Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Maybe I am too used to tropical fish, but it seems that almost all bearded dragon breeders lack any direction when it comes to developing strains. I have looked at site after site and it is always the same... sandfirexcitrus or redxgold or blah x duh ect. Why is it not red x red for generations or yellow by yellow ect. It seems everyone is trying to produce that one ooutstanding baby from the magical cross, why not spend 10 or 20 years developing one color or strain only? I see very little of this in the beardeds, is it that none of these traits are passed on at all making every breeding a genetic crapshoot?
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There are line bred dragons around you just have to know where to look. Kevin at Dragons Den has solid yellow dragons called "Sunbursts" from line breeding. He also has solid red dragons called "Bloods". Chris Allen has a Red X Red cross as well. There are many private breeders around that have pure red and pure yellow crosses. I bought one of my females from a private breeder who has a red cross.

Robert
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Email Me

My red x red cross was not from me line breeding my dragons. I would not agree with doing so........it was just a label of a red cross crossed with another red cross. Chris

What is it that keeps breeders from breeding for the same color for generations? I am not talking about inbreeding, just a consistant crossing toward a specific color. Why bother crossing a yellow with a red when neither has been perfected? I do not see much about the german breeders but I would suspect that they would be more prone to keeping a set goal in their breeding efforts. (they seem to in other captive animals)
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In dragons there have been an abundance of dragons with many different problems such as smaller size, crooked spines, deformed elbows and joints just to name a few. These are all thought to be possible side effects of the limited gene pool we have here in the U.S. to work with.......from what I have read and been told.. Maybe some being bred that are related purely on accident, maybe some on purpose. Maybe CheriS can provide you with some more data as to the direct effects of the current breedings here as I know she has some great info and is probably the single most person that I know of that actually has set out to "do good" for bearded dragons.. I think it all comes down to poor planning, poor ethics, and so many people trying to breed and having no real set goal or framework for what would be a good goal to accomplish or a good breeding program. The get rich quick mindset is playing a part with many peoples decision making and not really thinking about the animals or the "market". Just look at many of the questions on this forum alone for how early can I breed, or how will the babies look if I cross these two, or I want to breed my 6 month old male to my 10 month old female but they wont mate.........what should I do? All common questions seen on here and yet most of the people have no clue as to what goes into even raising a dragon to adult hood. What would be your method of "linebreeding" that you think would be beneficial to the bearded dragon market/industry and yield colorful healthy large babies for years to come??

I do not think I will get into breeding these guys, but if I were to start breeding herps again and beardeds were to be my choice I think I would decide on a particular color or pattern type and breed to that end. It seems as if there are a ton of bearded babies to be had and to breed just to produce offspring is not at all needed. So I would try to define a type and stick with it for years, avoiding the flavor of the month temptations and the urge to buy that reallly great find at the show that is not quite what I am breeding but looks so stunning ect. It does seem that with bearded dragons this may prove to be more difficult than with other species, avoiding the temptation to breed just because you can is the hardest part.
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Personally I like the variation we got from breeding our Red x Yellow/Orange Glow pair this year, as well as our Red x Snow line. Within each clutch their was a huge variation of colors. I like that.

Within the Red x Orange we got all orange, all yellow, orange & yellow, some red with orange, and one pale yellow. Within our Red x Snow line we got all white, all orange, white and orange, peach/yellow/lavender, and a few variations.

To me this is very exciting and I love to see the variation of colors and how they change. This to me is more exciting then developing just one strain of dragon and seeing the same thing over and over again hatch out.

I do not lack focus or direction with our breeding project. Next year I plan to offer more "line" colors by focusing on certain phases, but I will not stop breeding the Red x Orange and the Red x Snow line because I love the variation we get. And since I am the one shelling out thousands of dollars to breed my dragons I get to make that decision

I think adding an "all yellow" or "all orange" line would be cool to do in addition to our "mixed lines" I would be more inclined to do so if I could find quality dragons out there that would be worth breeding, but this is getting harder and harder to do.

Just a thought from a "breeders" end.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

A few good large breeders have breed line colors ANDpaid attention to what they are doing, they have some fine, hearty and beautiful dragons...... BUT the majority have breed solely for color and sales. It is showing in their offspring now.

Then toss in the ones like others mentioned that do not have a clue. They know they have a male and female (sometimes not) and in their minds that equals $$$ (thats a delusion). Often bought at the same time from the same pet store or breeder so probably siblings (they have no idea if they are or not!) Is it any wonder these boards and lists are full of people with sick dragons or babies that die? Those so called breeders bred them for that, and are doing too good a job of it!

We are very fortunate on here that there are a few private smaller breeders who bought quality to begin with and have been very concerned with not only color, but genetic line and health. They have the smarts to know the "just toss any two dragons together and breed baby dragons cause I want to be called a breeder" is very foolish

They have taken the best of the US colors AND followed the thoughts of the European breeders by tracing back lines with genetics, robustness and health. Their offspring show it also!!

Those are the breeders that spent not only the money to get quality to begin with, but did their homework first and continued doing it....many waiting two years or more to do it the right way.

They are also smart enough to know that the gene pool here is limited. Chances are good unless they know the lines several generations back,(and a few large breeders do) if they breed one line color to the same, you are matching past genetics to each other and increasing that polluted pool with each generation... keep breeding reds to only reds and you most likely will have some very messed up dragons (and the US does) as it would be almost impossible to not be mixing dragons that share a major portion of the same gene pool. NOTE: not all breeders, some have this down to a fine science. But the people just coming in and saying "I want to breed my dragons, I have a male and female, they are 4 months old, when can I"..... I want to SCREAM!

I applaud those that have the "smarts" to mix those lines, add in German Giant lines, put snows with orange or red... gads, those are gorgeous dragons and hearty! And I don't even really like orange and red..... I like gold's! But...... I like health and size first and foremost, thank God there are other breeders that do too and took the time to understand this industry before they started condemning others cause they are not breeding a line color....... AUGH!

No one can deny that some of the finest, healthiest babies around today are the Pastels, which is a mixture of lines, the reds breed to Zilla/Goldfroggys..... when you go to popular breeders site and see "Chris Allen" beauty as the breeder female or male..... it should tell you something!

Breed health, if you have color too, that's great, but color line alone is not better than health, vigor and knowing a baby has the best start in life it can.

Cheri I agree with you 100% about that and didn't want to get into all that with my post because I wanted to make a point and not have that point lost.

I am glad you pointed out your thoughts well yet again on this subject because even though we go around and around people still don't understand it. All of your information is something anyone with a bearded dragon really needs to know and understand. And for that I thank you again.

My goal from day one was to begin a breeding colony with colorful, large, healthy dragons and that is exactly what me and my gf have been able to do. We take great pride in that our dragons are huge and healthy and reach really big sizes both in length and weight at early ages which helps show how strong our lines are.

This is not a shameless plug - we are far from perfect. My point is that we will never be one of those "breeders" that breeds out dragons just for money and/or color. Our goal was to give something back to the dragon community when we started this project and not just be another breeder out there with weak, small, unhealthy dragons.

This is a hobby for me and my gf - a passion we share together that helps bring us closer together as a couple to have something to share. We don't do this for money, never will. Dragons are not the way to get rich.

I do agree that there are a lot of people out there that are clueless and need to get a clue about their dragons - fast. But not because they cross whatever with whatever, but because they take weak small dragons and cross them with weaker smaller dragons. I would rather have a normal large german giant over an incredible bright red (or any color) 200g adult dragon anyday.

Just my thoughts.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

is there something wrong with a small dragon that eats well, is active and seems otherwise healthy? Is size a sign of bad health? Do they live shorter lives? are they prone to illness? I am not being sarcastic. I really want to know what the problem is.
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

Personal preference Bennett. It's pretty much that simple. What I should have clarified in my previous post when I said "I would take a german giant over a 200g adult" - what I meant was for breeding purposes, not as a pet.

I would not breed a 200 to 300g dragon regardless of the color, length, background, etc. It is my personal opinion that most of these dragons are more prone to problems and have a harder time dealing with breeding.

I base this solely on my opinion from reading a ton of things, seeing a ton of god awful dragons everwhere, personal experience breeding our dragons, personal experience buying dragons that have sucked from a ton of different breeders, including a "top breeder" who sold me a $300 "screamer" 8" 4 month old female that ended up dying in 6 months who ate great (never bred her was a pet bc of her size which I got screwed on), and common sense.

I also base this on personal experience seeing my 450g females non gravid drop down to 350g or so after laying eggs for a few days from the toll of breeding and the stress they go under. It takes a lot of work and attention to get them back to weight in only three weeks before they drop another clutch... and then another clutch... and so on. I would not like to see a 200g or 250g dragon drop even lower after breeding.

I do not believe that a 200g dragon is going to handle this well and will not only cause her serious health problems, but will cause weak eggs, weaker genes yet again passed onto offspring who will once againg find their way into the market and be bred thus repeating the cycle.

If we're just talking about pets, then by all means get any dragon you like regardless of size, age, length, weight or what not. There are a ton of dragons out there that need good homes whether they live 1 year or 10. And i'm sure most of the smaller dragons out there right now that are colorful will do just fine as pets - not breeders.

We've got a couple tiny dragons that I wouldn't get rid of for anything, I love them. But they will never be breeders. Just cool dragons that hangout with us and have found a new home.

And no i'm not saying all small dragons are weak, sick, or whatever. But they should not be bred. And that was my point.

Just my opnion.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

I love to see diversity in a clutch too. Look at these guys,, all from the same parents, same clutch. I've got oranges, yellows, gold's, greens, browns, and every mix between. A bit for every taste (accept red lovers, sorry guys.) lol
This way there are some to fit everyone's budgets. I don't want to be stuck with a ton of normals, nor be stuck with a bunch of $2,000.00 dragons that I can't stand to sell for less. (do you get what I'm trying to say?) I wouldn't mind getting a couple of those. lol

I'm quite happy with my crew of mixed dragons (healthy happy little lizards).

Just my thoughts on the subject.
Joel R

Do you have any idea how much I panicked when you use to put her picture up? I freaked that someone else would see her and and make you an offer!!

I'd have to be out dragonnapping!

But this is a classic example. I wanted more than any a zilla/goldfroggy baby...... but I wanted a gold one, others people love the orange, greens and red ones and that what a lot of them where breed to.... two years I waited for a gold one again like your Sandy, thank you for breeding her to making that one "most beautiful dragon in the world"

She is plumping up. lol Her brothers are growing quick too. I sold Guy. I was sad to see him go but since I have Gimp and a few other secrets shhh.lol he found a new home.

As far as CC, I was going to keep her, you know that. But once I made up my mind with the surprise and all, I wouldn't have taken any offer for her. She gets the best possible home, everyone is happy,, well, the three of us are. lol

later.
Joel

Awesome looking babies Joel and a fantastic picture. To me, that picture right there is the EXACT reason why we breed our dragons... just look at how awesome each one of those dragons are.. each one looks different. How could you not get excited waiting for a clutch like that to hatch out?

It's so exciting to see the different colors after they shed out. I've seen first hand Joel's dragons and they are awesome, large, healthy dragons. You're doing things the right way man, keep it up!

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

Is that gila monster on your web site part of some new morph you're working on?
Or maybe an effort to get dragons to really breath fire?

Joking aside, you have some nice looking dragons on your site.

D.A.

LOL... yea, i'm trying really hard to cross him with Pumpkin but it's just not working! What am I doing wrong??? hahahha

Thanks for the complement, I appreciate that. We've been real lucky this year with some real nice clutches. The gila is a new project we are working on, but will be some time before that project gets off the ground to where I would like it to be.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

Now why am I suddenly reminded of one of my ex-wives? :-o

By the way, Brandon, what state are you in? I'm sure you or somebody here has said, but I don't remember, and I didn't find anything on your site telling where you are.
( "All of our hatchlings are born and raised here..." just didn't narrow it down much. )

D.A.

Another thing to think about is that responsible line breeding is a LONG term investment. You have to plan on years of losses on certain "lines" since the genetic wall of dragons is not deep enough to do what we do with dogs and other reptiles even. You can do one year of line breeding, but the next year you are probably going to have to outcross and "mess up" that color again or you are going to run into problems. We are talking about many years before you can "perfect" any trait (whatever that means).
Of course, as Cheri mentioned, most breeders dont do this--it is a heck of a lot easier to buy two screaming dragons from the same line and breed them together. And heck, most breeders arent in this business long enough to line breed!
Dragons Den is the perfect example in my opinion of someone who does it right--isolating color traits while keeping size and hardiness--you bet he outcrosses a lot to unrelated, even European stock to keep that (did everyone notice him selling blood outcrosses and leucistic outcrosses this year--taking a profit loss you bet). It takes knowledge of genetics too of course.

And yes, dragons are not like snakes or leopard geckos when it comes to morphs.

The other thing to consider is that most breeders that cannot trace their lines back are probably line breeding without knowing it. Just think how many people have used for example red sandfires or redflames in their breedings. Two dragons that show similar color/pattern, PROBABLY share some similar genetic history. Just because you buy from two different breeders, does not mean you have unrelated stock. How many breeders out there have Dragons Den dragons, Dachiu dragons, now, Chris Allen dragons. Just look at this forum, many of us have related dragons, even siblings.

my 2 cents
Dana

Yes, I agree with you and that is an excellent point. It does take a long time to do that... would be a neat project to do if the genetic diversity was there as it is with snakes.. maybe one day in the future the average breeder such as myself will have more opportunities to have access to the genetic diversion.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

He is one of the larger breeders that I meant when I said some have it down to a science, because he is one of the few that has produced not only some fantastic color traits, but perserved the size, alertness and health of those lines.

I don't know for sure, but my guess is he is using european stock to breed into his also and must keep some extensive records... cause try as I might, I just don't see or hear documented problems there. His reds...... BIG KIDS! hearty and the ones that have grown to adults make me envious.

I was real impressed at Daytona to see his display tubs marked the way they were.... it says to me "I am not hiding something here, I care what goes on after the sale" And before anyone jumps me about giving him poo about the leucistics, I still don't think there are leucistic But that does not alter what I think of all the rest of his dragon lines!

On another note,I don't go looking for problem breeders. But moderating a dragon health forum, we see many illnesses, disease and problems. When we get the same illness over and over from owners seeking help and their dragons come from the same breeders/locations..... it does not take a rocket scientist to know there are some serious issues there. And to know where there ARE NOT problems.

As for sharing that with others, we do what we can within the legal boundries. But the intention is never to harm the good breeders. Saying this one state has a problem breeder and people thinking they now have to avoid that state is not the solution or what is even meant. If that were the case we would have to avoid almost all states, as ALL do report some cases.

Adenovirus first appeared in the US that I know of in Illinois, then Iowa, Wisconsin, California. Shortly after most states had cases. Going back even further the first documented case of it was in Australia!! So with that thinking we should avoid any dragon that came from there?? LOL, there went the industry!

Its a problem, we make others aware of it... and watch others who we know have dragons from some of the same breeders. Or when people report symptoms that could be related to it. I can't tell how many times we have contacted a breeder and talked to them.... how do you approach someone when you know the symptoms and history are there and not offend them by telling them you have concerns...... amazingly enough when we have, all were very willing to help, test and take steps..... but one.

We have contacted 8 in the last year, of those 7 cooperated in having them tested. 4 tested positive, 1 was negative and 2 others are testing now. AND ALL those took steps or will take steps that it will not spread!!

Those are the breeders that should be commended.... they protected all our dragons and future, many times they had to take steps that were heartbreaking, and I don't know if I could have done what some had to do