Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi. I have had my snake for about 6 years now. She was about 16" when I got her and is right at 4' now. In the last few weeks, I have noticed some strange behavior that is starting to concern me.

It has been a couple months since she has eaten (2 mice - not a lot for her) and has refused several meals since then. A few weeks ago, I noticed that she seemed to be sleeping with her mouth open. She did this for a few days. If I would distract her, she would close her mouth, but a few minutes later it would be open again. I looked for a wound or some swelling in her mouth but I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary (as though I know what an ordinary snake's mouth looks like!).

Anyway, for the last few days she has CONSTANTLY been moving around her tank looking for a way out. I don't think I have ever seen her active for this long before. Yesterday on two occasions I heard her fart. Her tank is right by my desk and I spend pretty much all my not-work and not-sleep time at my computer. I turned around to look (always a startling sound!) and since she hasn't eaten for a couple months I didn't think she would be crapping. All that came out was a white foam. Today she did the same thing.

This combination of strange behaviors has me a bit concerned. Are these common symptoms for something I need to treat? Any advice?

jorj
my website

Yes, You should be concerned!, the not eating for a couple months, gaping mouth, and so-called "fart", which might have actually been a loud "sneeze" type sound that snakes are prone to doing when they have an upper respiratory infection, all sound typical of this.

Put the snake's head to your ear in a VERY quiet environment, and listen carefully for a "clicking", or popping type noise. Also bubbles are sometimes visible coming from the nostrils, and/or mouth when this has become very advanced.

I strongly suspect this to be the case, and I would suggest that you get the snake to a qualified reptile vet ASAP!

In the meantime, Up the temp in it's enclosure to 83-86 degrees with an ACCURATE thermometer down on the substrate where the snake "actually" is,.....do NOT guess at the temps, as this can become life-threatening if it gets too warm. This will help it's own metabolism quicken, and allow it's natural immune system to start working against the infection until you get the snake to the vet. This is nothing to take lightly, as this can soon lead to the snake's death if not taken care of, and SOON!

The vet needs to administer some antibiotics to the snake in this case if it is indeed what I strongly suspect it is. As I mentioned, if left untreated, it will surely kill the snake.

good luck with the snake, and if it making those noises I mentioned, please go straight to a decent reptile vet.

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

It was not a sneeze. She did take a dump - it was just a bunch of foam with very little substance. This morning she is sitting still with her mouth open again - something I haven't seen for a week or two. As for temp, I have actually had her heat lamp off for the last few days and the ambient temp in this room is 74-76 degrees.

Does it have any mid body swelling?
-----
I decided my old sig was too big.

No, it does not. I did take her to a vet due to possible RI. More details posted below,

jorj

Like I suggested before, the snake needs veterinary care!....prolonging the visit will NOT make the problem disappear. Enough time has been wasted already with this now since it hasn't eaten in a couple of months as mentioned.

You still haven't said if it was making any noises that resemble "clicking" sounds when it's head is put to your ear?

Regardless of ANYTHING else though,....the GAPING MOUTH is NOT a good sign, and is DEFINITELY a bad sign it has a respiratory infection. Another possibility with the gaping mouth, is "mouth-rot"(infectious stomatitis) that is yet ANOTHER thing that will prevent the snake from eating, and will eventually lead to the snake's death if not addressed quickly.

So you see,.....my POINT is, the snake needs medical attention, and it really needed it a good while back,......but now it needs veterinary help more than EVER!,....as in NOW!

Temps of 74 to 76 degrees aren't helping matters AT ALL either,...as I suggested 83-86 in my other post.

To sum this all up,......please stop wasting the snake's precious time on the forums, ans hoping the problem disappears, because it won't,....it will ONLY become worse, and lead to the snake's demize. It needs a vet,....ASAP!

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thank you for the reply. Let me give a little backstory to show you where I am coming from.

I have had this snake 6 1/2 years. The last few years I fed it f/t rats that were on the upper side of what it could swallow. I discovered that after a feeding, any food offered a month or two later was ignored. It generally ate every 2 to 3 months. So going two months and not eating alone didn't alarm me too much. The fact that the last feeding was just two mice did alarm me a little, as the rats she used to consume were much larger.

A week or two ago when I noticed her gaping, I got a flashlight and looked in her mouth because I have read about mouthrot. I didn't see anything that appeared infected, so I didn't think too much of it. Soon, she stopped gaping.

This week she has almost constantly been on the go, looking for a way out of the tank. Multiple days on the move is unusual for her. When she ignored the 4 f/t mice I offered, I got a little more concerned. When she crapped nothing but bubbles, a little clear, and a little white/green two times in one evening (remember - hasn't eaten for a couple months), I became more alarmed.

Reading your suggestion of RI made me check for a few other symptoms. I have never seen slime by her nostrils or been aware of any difficulty breathing. I held her for a bit today and listened carefully to her head. I think I did hear a pop. It might have been something else, but the refusing food the gaping the phantom craps always moving your response made me look for a vet.

The vet right down the street from me referred me to one that specializes in exotics. I called and we arranged for me to drop her off immediately. They will call later this afternoon/evening to let me know what they find and I will pick her up tomorrow.

Annika is currently at that vet and tonight/tomorrow I will find out what they think.

Thanks again.

jorj

>>Thank you for the reply. Let me give a little backstory to show you where I am coming from.
>>
>>I have had this snake 6 1/2 years. The last few years I fed it f/t rats that were on the upper side of what it could swallow. I discovered that after a feeding, any food offered a month or two later was ignored. It generally ate every 2 to 3 months. So going two months and not eating alone didn't alarm me too much. The fact that the last feeding was just two mice did alarm me a little, as the rats she used to consume were much larger.
>>
>>A week or two ago when I noticed her gaping, I got a flashlight and looked in her mouth because I have read about mouthrot. I didn't see anything that appeared infected, so I didn't think too much of it. Soon, she stopped gaping.
>>
>>This week she has almost constantly been on the go, looking for a way out of the tank. Multiple days on the move is unusual for her. When she ignored the 4 f/t mice I offered, I got a little more concerned. When she crapped nothing but bubbles, a little clear, and a little white/green two times in one evening (remember - hasn't eaten for a couple months), I became more alarmed.
>>
>>Reading your suggestion of RI made me check for a few other symptoms. I have never seen slime by her nostrils or been aware of any difficulty breathing. I held her for a bit today and listened carefully to her head. I think I did hear a pop. It might have been something else, but the refusing food the gaping the phantom craps always moving your response made me look for a vet.
>>
>>The vet right down the street from me referred me to one that specializes in exotics. I called and we arranged for me to drop her off immediately. They will call later this afternoon/evening to let me know what they find and I will pick her up tomorrow.
>>
>>Annika is currently at that vet and tonight/tomorrow I will find out what they think.
>>
>>Thanks again.
>>
>>jorj

It also sounds like an RI to me but diagnosis via the internet is obviously impossible.
I'm glad you took it to the vet.
Let us know what you find out.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I just got a call back. I was told that it is bad RI. She also said that all the moving around was to stretch her body to help her breathe. Tomorrow I will pick her up and get an antibiotic kit. I guess I will learn how to give a snake a shot!

Thanks for the feedback! You very possibly saved a snake's life!

jorj
Pictures and Videos of Annika

You are very welcome, and I'm so glad to hear you did the right thing!,....all of us here are always happy to help someone out that will listen to experienced advice.

I really hope the snake does well after some raised temps and a good regimen of herp friendly antibiotics.

best of luck,....and please stay in touch and let us know how it does.

BTW,....I apologize if my earlier posts came across as a little harsh,..but I really needed to stress how serious this thing was in hopes of you getting it to a vet for treatment....FAST!,......again, congratulations for making a fast decision......as you mentioned,..this hopefully will save the snake's life.

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

This morning I went to pick up Annika and stopped at a pet store for a few supplies along the way. They had extra heat on her all night and apparently she was feeling a lot better. When they brought her to me, she was in the classic rat snake defense posture and striking at anything that got near her enclosure. I have never seen this behavior from her before. The only time she has bitten me was once I was dangling a f/t rat by its tail in front of her and she shot high and a tooth caught my thumb (my own stupid fault) and the only other time she has struck at me was once i distracted her when she was starting to swallow a rat - she just thumped the inside of her tank. I did notice a large amount of saliva in her mouth at the time, so I wonder of the scent of mammal in the air didn't trigger a feeding response.

The vet there said she has a respiratory infection - not too bad one one, but a nasty one none the less. He also showed me how to carefully pick her up using a towel to avoid the pointy end and how to give her a shot. I was very impressed with how he handled her. I am to give her a shot every day for 14 days.

She seems to be happier now that she's back in her home, though there are some differences. The normal heat lamp is now on the cool side of the tank and a warmer one is on the warm side. I have a thermometer in there so I can keep an eye on the temp of the warm side. The bottom of the tank is covered with newspapers instead of the normal aspen to reduce the chance of an infection from the shots. There are a couple mice in there for her (f/t) but thus far, they have gone ignored - she is just happy to be in a hide box again. The warm side is currently at 84F.

I guess things are looking pretty good right now. My question is what causes RI? Was it something I could have prevented or is it just something that happens and needs to be dealt with?

Thank you all so much for your input.

jorj

RI's are usually caused from temps being too low, this is what I suspect happened in your case, although they can also get sick from it transferring from other sick snakes in the vacinity as well, etc...

I really prefer to keep colubrids heated from underneath, as opposed to from above with a bulb, as this can often dry the air in the enclosure which also tends to dry the snake's skin too,...many times leading to shedding problems. But if you make sure the humidity is maintained in the enclosure, it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Please keep in mind,....don't let the temps get too hot, as this can also be VERY dangerous(lethal). I would "force" the snake to be isolated to temps of 83-86 during this period of medication,....and then after a few weeks when the snake is better, arrange things back to a temp gradient of 75-78 on cool side, and 83-85 on the warm side so it can go back to normal thermoregulation.

A STRONG word of caution though,....when keeping the snake in small confined quarters with the higher temps I mentioned, make sure you give the setup a "dry-run" and monitor it closely without the snake in it, so you KNOW the temps are right first!, otherwise, it could kill the snake.......it's really just basic common sense here.

Good luck!, and keep us posted on it's progress.

~Doug

-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I have been checking on the temp pretty regularly at this point. It seems pretty stable at 84-85 degrees. She is very active right now but not aggressive anymore. I guess she was just homesick! She's back to looking high and low for escape points and still hasn't eaten the two mice in there. Is there any chance a rat would make any difference? I always figures a rodent was a rodent. Besides, the last meal she had was two mice. Maybe a few days of the antibiotics will get her appetite back.

jorj

Sounds good so far,...Oh!,...I forgot to mention this in my previous post,....FORGET about offering the snake any food until this thing is cleared up,....at the very LEAST, another week or so,..maybe longer. After the RI has subsided, it's appetite will return back to normal.

take care!, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Ok. I figured she would be hungry by now and it would give her some energy to help fight the infection. I will wait until she gets a bit better.

jorj

Is it just me or does this snake look more like a grey rat then an anery corn?
Doug, what do you think?
Here is a picture of the snake

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I honestly don't know exactly what she is. The pet store just had her labeled 'Rat Snake'. I have posted pics here before and gotten responses of anything from corn/rat cross to even part fox snake. The normal arrow on her head is only partially there - its 2 triangles and a heart.

jorj

That is certainly not an anery cornsnake!,....it might have a a certain amount of anery corn in it's lineage, but it's DEFINITELY not a cornsnake. The head pattern AND shape are all wrong.

Yes, it does look to have a very large amount of Gray Ratsnake influence, but that short head, and ultra thick neck has me scratching my head as to it being a pure Gray Rat either.

It really seems to be a cross of maybe BOTH!, and even something else in there,...like maybe even Pine Snake?,....I know that seems funny, but that could help explain the stocky neck, and the shorter head. Also, some Pines have the post-ocular stripe behind the eye along the jaw-line, as well as the cross-bar connecting across the head connecting the eyes as Gray Rats do....hmmmm,....even the dorsal blotching looks a bit odd in some of the photos. I just can't quite put my finger on it,.....but ONE things for sure,...it ain't an anery corn, that for sure!

later!, Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>That is certainly not an anery cornsnake!,....it might have a a certain amount of anery corn in it's lineage, but it's DEFINITELY not a cornsnake. The head pattern AND shape are all wrong.
>>
>> Yes, it does look to have a very large amount of Gray Ratsnake influence, but that short head, and ultra thick neck has me scratching my head as to it being a pure Gray Rat either.
>>
>> It really seems to be a cross of maybe BOTH!, and even something else in there,...like maybe even Pine Snake?,....I know that seems funny, but that could help explain the stocky neck, and the shorter head. Also, some Pines have the post-ocular stripe behind the eye along the jaw-line, as well as the cross-bar connecting across the head connecting the eyes as Gray Rats do....hmmmm,....even the dorsal blotching looks a bit odd in some of the photos. I just can't quite put my finger on it,.....but ONE things for sure,...it ain't an anery corn, that for sure!
>>
>>
>> later!, Doug
>>-----

for a snake that doesn't seem to eat very often it sure does look healthy in those photos.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Here is a time lapse video I made of her eating a rat. A meal like this lasted 8-12 weeks.
Time lapse video

>>Here is a time lapse video I made of her eating a rat. A meal like this lasted 8-12 weeks.
>>Time lapse video

Man, that meal is way too large. I'm surprised he digested it before it started to rot in his stomach.
Whenever you get him back in good health maybe you might want to drop down to a smaller rat or large mouse.
And that thing definitely has grey rat. Actually it is either grey rat or possibly grey/black cross.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

It's funny..LOL!,...That was my exact first thought as well...that big of a meal is just asking for trouble in the regurge department!,....it must certainly be kept at some really warm temps to eat meals that large on a steady basis!..LOL!

What's weird is, the head looks much more proportionate to the snake, than it looked in the other pics,....maybe the snake was forcing it's head down, and it just "looked" wider..LOL!

In any case though,...I agree 100%,....there's definitely a bunch of at least Gray Rat in "them thar" genes!..

BTW,...as you mentioned, when it gets well, I would also feed it smaller meals half that size once a week or so. Those gargantuan meals are very taxing on his health!...wow!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

My last frozen rodent order was for 50 mice. I am planning on feeding smaller meals more frequently. As long as I've had her, I have noticed that her head tends to change shape. Sometimes her lower jaw looks like it's either swollen or she's puffing up for a defense posture. Once she starts moving around, it goes back to normal. She isn't at all aggressive while doing this either. I fist noticed this about 6 years ago, so by now I'm convinced it's nothing serious.

jorj

I'm glad to hear that you'll start feeding it smaller meals, and the snake will really be much better off that way.

The neck inflating thing you were talking about tends to explain what I was seeing regarding it's head seeming very wide in comparison to it's length.....mystery solved!..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Yes, you should be very concerned. Make an appointment with a vet, something is not right.

I'm not familiar with enough corn ailments to make a proper guess, but mouth open is often related to an upper respiratory infection. I have no clue about the farting though.
-----
I decided my old sig was too big.