Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here for Dragon Serpents
Click for ZooMed

More communal/social, whatever word you

FR Jun 19, 2008 06:30 PM

Whatever word you like, when the words means the monitors choose and know how to be in a situation that includes others.

To make it a little clearer, a anti-social monitor, seeks out and attacks cagemates, or the different members in a simple cage Avoid eachother. Again, to repell is anti soical, to attract or seek the company of, is to be social.

What appears to happen here is to much rule making, and making the rules extreme without variation. This is why biologists hate ethlogy(behavior). Behavior has many answers to the same test. Or no answers at all. Its not math. Or at least its highly variable, individually prejudiced math. hahahahahahahaha

Then consider, social behaviors can be and are, age related and need related. For instance, monitors are more social or gather in groups during some seasons, fall/winter/spring. And less so during the summer. Or different parts of the colony behave differently, transients(individuals without set homes) are different then residents, which often live in pairs and groups and have very set patterns of movements.

But oh nevermind. it does not matter what you call it, as long as you do call it something.

Today, I want to show monitors kissing. I am not sure its kissing, but it appears all the world like kissing. Two monitors next to eachother, one reaches over and repeatedly touches its nose to the others nose and lips. They do this, then go back to whatever they were doing. We have seen most species do this, again, from the little to the big.

This is not a good pic and a little bit of french kissing. They do tongue the others lips as well. But its the best I could come up with on short notice.

Next is communal nesting. Or pair nesting, or mate guarding. We commonly see all of these. In some cases, several females and a male, will help dig a nesting chamber with the gravid female. Hmmmmmmmm is this concern for another(social)

While we see this all the time, getting pics is hard. But alas, did get pics.






The results of this group nesting was two perfectly good clutches that hatched.

Next is nest guarding, We see this as commonplace. It does vary, Whats noticable is, the time the female is laying eggs, all action in the cage stops or nearly stops. The males, post up high and still in position until the eggs are laid.

Sometimes, they will defend the nest, other times they run, as I get the feeling we humans are too much to handle. They do defend the nest against suitable sized intruders.
Here is a male mertens guarding the nest as the female digs.
[img]

One last event, we have a group of monitors, that are crosses between V.gilleni and V.caudolineatus. There are 6 females in this group and two males. All six were gravid at the same time and are nesting in the same area of a large cage. Hmmmmmmmmm wouldn't/shouldn't they avoid that.

There is much more and all are complicated behaviors. Social, communal, reproductive, whatever you want to call them, they are interesting.

I call them social, because they attract eachother in doing these behaviors.

Lastly I do not want to hear if you disagree or not, a halfwit can disagree, no offense, it takes more to show me something then simply disagree. So stop with the disagreeing and start with the proof that they are not social. Do any of you have highly successful results keeping them apart? any kind of results, even bad ones? something other then, Oh so and so said, or I read. Or on science today a friend of a friend said. Give me something to chew on, pics, results, something solid, not heresay and opinion. Come on with your bad selfs. Put up or shut up. Cheers

Replies (5)

herpsltd Jun 19, 2008 07:43 PM

WELL SAID. By the way Iguanids also have communal nesting sites and all 3 Cuban Crocs used to nest in the SAME nest making it extremely dangerous while collecting eggs fighting off 3 large savage C. rhombifer. Only someone who has had them can realy understand how dangerous they are. They make Croc Monitors seem like pet goldfish....TC

sdslancs Jun 19, 2008 07:46 PM

Here is a male mertens guarding the nest as the female digs. (love that picture by the way)

Typical- the woman does the 'house'work, while the man sits there looking important!

Very interesting stuff and great pictures.
I've noticed others, who say they're not social, posting similar pictures of their own monitors, doing the same things yours are doing (except the kissing-never seen or heard of that before) yet at the same time disagreeing with you. Saying they 'have' to be close, because they can't escape one another, being caged. Surely if that were the case, the stress alone would prevent them from thriving/breeding?

Susan.

FR Jun 19, 2008 11:30 PM

Your right Susan, they often do see the same things and call them something else.

I will mention, we have had individual monitors that were anti social, hahahahahaha, and they have no problem killing other monitors, in an instant. As if they were trained assassins.

Of course, that is extreme. If monitors do not like eachother, they simply avoid eachother and yes, we see that too.

What is odd is, these animals show a set of complex behaviors, from nesting to mating to pairing, to living singly or in groups. Yet, these fine gentil folks, do not want to give them even the smallest degree of social or communal ability.

To me, that tells you about the person and not the animal. Which is sad for the animal.

THere is no doubt, some of these things appear social and some don't, but that is what social is all about. It does not include all, it includes some.

Take people and these forums, these forums are social gathers to a very large extent. Yet, folks are banned or excluded all the time. Hmmmmmmmm

It boils down to this, results, and we gotum and they don't. Which is the reason many social gatherings have problems.

Oh by the way, we have seen many many many more interesting behaviors. If I come across some decent pics, or take some, I will. Cheers

Paradon Jun 23, 2008 09:26 AM

Don't the males fight each other if kept together thus causing stress in the more subordinate ones. I know male lions, typically cousins or brothers, will live together and help each other take over other pride.

FR Jun 23, 2008 12:12 PM

I have many males together and have no problems. Again, with behavior, anything can happen. But I do not dwell on the exception, I go by whats normal. To make it more clear, whats normal here at my house.

Again, I have had males in groups and mixed groups with several males. Common sense again applies, if you have a troublesome individual, replace him with a non troublesome individual.

What bothers me, oh not again, is, I show pics of all manner of groups, doing all manner of nice things, and all people can talk about is something that did not happen. Odd and interesting for someone evolved in behavior. Cheers

Site Tools