Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello group, I was just curious, and whenever that happens this is the place with answers for me! You guys rule! My albino baby girl burmese python Belladonna has been mite free (knock on wood) since I received help from this exact forum. Thank you all, I truly appreciate your guys' input!

New Subject: Cages. Everyone uses they're own ideas and i'm no different. I prefer cheap when they are young, because they are going to outgrow it double quick so there is no reason to set up a nice fancy shmancy cage that it's just going to occupy a short while. However, I'm coming to a time where my largest Burm, a Boy named Caber is getting ready for what I coin his "permanent home" and i'm not quite sure what that is yet. I know he is only 9 foot long, so he has a few feet left to grow theoretically, meaning my thought processes are leading me to believe a 4 foot by 8 foot by 3 and a half foot tall "home" will do nicely. I am a woodworker, and have been for many years, and am thinking I am going to build this monstrosity out of wood, and line the interior with plexiglass or a spray that acts as plastic once dried (and providing its non toxic to my pride and joy).

I've had an idea to make two "trays" for the home. One tray will allow for an impressive reservoir that is filtered, circulated, and oxygenated, with pH adjusted water, becauase that is what I drink and know of the benefits of such a brew. I also know that my Boy is obsessed with the water and stays in it for great lengths occasionally. I am going to accomplish that by having a valve drain on the front side of the home so that I can just empty it into a 5 gallon bucket a couple of times and then scrub it down and refill it. The other "tray" I want to have two or three hide boxes that I can access by a panel that can be removed from the side closest the wall once I roll the tray out (since it will be on caster that are concealed within the tray's frame). the center of the tank is going to have grass, because I love plants and have had gardens all my life, and my snakes seem to love the grass, and it is very easy to maintain, and can withstand a lot of abuse. this will be in a large flat tupperware you can get anywhere, with the same drain on it for when I soak the grass and prepare it for organic fertilizers once a year.

I am going to be setting up a misting system, because it'll help keep the humidity up for the snake and the grass, and I rely on ceramic heat emitters for a constant temperature, and that makes sure to eliminate a lot of humidity. I'll be using three certain flourescent lights for the grass, and as a by product the snake will get some extra d3 and full spectrum lighting, but it wasn't put there for him!

I also am setting up a ventilation system that will allow a gentle breeze through the cage when he decides to make his mess for me, because we all know what a great smell that is!

Here are my problems!
When I build this monster, I am going to have to do it in panels, theoretically, so that when I move I can take it down easier instead of having to remove windows to get the thing through the window frame! Does anyone have suggestions on a spray plastic film that I can use to coat the raw wood with so that it is waterproof?

What should I use for a climbing branch? I want a fairly nice looking home for the snake because I love him and want him very well cared for, and though they dont climb often, my snake does tend to take to the trees when I take him on walks in the forest with me. Branches are bug filled dirty things though, and I have no idea how to sterilize a log. I want whatever it is to look fairly natural, or at least aesthetically appealing.

And finally, what would be a good front for this cage? I was thinking sliding windows would be nice, but they dont allow central cage access very well, and that is where the grass will be, so I need to be able to get in there to cut it weekly.

I know it's a lot of work, but I want to keep and breed these magnificent animals, and the caging has to be done right as well as many other things. I'll be getting a house with property in March, wic is necessary for me to breed quail, rabbits, chickens, and pygmy goats as well as regular goats. I've farmed many animals before, but nothing is more entertaining than snakes to me, so raising all this other cattle so they have a healthy, organically raised food selection is important to me. I just get confused by some of the simple things, and would like others advice before I continue with what I got.

Thanks to all who read, and thanks to all who reply and thanks to all who've helped before!

You all rule, and someday, I will have my 8 favorite burmese pythons!

Sounds like a lot of work to build and upkeep. I'm not going to be much help as I have alot of snakes and other animals chores that I can't even begin to think of a fance set up like that. I love working with my hands also when it comes to building cages etc so I know it would be fun doing this project. One thing I'm not sure of though, the cage size is well big enough for your snake but for all that you are wanting to put in the cage is this cage going to be big enough ? I would love to see your finished project. Please post picks once you have finished it.
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Education is Everything.......

I would rethink the dimensions. While 8ft is a good length, you can shorten the height to 18in. Big burms really don't need the height. You can also heat it, and keep the humidity levels more easily..
And the depth of 4 ft... I do like the idea of floor space for big burms,but 4ft deep is difficult to clean, and can be somewhat dangerous if you have to sort of "get yourself inside" to reach the back. That's assuming you can reach the back.
The dimensions I use are 8ftL x 18inH x 30inD.
My burms use every inch of space.
I heat these with 2-135 watt radiant heat panels each, and mist daily.

Sounds awsome!
The cages we use are 7long, 4 wide, and 4 tall-- and they are a "get in the cage" deal-- it is impossible to reach the back without getting IN the cage-- snake comes out first.

Mine are 4 ft tall, and have a large shelf in the back corner-- I designed my cages to be comfortable for several species-- the retics LOVE the shelf, and I occasionally see the burms on the shelf as well.

I think the grass would be hard to maintain- but by all means- you have the passion, and if you have the time- dive in!

As for something to seal the wood--- I have used marine grade fiberglass- it was suggested to me here-- it is what you use to repair boats-- for one cage, it was pricy- about 250-300$ . I then tested a material called "Drylock" -- its available at lowes/home depot, over in the paint section-- its used for sealing basements- cement. I used about 8 coats on plywood, and then topped that with a coat of polyurethane. took about 6 weeks to get all the coats on and dry, and another 1-2 weeks to 'air out' -- Takes A LOT of work but it is waterproof-- fluids just sit on the surface, and are absorbed by bedding.

I'd love to see pics!!

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

I appreciate everyones assistance and input on this, diversity of knowledge is the spice of custome keeping, and that's where I wish to be! It might be the end of the year before the first cage is built, and then all next year I will be building 7 more for the final collection.

It is going to be a lot of work, but it's the kind of work I live for! Woodworking, leatherworking, snake keeping, gardening, indoor gardening, and custom caging are all very keen subjects to me, and with my 5 years of shop including the advanced cabinetry classes I took in high school where we were actually assigned to companies to install large scale projects, I feel I have a good bead on this creation.

I like the methods recommended for water sealing, but again, I'm probably ust going to have to build it in panels for ease of transport. That means, penny for penny, it'd be quicker and easily maintained if I just put thin sheets of acrylic layered over the wood, and glued & screwed to it. A bit pricy sure, but all of the methods I'm looking at now are pricy in some way, labor wise or materials.

Floor space wont be a problem because the vastness of it will be a large grassy patch, with exotic easy to keep grasses to contrast the snakes natural colors, real light, kentucky bluegrass for the dark phase snakes, and real dark, foresty green carpets of grass for the albinos. Probably 5 feet by 4 feet of just flat open space with grass in the center of the cage. Then a shallow (10 inch deep) reservoir with casters. All the mechanics for the water basin will be sectioned off into a compartment that eats up about 10% of the reservoir, but burms just cannot leave well enough alone, and that 10% saves the risk of all manners of headaches from arising! It will be oxygenated via micro-diffusion air stones, because tinier bubbles are more readily absorbed by the water, and when more air is in the water bodies can use it more efficiently. The pH thing was recommended to me for me by an apothecary hippie I met in Idaho who has her own organic herbal shop. She knew her hippie stuff and dazzled me with information I'll not be able to recall, but she got her point across!

As for the other end of the cage where the hidey holes live, I like to stack hidey hole on one another because to a snake, it makes a world of difference somehow. My burm has a blanket in his tank because everytime I hang out with him, and he wanders around my freshly cleaned room, he always winds up on my bed burrowin around the blankets like its his. He will spend hours going from one layer of blanket to the next like it was unexplored territory. Very amusing, great excersize for the snake too. I really liked that shelf idea, and since I dont mind the crawl in and maintain kind of cage, I think it would maximize floor space adding that much more for the snake to fool around with, and my burms are nothing if they arent curious 24/7!

I will happily post some pics once I have a few worth posting, but I just moved up here to washington, and gotta get the grind of a new state set in before I take on my hobbies again. Got me a dragon (chinese zodiac for my girlfriend) who's expecting college next fall, so I figured we'll buy her a year of tuition, then my snakes n tools n motorcycle (which are all still cheaper that one year of her tuition! lol @ college kids) and then her another year of school, then my next big present package! Maybe i'll get crazy and get me that tarantula collection I've been wanting for years!

Thanks for the input guys! I love having a forum full of snake nerds to talk too about these thoughts in my head. No one understands me, I have no reptile friends, and when I tell people I know I keep pythons they recoil in fear like I told them I was infected with ebola, and hiss the age old question "are they poisonous!?" at me. I was walking around Boise with my standard phase male on my shoulders, going to my work to pick up my paycheck, and a lady parked next to me, was on her cell phone, and when she turned off her jeep and got out and saw my 8 foot python chillin on my shoulders like it was no big deal, she shrieked, said "I f****** hate snakes!" jumped in her jeep and literally sped away as though my ferocious killer that was just seething with evil on my shoulders was going to chase her in her jeep! I'm tellin' ya, Salt Lake City, Boise, and Olympia are NOT the most snake friendly capitals in the world!

Blessed Be

Sounds to me you have it all figured out. Very good. Just a thought to throw at you. A few years ago a man had a burm and had a heat blanket in her cage for heat. Well he left the blanket in the cage when he fed her and one time she actually coiled the rabbit in the blanket and ate the blanket as well. If I rememeber correctly they had to do surgery on the snake to remove the blanket. I'd hate to see or hear of a snake having to go threw something like that again. Just wanted to pass that on. And the other people and snake thing well that will allways be. We all have to deal with that stuff time and time again.
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Education is Everything.......

Yeah I actually saw an article on that, wasn't it in a REPTILES mag? Ever since then I've been paranoid too, so I dont feed them with the blanket in the tank, just not willing to chance the cotton surgery... bad juju. I hope that snake is okay!

I actually stopped using "in-tank" heating 2 years ago when my little albino standard phase female burrowed down to an undertank heater I had set up for her, and then added like 3 inches of substrate. She burrowed right to the glass and stayed there for like 3 days. Toasted her tail end, lost about a quarter of an inch off the tip of her tail, and lots of sheds later her scars remain. I read somewhere that scarring was the norm, rather than the exception. Unfortunate for all.

Thanks for the heads up though, it's nice to have people support me and my ideas rather than quote a time they "got" to shoot a snake or some such nonsense.

Hi!
I can understand & relate to your wanting to build such a sophisticated enclosure. I don't want to discourage you from attempting it but I do wnat to encourage you to really think everything all the way through.

You're gonna run into one alteration after another in the planning stage. Everything within a cage needs to work together, in unison, for the benefit of the captive. Most of the time personal desires will take lead over the captive's needs.

The mental aspect of the planning stage, alone, if done right, will most likely overwhelm just about anyone, no matter how strong the passion. That's quite a complex system you're considering. Very few make it past the planning stage of such complex systems.

If you were to survive the planning stage and then the building stage I'm confident that cage maintenance will practically kill you and won't last long. Even the simplest "display" setups are a booger to maintain and don't last long at all before the keeper goes back to plain ol' newspaper substrate, water bowl & heat source, period. Been there, done that. (But thankfully, you're not me & I'm not you. Ha! I realize that.)

Part of the problem with display setups not lasting comes down to most of us not having enough onlookers to boost our morale, pride, enough to keep pressin' on. In an office or store front the motivation is usually there, but the task is still daunting.

I don't mean to sound so negative but I don't want to see you or anyone else get too overwhelmed without having at least considered everything.

Whatever you do, try to keep the captive's needs as the main goal and work personal desires around them. It can be done, but not without a heavy price.

Best wishes to you! If/when you come down to needing input on specific things don't hesitate to start a thread here, and/or in the Cage & Habitat Forum. There are some really good people with lots of material & application knowledge over there.

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Thank you for the cautionary advice Sir Happy Hillbilly. I have been on this post for a while under two or three names, and have read your posts for that entire time. Your words are accurate, tried, and true, and I appreciate you trying to give me a perspective other than what everyone else says.
I have been considering this massive cage for a while, I won't lie. I've been interested in reptiles for my whole life, and always wanted or had them. I started simply, with the garters, ribbons, gophers, pines and bulls (all the pituophis), and even had a few lizards and amphibians, but no pet has even compared to the passion I feel for snakes.
I've had dogs, scorpions, tarnatulas, insects of all kinds, arachnids most people have never heard of (i.e. windscorpions and vinegaroons), cats, been around horses a lot, donkeys, goats, chickens, rabbits, hogs, buffalo, llamas, ostrichi (an inside joke), and much more than people would have been able to do just a few hundred years ago, but is all too common and simple these days. But once again, an all-consuming passion for the serpents is what drives me. Maybe it's because when I was a kid I loved dinosaurs, and they were like dragons to me, because of their size more so than their scales. Giant snakes are the last of the dragons in my opinion.
Since I have been woodworking for a while, and keeping snakes for a while, I have been testing theories out for a while as well. I've tried keeping water setups of smalle nature in the tanks of other snakes, and my burmese pythons to see what they would do to it. Predictably, the defecate/urinate, and smash by sheer gravity alone anything that is not built to support. I played legoes, I know how to build things for support! lol! after about five models, I think I got the basin down! I've gone through at least 200 dollars in filters/pumps/tupperware/air tubing/air stones/silicone/etc.. in creating this final culmination I have. It's nothing fancy, or pretty for that matter, but I have discovered flat pond rocks, the kind used for making those scenic cascading waterfall trickling streams things, in smaller more burm cage sized mangeable sizes, make for an excellent cover and weight. I use portland cement to form fit everything, and have been using and acrylic binary compound "foodsafe" film to cover the cement with, for ease of cleaning since the stones take up 99% of the surface area, I didn't want to scrub the cracks with a toothbrush. I leave the rocks bare for shedding, and scratching, and gripping and the likes. Plus, concrete is so much more porous than stone.

All that it is a tupperware a pump an air pump, and an air stone, are simple little things that are chambered off to one extremity of the basin. there is a plastic wall aquarium siliconed into place, with supports on the mechanics side, as opposed to the basin side, where the snakes find great joy in wedging them free. This basin has a large drain valve on it, for most fecal matter to be able to pass through, and thus make it easy on me to clean. The basin lasts for anywhere from 5 days to about a week and a half. I monitor the water daily though, just because i'm like that, and even though it's filtered and oxygenated and pH adjusted does not make it sanitary to sit in the same water for long. I clean everything on the weekends, it's just part of my routine, unless a mess is made, I clean on the spot most, but regular maintenance on weekends.

The grass test was the easiest, a big tupperware with organic everything. First layer coars rocks for drainage/ventilation, then in the corners of the box PVC tubes with screen caps on the tops, these are for drainage, and the screen is necessary not only for the snakes snouts, but the bugs that will settle there and cause infestions of gnats or whatnot (that experiment sucked). Then organic soil w/perlite, then organic soil, then a very light layer of sand just to keep everything matted down while the grass seed takes. Then the roots fill the box, and you spirnkly organic soil on it every six months, water it into the grass over the course of a couple of sunny days, and voila, a grass box. Theres not a lot of other plants that'll survive a burm, so until I figure out large scale bonsai done quickly (thats gotta be a myth) i'll stick to replaceable, cheap, abuseable, and colorful grass. And all plants make some fresh oxygen, that's got to be appreciate by a beast whos head always seems to be resting on the ground!

Finally the last third of the tank is just a hide box jungle, no weird shenanigans here, just disguised tupperwares and a few large black PVC 10" tubing. Gives them a maze to call home and somethings to keep them moving about their cage, excersize is important for all living things, even plants have to strengthen against the force of the wind. And multiple snakes are exponentially more and more difficult to get excersized manually! I will someday have an outdoor enclosure on warm summer months for further excersize and something new for my friends (the snakes, not the humans). Top it all off with a simple to adjust misting system on another auto-timer.

All in all the cage's simplicity of operation is what makes it most attractive to me. There are three roller platforms (due to the casters) that can be maintained individually, one at a time, or all at once, or as one section needs it. I've been keeping a journal on snakes since the purchase of my first burm, and have been writing out ideas and plans and drawing out schematics and theories now for almost a decade. I'm finally at a place in my life where I will be able to put my final results into action. Should they work, I will have accomplished a goal I have set for myself long ago. Which brings me to the final thing you mentioned I wish to address.

I know there are cool people on this forum, including you! You yourself have helped me with mite problems i've had in the past, and your methods work. That's why i've been posting lately. I'm trying to turn over a new leaf, now that i'm finally home, where I consider home, I'm going to make things happen for me. And I want to be able to tell people who will appreciate the efforts and thoughts that I have put into all this whimsy. People always say follow your dreams, and then they themselves dont. I'm following my dreams, no matter how much resistance I encounter, and you guys all understand that, because every snake owner is scrutinized in some way by some crowds, and we all have to deal with the occasional nay-sayers to our hobby. All I want is to breed exceptional animals, and sell them at exceptional prices, and to do that you need exceptional animals. I'm not going to be paying for that unless I am going to be taking care of them the way I think is necessary. I'll admit, i'm going to lengths that are not necessary or necessarily the best, but I feel the things I am giving them are vital to their longevity. I want them to live a good long healthy happy stress free as possible life, and I hope that is what I accomplish.

Again, thank you HH for your words of wisdom and support, as well as information, and insights as to what may come to pass. I appreciate you guys a lot, and will be keeping you all appraised of my situation as it progresses. I'm not the fastest or highest funded fellow, so dont expect pictures of anything too soon, but things will be underway here shortly, and I am so excited about it all I lose sleep thinking about it!

Bleesed Be everyone, thanks for reading!

I was walking around Boise with my standard phase male on my shoulders, going to my work to pick up my paycheck, and a lady parked next to me, was on her cell phone, and when she turned off her jeep and got out and saw my 8 foot python chillin on my shoulders like it was no big deal, she shrieked, said "I f****** hate snakes!" jumped in her jeep and literally sped away as though my ferocious killer that was just seething with evil on my shoulders was going to chase her in her jeep!

Please consider other people's rights and fears. Snakes are the most commonly feared creature on earth. Spiders are probably second.

Yes, most people's fears stem from ignorance. Not stupidity, but ignorance. This fear is usually heavily rooted within generation after generation of said people. A lot of people are deathly afraid of snakes.

I can remember when I was a child (maybe 9 or 10yrs old) seeing one of my uncles seriously threaten to beat his 18yr old son to death with a hammer "if you take one more step towards me with that snake". I'm here to tell you that he would've done it, too. He was that scared of snakes. The snake was a 2 1/2ft red rat snake in central FL.

We aren't going to win over the general public by needless, unwanted, public displays of them. These aren't socially-accepted puppies or kittens. It's no different than non-smokers not wanting to smell the smoke of cigarettes or cigars while dining. They have that right. One person's rights ends where another person's rights begin.

Please, if you want to show off your snakes arrange to do educational shows somewhere, somewhere where everyone knows what they're about to encounter. If personally needed, at least go to an unpopulated area where nobody else is nearby and sit with your snake. Even though I'm not real fond of this technique it allows those that are curious to come to you and the "fraidy cats" (just teasing) can stay as far away as they like.

You're already aware of the stigma we reptile keepers face. Even the best of friends will sometimes think we're flat out loony just because of our choice of captives.

Please, respect other people's fears & rights and leave your snakes at home or take them to special "repitle" functions, only.

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

This is true, and I'm not here to ride you or put you down, etc. Just adding an opinion worth about two cents.

Daytona, Fl has a city ordinance prohibiting public display of reptiles (and certain other animals, I'm sure). Of course, Daytona is an interesting place and between Bike Week x 2, Speed Week, Spring Break, BCC, and the big herp show, I'm sure they had a lot of crazy stuff going on! But the bottom line is that a lot of people have an irrational fear of snakes and when they perceive that snakes are going to out and about, ordinances get passed in certain places. When I was hired to do a reptile show in Daytona for a Halloween event, I had to present to the city council all of the precautions, staffing, animal inventory, and exactly how the animals would be presented in public in order to secure the job.

The herp industry is going through a time when image is everything. It's unfortunate and we can pretend that it doesn't matter. Heck, we can even try to buck the system and rebel, but it will only bite us all in the rear in the long run.

I did a summer camp presentation yesterday for two classes, grades K-2 and 3-5. My Burm is in shed and couldn't go, but I did bring a couple of corn snakes and my 7ft boa for the snake component. It was a great time of education and for half of the younger kids, it was the first time they ever touched a snake. I love to get in there early and show the kids the friendly side of herps and teach the role they play in the environment.

By the way, I read your description of the enclosure that you plan to build. Very impressive! I'm not mechanically inclined in any way, so it was certainly beyond my means! I'm more of the newspaper and box kind of Burm keeper. I can make a more natural display for my corns and small lizards, and it is fun. Good luck with your project (and dream). If it's something you have a knack for, then I'm sure you can swing it.