at your petshop would work), and offer food and water and hopefully he will be back to normal.

I don't always listen to vets for several reasons. Especially in the area of herps and exotics, alot do not have pets and therefore do not have any personal experience. Things change when it comes to science and when you don't attend workshops and such on a regular basis, what you learn in school twenty years ago could have changed drastically.

Breakthroughs are generally made by keepers of herps as they strive to provide the best care. I guess what I'm saying is that you can become a veterinarian and not have very limited experience with herps. Those years of schooling does not compare to what a hobbyist can learn from years of dedicated care to their herps.

I believe veterinarians are very important, but very few are experienced in this area and even then not many keep up with current trends or breakthroughs and they could be telling you "facts" that have been proven otherwise.

You poor thing! I am so angry at your vet. You definatly need to listed to the guy you got your lizard from.

Sand: There HAVE been problems with dragons eating sand and getting impacted. Repti-Carpet is fine too, but to tell you to change was not right. My dragons all live on sand. All my babies over 6 weeks old are on sand. I have never had ANY problems with sand, and I have had a lot of dragons on it. But again, there have been problems, but they are few and far between..they also are mostly very small dragosn that are a few weeks old, or dragons that were switched to samd when they were older, and had never seen it before. I believe that my dragons like it MUCH better them carpet. They like to dig and stuff.

Crickets: I don't remember how old your dragons is. Up until about 6 months old dragons need to get most of thier nutrients from crickets so they can grow properly. Cricket are what dragons eat, they eat them their whole lives. Some people argue that you do not have to feed your dragon crickets, and you can replace them with the right pellet/greens diet, but I have not yet heard anyone say that it is WRONG to feed crickets. Many Do say it is wrong NOT to feed crickets though. If your dragon is over a year old 15-20 crickets a day is about right. Thats what my non-breeding adults eat.

Calcium: If your dragon is under 6 months old I believe you should dust your crickets everyday. If your dragon is over a year old, you can dust them every other day. Never less then every 3 days. Your vet is COMPLETLY wrong in this area. Please don't listen to him.

Lighting: I believe the light you were using was ok, but I am not familiar with it. Was it a MVB? If it was, it was fine to use. The lights he had you switch to are ok too though...but again unnecessary expense, and it made you feel bad. Is your lizard within 12 inches of the new light? If not he is not getting the UVB from it.

OK ABOUT THAT FUNGUS:

It is very possible, and even likely that because of all of the medication the vet is giving your dragon he has devolped YELLOW FUNGUS. This appears to be cause by antibiotics killing off all of the good bacteria in your dragon, and allowing yeast levels to get out of control. It IS deadly if not treated. Please make another post titled YELLOW FUNGUS, and one of the people that knows more will help you. MANY VETS DO NOT KNOW HOW TO TREAT IT, but some people on the forum have some answers.

Also, remember that MOST vets when to school and learned about cats and dogs. They didn't go to school for reptiles, they don;t know about them. No vet could know the proper care of EVERY reptile, because they vary so much! You should call your vet and tell him that after extensive research you have found that many of the things he told you about care have shown to be incorrect. Ask him to do some research online into the care of bearded dragons, and maybe point out some of the specifics that he is mistake on, ESPECIALLY about the crickets and calcium. Please, without threatening him, try to make him understand that his advice will HURT people's animals. BE POLITE.

Let us know.

Jen
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MY Dragons!!

#1 - medicine is not a science and Vets are not scientists. Yes there is science involved but a lot of it is guessing, and for many vets when it comes to exotic animals thats all they do is guess. (Sorry if I offended any vets out there, I hope you understand) there are many many controversial issues when it comes to medicine and care of animals. Do this, no do anything but this, don't do that, you need this... all contradicting each other.

So take a breath and try this. Ask your vet how many baby dragons he has raised successfully? Then talk to some people on this forum some with a medical background that would impress anyone (you know who you are). There are people here who have raised hundreds, thousands of babies. School is great but nothing beats experience. These people have done it and seen it all so you have come to the right place.

Yes there will be arguments here too about what is best, UV no UV, Sand or carpet or wood or newspaper, pellets or crix... but you will get the big picture. There are something’s that are wrong like no supplements at all. There are some things that are questionable (at least to some) like UV light. And there are some things that you have to make a choice between without a right or wrong like the sand or carpet, crix or pellets...

I suggest you go to dragon web sites and read the care sheets and get the info from people breeding dragons and raising them, living with them every day. Find the things that the care sheets have in common and use your best judgment. A great place to start is Melissa Kaplan's site http://www.anapsid.org
Then I would go to http://www.dachiu.com Rob and Vickie raise more dragons in a year than any vet will see in a lifetime! They have been at it for nearly a decade. They know their stuff and they share info with everyone. They are the greatest and their site is loaded with wonderful pictures and info.

So breathe...
Good luck

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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

Dragons have been on sand for thousands of years, that is true, but moving across it, not living on the same sand day after day. In the wild they are not exposed to their own feces, so there is little chance for re-infecting themselves over and over. From reading and thing posted here, we know that many bacteria, parasite, yeast, etc are a normal part of their digestive tract. We also know that many of those and the eggs from them are excreted from their bodies, not only in feces and urates, but there are fluids also that come out and you rarely see those, they are there though. What happens when they live in some of those cast off parasites or eggs and re-ingest them by tasting their basking areas or laying in sand that has pinworms?

They will build up in excess in their system...... one of the first things we do when treating animals is move them paper towels or newspaper or carpet that can be washed daily if needed...... Why? its a more sterile and easier to keep clean environment.

It is our personal choice to use a combination substrate and not all sand, but that's what it is..... our personal choice, it works for us.

I do not agree that the supplement are no good or of use for them, as long as the animals is not showing any signs of an excess... why not supplement? We have rehabbed many reptiles with MBD and other problems from lack of calcium and supplements and seen remarkable improvement, IN ADULTS.

AS long as the leading authorities in Reptile Medical continue to agree that supplements are advisable and we see the results that back that, we will continue to use them.

You temps are good, your set up sounds fine and your husbandry is better than many dragons have. I am not familiar with the light you mention and can only find info on it German.... where do you get it and is there a website?

So, the dragon has a pinworm problem ( that is not uncommon) and you think that he is underweight from that (although depending on the length of your dragon, that weight is not bad).

Treat the worms and see if he gains weight and fills out, it not a real hard thing to lower, improve the diet to more variety and heavy greens and squashes. You have done a good job with him, a little room for improvement, but that is easy enough to correct.

Like Bennett said, it comes down to personal choice and what works for you and him.

#1 - medicine is not a science and Vets are not scientists. Yes there is science involved but a lot of it is guessing, and for many vets when it comes to exotic animals thats all they do is guess. (Sorry if I offended any vets out there, I hope you understand) there are many many controversial issues when it comes to medicine and care of animals. Do this, no do anything but this, don't do that, you need this... all contradicting each other.

So take a breath and try this. Ask your vet how many baby dragons he has raised successfully? Then talk to some people on this forum some with a medical background that would impress anyone (you know who you are). There are people here who have raised hundreds, thousands of babies. School is great but nothing beats experience. These people have done it and seen it all so you have come to the right place.

Yes there will be arguments here too about what is best, UV no UV, Sand or carpet or wood or newspaper, pellets or crix... but you will get the big picture. There are something’s that are wrong like no supplements at all. There are some things that are questionable (at least to some) like UV light. And there are some things that you have to make a choice between without a right or wrong like the sand or carpet, crix or pellets...

I suggest you go to dragon web sites and read the care sheets and get the info from people breeding dragons and raising them, living with them every day. Find the things that the care sheets have in common and use your best judgment. A great place to start is Melissa Kaplan's site http://www.anapsid.org
Then I would go to http://www.dachiu.com Rob and Vickie raise more dragons in a year than any vet will see in a lifetime! They have been at it for nearly a decade. They know their stuff and they share info with everyone. They are the greatest and their site is loaded with wonderful pictures and info.

So breathe...
Good luck

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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

Strange, very strange. I've heard excellent things and i've heard horrible things about Tim Curran. I know the area, but haven't yet been to the store. I do suggest that you read on his website what he says about bearded dragons. http://radical-reptiles.herpetology.com/bdragons.html . I found the information all to be very good. Pinworms aren't Tim's fault. I don't think your vet is wrong to say to remove the sand, it won't hurt anything. However, the vet isn't right to stop supplementing. If you're supplementing, it shouldn't make a difference if you use the Weis Light or whatever either.