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Update On Mystery Mojave

fgs Jun 19, 2008 02:03 PM

The first photo is of the normal or not so normal mother of the mystery mojave clutch. This photo was taken while she was gravid. I wondered even at the begining of the season if she was something special.

The second photo is of one of the mystery mohaves face to face with a half brother that hatched out from a another clutch two days ago.

The third photo is of one of the mystery mohaves along side one of its sibling mohaves from the same clutch. If you look carefully you can see another mystery mojave in the back ground. There seems to be at least two to three mystery mohaves and three normal mahaves in this clutch.

I'm more convinced than ever that there is something very different going on with this clutch.

I'll keep you all informed of post hatch and post shed photos.

Comments please.

Brian

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

Replies (23)

pitoon Jun 19, 2008 02:26 PM

you can definitely see a difference in the pics so i can only imagine in person.

i'd say give them to their first shed and she how they look then. if those light ones stay light. you might have a hidden gene.

i'd keep them for sure and see if you can produce a super from them.

awesome!

Pitoon

fgs Jun 19, 2008 02:28 PM

Pitoon:

You're reading my mind.....

Brian

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

pitoon Jun 19, 2008 03:10 PM

Great minds think alike!

The closest thing i can think of that is comparable in theory is the "Platinum Complex" consisting of the Platinum, Lesser, Sib. Platinum, Lucy's.

Pitoon

fgs Jun 19, 2008 03:56 PM

Pitoon:

My gut feeling is that the female is the key to this unique look. My guess is that she might be a fire or the equivalent of and the combination of this breeding has thrown these very unique looking mohaves.

I produced 11 Mohaves in 07 all fathered by the same father of all of my 08 mojave clutches. They came out showing huge amounts of blushing, but nothing colored like this clutch.

Here is a photo I took of one of the mystery mohaves last week when I slit the eggs.

My hope is that the super of these mohaves will be a very clean white snake.

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

pitoon Jun 19, 2008 04:40 PM

the female could have a role in it. but i think the only way to really be sure is to grow these up and breed them. i HATE the waiting game, lol!

i see a difference between yours and normal looking mojaves, but i really think you should be able to tell something after the first shed or two.

i know how you feel, i just picked up 1.2 CH while i was up in germany for work 2 weeks ago. tell me what they look like to you, i have my own thoughts about them. one female might be ready this upcoming season, but for sure both females will be ready next season. i can't wait!!! i hope that they prove out!!!

Pitoon




fgs Jun 19, 2008 04:50 PM

Pitoon:

I'm sorry, but I can't access your photos.

Brian

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

pitoon Jun 19, 2008 05:08 PM

that's strange they should come right up, they're hosted on my site.

let me try again.........






fgs Jun 19, 2008 05:15 PM

Thanks now I see them.

They all look very interesting. Good luck on prooving them out.

Brian
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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

Carlos_F Jun 19, 2008 10:45 PM

I would say she isn't a Fire because the Fire gene isn't compatible with the genes that make Blue Eyed Supers like the Mojave gene; Fires make Black Eyed Supers. Thats why Ralph has hit on the Fire/Lesser and the YB-Goblin/Lesser and the YB-Goblin/Phantom without making a cross that is anything more than an overlap of two separate mutations.

You might have some variant Mojaves that aren't genetic or your female may turn out to be a Phantom or Russo or Mystery Gene or something new in the "White Snake Complex". If it turns out that your female is a genetic player in the "White Snake Complex" then I wouldn't expect "supers" from those new Mojaves because they would genetically be "supers" already meaning that their offspring when bred to a normal would either be a Mojave or whatever gene their mother is but no crosses or normals. The good news though would be that your birthing female would have similar results when bred to one of the other "White Snake Complex" genes.

Carlos_F Jun 19, 2008 10:29 PM

There is more to the "Platinum/White Snake Complex" than that.

Lessers
Phantoms
Mojaves
Russos
Mystery Gene

and all the combos they make.

Lesser x Lesser = White Snake

Lesser x Phantom = White Snake

Lesser x Mojave = White Snake

Lesser x Russo = ???

Lesser x Mystery Gene = Platinum

Phantom x Phantom = Super Phantoms

Phantom x Mojave = ???

Phantom x Russo = ???

Phantom x Mystery Gene = Phantom 44's

Mojave x Mojave = Super Mojave

Mojave x Russo = ???

Mojave x Mystery Gene = ???

Russo x Russo = White Snake

Russo x Mystery Gene = ???

Mystery Gene x Mystery Gene = ???

Now you could add Butters to the list but I think that Butters and Lessers are the same mutation. I would also include the Special Gene that makes Crystals in there as well but that remains to be seen.

pitoon Jun 20, 2008 01:31 AM

I agree with you but you are combining all mutations that can create a "white snake".

I was specifically refering to the "Platinum Complex" and the powers of using a Sib. Platinum bred to a Platinum and Lesser.
Basically the Sib. Platinum at Het Platinums, while the Lesser is a varient of the Platinum.

Butters and Lessers look very similar, but not the same due to the fact that you can't produce a Butter from a direct Platinum breeding. While you can produce Platinums and Lessers and Sibs with Platinums.

Pitoon

Carlos_F Jun 20, 2008 09:26 AM

:: I agree with you but you are combining all mutations that can create a "white snake". ::

I combine them all because they are all related. The Platinum morph is just a small portion of what can result using the related genes in the "White Snake Complex". All the genes I listed earlier exist on the same allele.

:: I was specifically refering to the "Platinum Complex" ::

Again, just focusing on the morphs that make Platinums and platinumesque snakes really limits the scope of what is going on and adds o the confusion.

:: and the powers of using a Sib. Platinum bred to a Platinum and Lesser. Basically the Sib. Platinum at Het Platinums, while the Lesser is a varient of the Platinum. ::

Don't think of the Platinum as the starting point of this project and that everything else derives from it. The Platinum is nothing more than a possible result of a bigger complex. The "main" morphs (starting points) are the ones I mentioned earlier and everything else comes from them. In actuallity the Platinum is a varient of the Lesser morph and not the other way around. The reason that you can only get Platinums when you breed a Lesser (or a morph with the Lesser gene) to a normal offspring from the original Platinum sire is because the Platinum sire is actually a "super" snake in the sense that he has two mutations reacting in the same allele. If you were to look at the chromosome of a Super Pastel it would have 2 doses of the Pastel gene in the same chromosome (P/P) so when it breeds to a normal and that chromosome is split in half and one half is given at random to make a new baby snake (the baby snake gets half it's chromosomes from the father and half from the mother and combines them to make it's own chromosomal map), whichever half is given is going to contain a Pastel gene in it so every baby is atleast going to have one dose of the Pastel gene making every one a Pastel. The Platinum works the same way except that it's chromosome is one part Lesser and one part Mystery Gene (L/M) so when bred to a normal and that chromosome splits it is either going to give the half that has the Lesser gene or the half that has the Mystery gene so every baby is either going to be a Lesser or going to be a Mystery gene but no baby can be a cross of both and no baby can contain neither gene, they are either Lessers or Mysterys. Thats why all the normal offspring from a Platinum breeding contain the Mystery gene and when bred to something that has the Lesser gene the possibility of the (L/M) chromosome comes back into play and you hit on Platinums. If that Mystery gene is bred to something with the Phantom gene you get the (M/P)chromosome which makes Ralph's "Phantom 44's" and that makes them a "super" as well. If you were to breed a Mojave to a Mystery gene the (My/Mo) chromosome would come in to play and you could hit on the "Mojave Daddy". So Platty Sibs are NOT "het Platinums", they are Mystery Gene snakes that can make much than just Platinums depending on what "White Snake Complex" morph you breed it to.

:: Butters and Lessers look very similar, but not the same due to the fact that you can't produce a Butter from a direct Platinum breeding. While you can produce Platinums and Lessers and Sibs with Platinums. ::

You can produce Butters from a direct Platinum breeding, people just happen to call them Lessers.
Why do you think Ralph made a "Butter Daddy" when he bred a "Butter" to one of the normal offspring from an earlier Platinum breeding (AKA a Mystery gene snake)? Because what really happened was that Ralph bred a Lesser to a Mystery and made a Platinum. When the "Butter" was imported there were no "Lessers" to compare them to, there was only the Platinum to compare it to so "Butters" were considered one thing and "Platinums" were conidered another thing. When the Platinum had offspring that didn't quite look like the Platinum those offspring were called "Lesser Platinums" and that is where the confusion happened. Those "Lesser Platinums" were actually "Butters" without the Mystery gene. In reality "Lessers" and "Butters" are the exact same thing just like "Yellow Bellies" and "Goblins".

RandyRemington Jun 20, 2008 09:26 AM

Don't forget latte and there where at least two new ones last year that I haven't heard named. Marshall Van Thorre produced white snakes with I think it was lesser to a new line girl (not 100% sure she couldn't be a distant relative of one of the other lines) and I heard in TSK's Reptile Radio interview that they also proved a new girl with mojave I suppose.

One idea is that RDR's hidden mutation that combines with lesser to make platinum might be another allele of this complex. In that way platinum is very much like say karma, a combo of two different mutations of this same gene. It's just that some of these combos are more white than others and the hidden doesn't appear to have much if any effect by it's self.

So your female may be another mutation of the same gene that combines with mojave to produce a slightly closer to white but not white snake like some other examples from this group – platy, super phantom, or perhaps crystal. Way early to say since we don’t even know if it will stay light out of the egg and past a shed much less if it’s breeding results will support a link to the complex and not just a combo of unrelated morphs like say a pastel mojave.

jpman78 Jun 19, 2008 02:58 PM

You might hit up Bruce Delles of Twin Cities Reptiles (panhead on KS). He produced some "purple hued" mojaves last year that unfortunately colored up to look like normal mojaves after they shed.

Possibly something in the development cycle of mojave's scale color?

That or maybe yours is something really different. In that case congrats!
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John Dague
JD Constriction
www.jdconstriction.com

PeterRuegner Jun 19, 2008 06:09 PM

did you produce any offspring that look like the female?

fgs Jun 19, 2008 06:20 PM

That's a great question.

I have three normals in the clutch and yes it does look like there is at least one that has the same look as the mother. None of the babies were out of their eggs when I left to go to work this morning, but am hoping to see a few crawling around in their shoe box when I get home tonight. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that there will be a little clone of the mother in the bunch.

Brian

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

PeterRuegner Jun 19, 2008 07:01 PM

you said the female resembles a fire type animal. i was wondering has anyone produced a mojave fire combo?

fgs Jun 19, 2008 07:33 PM

Pete:

I have't heard if anyone has produced a fire mojave.

Brian
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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

Tracy Barker Jun 19, 2008 06:58 PM

The Mojave kind of looks axanthic-is it out of the egg yet? Tracy

fgs Jun 19, 2008 07:36 PM

Tracy:

I hope to see it out of it's egg when I get home from work tonight, which will be in about an hour from now.

Brian
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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

bristen Jun 20, 2008 07:41 AM

I'd have to think that somehow this female carries either the "mystery gene" or a variant of it as suggested. It would be very interesting if you could breed a Lesser to this female and see if you have "Platty Daddy" looking snakes hatch from the clutch...

Best of luck, certainly sounds interesting to me!!

Regards,
Bristen.
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___________________________
www.RoyalGemReptiles.com

rwoodyer Jun 20, 2008 11:46 AM

My opinion is your female is a "normal" normal and your hatchlings are "normal" mojaves.

I've had many clutches were some hatchlings have a little more purple hue than others. After about 2 sheds they will look the same as the rest. Here is a pic of a super clutch from 2 years ago where one super was significantly more purple than the other super. 2-3 sheds later, they looked the same.

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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

anthony james mc Jun 21, 2008 04:46 PM

I tend to agree with that , I've hatched het Albinos that you would think they were axanthics they were so silver/grey colored but after a couple sheds they looked like a Het albino should look and at that point they were just a little off but basically brown overall.. If in 2 or 3 sheds they still have a different color then you may have something for sure , till then it's hard to say I think... Anthony McCain..

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