Reptile & Amphibian Forums

today my first clutch of dark phased alterna/arizona mountain king eggs started pipping. Im so excited! Ill try and post some pictures when they all come out.

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AMEN Shannon! Well put. Keep your Frankensteins away from alterna purists!

hmm.. never noticed the hybrid forum. next time I'll post there.

Just thought you might be intrested as this was my first ever clutch of eggs, and as I only have one alterna, and one arizona mountain king, i didnt have much of a chance for pure alterna.

Thanks for bursting my bubble anyway though.

Oh, and BTW, my "frankenstien" snakes look like perferct greeri. digital camera's not working right now though...

just like greeri?????????????See the problem???????You may sell them as such but will the next guy?????

bye bye now.

shannon brown
locales rule

OK OK, this guy posted in the wrong place, OR, did he??? Have you ever thought holistically about the alterna complex, particularly pre-Gartska taxonomy?? Look at the range of the whole group... alterna & blairi > thayeri > mexicana > greeri... now add pyromelana to the distribution and you will see a perfect horseshoe distribution of what was considered two species for many years (pyro being the separate). According to the systematic powers that be alterna & blairi, once separate subspecies, now synonymized, are different from thayeri, mexicana, greeri and pyromelana. In that regard, this guys cross is a hybrid. However, all freely interbreed, and in the wild, there is a steady state of transition intergrades through the whole complex right up to where greeri could meet pyromelana. There are no known specimens from this area of either. According to Robert Webb, an authority on Durango and Chihuahuan herpetofauna this intergrade probably exists in the remote and very difficult to access highlands of the Sierra Madre between these two similar snakes. It is a poorly collected area period due to access. The current taxonomic status is questionable at best. Besides, is an Indio Mt alterna bred to a Comstock blairs a less significant breach of genetics? What are we doing with no data F7 captive borns?

Regardless, it is of great interest to me, an alterna enthusiast if not an alterna purist (whatever that is) that this cross can and does happen. It has biological significance regardless of current distribution precluding it from happening in the wild.

Most importantly, this guy stated it’s his first clutch of eggs. I say good job. A polite nudge towards the “correct forum” was all that was needed. GBK forum has always been polite, mellow, and full of newcomers that seek advice from husbandry to field techniques. Let’s keep it nice.

Lastly, Frankenstein was not a hybrid. Rather, he was a mismatch of human genes from several source donors…. More like the no data F7 captive borns I just mentioned. L.O.L

.

??

I think the taxonomic definition of a hybrid is the progeny of an interspecies breeding and an intergrade is the progeny of an intersubspecies breeding.
If so the pyro/alterna cross would indeed be hybrids until the taxonomy changes and no amount of captive breeding is likely to change the taxonomy, you need to find the intergrades in the wild, even then taxonomists may only recognize them as closely related species. And mexicana would still have to be synonomized with alterna.
So we are a long way off from these being intergrades.

You are, no offence, simply a snake breeder, like all the other snake breeders. What you breed is of no importance, not to man and not to nature(by law). Think about it, you did not invent the reptiles or the husbandry to breed them. You simply enjoy the reptiles you choose.

With that in mind, your elevation to a purists is very odd. Are you pure? or are your charges, pure?

If you think your animals are pure, then you are highly mistaken. The only "pure" animals are offspring of wild pairings. The rest is your choice. I mean, your taking pure here, aren't you? Do you think the animals you have would have chosen eachother in nature?

What would you call the individuals that live 200 yds off the road? the ones between the known localities(roads)?? What are the ones that you do not know about??? You see, its only you who think your locals are pure, not the animals.

Are you telling me there are no greybanded kingsnakes between Alta loma and Juno roads, or between Juno and pandale or pandale and langtry or comstock and del rio. Or that whole area and Alpine or are their only greybands on the boyscout rd. ????? What are the ones between all these areas? What are the ones over the border in Mexico. There is more over there then in texas???????

With all that in mind, your locales are a little meaningless.

By the way, the name of this forum is "Kingsnakes-greybanded" This young fellas babies are indeed "kingsnakes with greybands" I know, I saw them. They have grey bands and are kingsnakes. Do you care to debate that? So, unless you name this forum "L.m.alterna" forum, he is accurate in coming here. But you may consider that at least half of his offspring are just that. The question is, which half? Thats silly huh? So are you!

Besides these are not hybrids, but instead intergrades, as the previous poster implied. Would you care to debate that? FR

Dear FR,
Does that stand for FRankenstein I presume? With that jab out of the way I'd just like to say I'm glad to find out that a pyro/alterna hybrid is just as pure a breeding as a Loma Alta [not alta loma as you referred to this infamous alterna hot spot]x Caruthers Creek breeding. I'm sure all the other people that collect and breed alterna will be as enlighted as I was by your lenghthy doublespeak post. Thanks a million. NOT!

I think FR might stand for Frank Retes. Just a guess.

Damn good guess.

The word pure sure seems to get used a lot in this bunch of posts?? Regardless, I believe what "FrankenRetes" was saying is that the pyro/alterna is no more artificial then the breedings we all do with our "same local", or thereabouts captive work.

Time will play it all out, but, (OH my gosh I am going to mention another whole family of snakes here) with demographic studies being done in rattlesnakes, there is great evidence of pair bonding, inbreeding, parental care and family groups. It all indicates that, at least some snakes, are way more social than we ever gave them credit for, or at least had evidence of. With kingsnakes being the highly derived group that they are, with multiple observations of most of these behaviors, it is extremely presumptious of any of us to pick up anything short of a breeding pair in the wild and then think that we are doing any thing pure. It's fun, it's interesting, we love it, there may be scientific interest, but it has the natural biological significance of Walt Disney... just like the supposed hybrid that started all of this.

And yet how many light phase Blair's do you find in the Davis Mtns. and how many speckled alterna phases do you find near Loma Alta. There are definite tendencies to the look of certain localities and some are just trying to reproduce the look in captivity. There can't be anything wrong with this, it's just our captive animals.
The fact that you can sometimes find two different males apparently trailing the same female would indicate that monogamy is not a hard and fast rule for alterna. This year 3 alterna found on the same night at Panther Canyon, I don't think it was just 3 buddies catching a few lizards before going home to their wives.

I couldn't agree more. It is very pleasing to see the great things many are doing with captive alterna, be it carrying the speckled pattern out through generations or mixing light phase to dark phase. It's whatever wets your whistle, and why not? I was only trying to point out that in terms of current day genetic knowledge, and in regards to the use of the term "pure", it's not really any different than crossing at the species level. I hope we get to the day when we really have a handle on the genetics of wild populations. Lots to do there first however...

It simply states, that what ever you do in captivity has nothing to do with nature. The offspring of animals produced in captivity do not, are not, and will not be important to nature. The animals in captivity are simply for your enjoyment.

If you all feel so strong about nature and its creatures, you may consider leaving them there.

If you are a student of nature, you should understand that there is more to difining what color and pattern survives than only genetics. Genetics is controlled by exterior forces. Think about that. FR

>If you all feel so strong about nature and its creatures, you may consider leaving them there.

Or you may take a few home to remind you of your usually all too brief time spent in nature. If their offspring look like the wild-caughts what's wrong with keeping them and perpetuating that look in captiviy? It's all just personal taste and no less valid a pursuit than producing the nicest looking hybrids. Even hybrids came from wild animals originally.

You can do whatever you like, its not important, other then to you. I never said it was wrong for you. What is wrong is telling or hinting that you are better because you do this or that. Are you better then Hognose breeders? or spotted night breeders? So why would you be better then a person who cares for snakes, no matter what local it is. Guess what, the fella in question keeps and hopes to breed Sand snakes, he does so because Sand snakes are wonderful snakes.

Also, I would consider that once out of nature, they will not continue to produce animals that look like the ones in nature. As the color and pattern is controlled by more then genetics.

I do have a little experience with this and these animals. On average, after three generations, the controlls are lost and the offspring do not look, act, or behave like wild animals. I have breed pure locals for many many generations, as well as crossed to other locals as well as crossed to other montane(saxicolis) kingsnakes. (i successfully bred these species for over 20 years)

Also, simply put, did u ever hatch a clutch from a WC gravid female, did the babies look alike? What becomes of these is what YOU decide to breed, not what would have bred in nature.

Also, to use a living animal as a postcard is sad, but its indeed common. I believe animals deserve more then that. If you want a post card to remind you of your wonderful experience, than take lots of pics. Remember, to take a individual from nature, is to kill it. Nature does not know or care what happens to it after its taken away. Also consider, that animal had a life, it had assoiations with the life around it.(whether you understand what that is or not) And you want it to be a postcard. I am sorry if this does not apply to you, but I do live where people from all over the world come and collect animals, merely to remind them of their time here. Thats indeed bums me out.

To clear up a little more, the Alterna male, was collected by a texan about 15 or 18 years ago(just a guess) the female pyro was excessed by Houston Zoo, some 25 years ago. Both animals were thought to be post reproductive. Also, FYI, the persons father, is a degreed herper, has worked in many eastern and western zoos, has published many papers on many reptiles, has lived in big bend and worked in the field there for many many years. I am his partner on field studies on montane rattlesnakes that has been officially permitted by game and fish, and supervised by the U of A, for a continous 13 years. He also keeps and breeds these montane rattlesnakes and the offspring are dispursed by Game and fish. The project has ties to several zoos and universities. So I get the feeling, the young man in question has a base of knowledge that may far exceed yours. Remember, he has been in the field with us, since his birth. I know, I carried those bigwhitefeet around on my back. FR

P.S. There is humor and reality contained in this post.

>>>You can do whatever you like, its not important, other then to you. I never said it was wrong for you. What is wrong is telling or hinting that you are better because you do this or that. Are you better then Hognose breeders? or spotted night breeders? So why would you be better then a person who cares for snakes, no matter what local it is. Guess what, the fella in question keeps and hopes to breed Sand snakes, he does so because Sand snakes are wonderful snakes.

I never put him down and I never said locality breeders were better.

>>>Also, I would consider that once out of nature, they will not continue to produce animals that look like the ones in nature. As the color and pattern is controlled by more then genetics.

I agree.

I do have a little experience with this and these animals. On average, after three generations, the controlls are lost and the offspring do not look, act, or behave like wild animals. I have breed pure locals for many many generations, as well as crossed to other locals as well as crossed to other montane(saxicolis) kingsnakes. (i successfully bred these species for over 20 years)

I have only bred to F2. With my non-locality snakes I don't know the grenerations.

>>>Also, simply put, did u ever hatch a clutch from a WC gravid female, did the babies look alike?

Yes, zonata. Yes they looked like the female.

>>>What becomes of these is what YOU decide to breed, not what would have bred in nature.

I know. I like to breed for the same look as the wild ones.

>>>Also, to use a living animal as a postcard is sad, but its indeed common. I believe animals deserve more then that. If you want a post card to remind you of your wonderful experience, than take lots of pics. Remember, to take a individual from nature, is to kill it. Nature does not know or care what happens to it after its taken away. Also consider, that animal had a life, it had assoiations with the life around it.(whether you understand what that is or not) And you want it to be a postcard. I am sorry if this does not apply to you, but I do live where people from all over the world come and collect animals, merely to remind them of their time here. Thats indeed bums me out.

It doesn't bum me out unless they are damaging rocks or taking mass numbers. I take pics and never more than a small number for myself. Postcard does not fully express it but it was the briefest word I could think of without getting poetic.

>>>To clear up a little more, the Alterna male, was collected by a texan about 15 or 18 years ago(just a guess) the female pyro was excessed by Houston Zoo, some 25 years ago. Both animals were thought to be post reproductive. Also, FYI, the persons father, is a degreed herper, has worked in many eastern and western zoos, has published many papers on many reptiles, has lived in big bend and worked in the field there for many many years. I am his partner on field studies on montane rattlesnakes that has been officially permitted by game and fish, and supervised by the U of A, for a continous 13 years. He also keeps and breeds these montane rattlesnakes and the offspring are dispursed by Game and fish. The project has ties to several zoos and universities. So I get the feeling, the young man in question has a base of knowledge that may far exceed yours. Remember, he has been in the field with us, since his birth. I know, I carried those bigwhitefeet around on my back. FR

That's great. Again I never put him down. I have an old wild-caught ruthveni that I've bred too. It came from Lloyd Lemke and has lived in three states. I've assited in studies on zonata and Charina that are being done under permit by CA F&G. But I never carried anyone on my back.

>>>P.S. There is humor and reality contained in this post.

You should try carrying a two year old in a back pack up 50 degree rocky slopes... It makes for better naps later!

Hey Frank, We should have bigwhitefeet carry us now!

Aaron, if we can ever get our Arizona work done, maybe we'll run into you in West Texas sometime? Cheers.

I saw one at a show here in San Antonio and it was beautiful! As long as you represent them as they are, I see no reason why to hate hybrids. If someone breeds an "unknown" locale to a 277 locale alterna and pass it off as pure 277, what's the difference? Should we stop breeding locality specific alterna? I think not.

Either way, I'd love to see some pics...
My Online Snake Lifelist

But I'd prefer to see them on the Hybrid Forum.

well, if you prefer to see them there, fine. but as FR said, this forum isn't called 'locality specific l.m. alterna'.

also, i don't think it was very nice of miss brown to jump all over the poor guy like that. she implied that none of us care what he has accomplished in successful breeding, just because of what he had bred. i was jumping up and down when my corn had her first clutch. i bred a candy cane to an albino. you'd probably consider That wrong, too, miss brown.
Seriously, all she did was discourage someone who had just accomplished something he'll never forget.
how can you be so rude? like someone said before, a nice nudge towards the hybrid forum would be more than enough.

Thank you!! Your point is more important than any of the hybrid mish mash, locality data, horror movies and purity discussion. It was what I was getting to from the very beginning...

He's just hatched his first group of eggs!! Let the celebration begin. Cheers saying it so eloquently.

Why are some of you doing no more than slamming this person for posting on the wrong forum? How about a little support for a first time breeder? He aquired some animals that "he" liked and bred them with successful results. He posted in the wrong place but yet you choose to give your views on the hybrid issue here. LOL. As the saying goes, if you don't have anythink nice to say don't say anything at all. Too bad most of the old time alterna guys don't post more often. They were very different (positive) in their approach to new hobbyists.

Steve Wit

Why are some of you doing no more than slamming this person for posting on the wrong forum? How about a little support for a first time breeder? He aquired some animals that "he" liked and bred them with successful results. He posted in the wrong place but yet you choose to give your views on the hybrid issue here. LOL. As the saying goes, if you don't have anythink nice to say don't say anything at all. Too bad most of the old time alterna guys don't post more often. They were very different (positive) in their approach to new hobbyists.

Steve Wit

I believe Shannon would prefer to be referred to as Mr. Brown.
Just a guess.

>>>>well, if you prefer to see them there, fine. but as FR said, this forum isn't called 'locality specific l.m. alterna'.

>>>>also, i don't think it was very nice of miss brown to jump all over the poor guy like that. she implied that none of us care what he has accomplished in successful breeding, just because of what he had bred. i was jumping up and down when my corn had her first clutch. i bred a candy cane to an albino. you'd probably consider That wrong, too, miss brown.
Seriously, all she did was discourage someone who had just accomplished something he'll never forget.
how can you be so rude? like someone said before, a nice nudge towards the hybrid forum would be more than enough.

I meant to be nice. I read the hybrid forum all the time. They are interesting to me even though I don't keep them. I have never discouraged anyone from keeping or making hybrids. I have a question posted there now. All I said was I'd prefer to see the pics there. Sorry if it sounded rude.
If you have a problem with what Shannon Brown said why don't you tell him? He is a good friend of mine but we are not clones.
As far as the rest of my posts, I knew it was Frank because years ago I asked if he knew where I could get pure locality mexicana. I don't have a problem with hybrids but he said to me locality collectors are stupid. He said it again here. I never attacked anyone, all I said was I like locality specifics and stated that it was just my personal taste.

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Congratulations. I have never bred hybrids before but I remember my first captive breeding/hatching. It was Thayer's Kings. I got about 13 eggs and only one hatched but it was still exciting. I did not mean to demean your acomplishment, I only meant that the hybrid forum would be a better place to post the pics. I still want to see them. I apologize if my manner of spreaking sounded rude.
I'm actually glad you posted here now because it led to the discusion of the close relationships of pyromelana, mexicana, and alterna. I think it was one of the most interesting posts ever on this forum.

Thanks for the kind words towards bigwhitefeet Aaron. The most important thing we can do is not discourage our youthful herpers.

And this was an interesting discourse. It is an interesting systematics problem for sure. And for the record, I am very clear on the fact that by current taxonomy an alterna x pyro is a hybrid. My inference to the the opposing viewpoint is to encourage newcomers into questioning the literature and look at what's right there before you. I have described species and published on other subjects many times. I'd like to believe I have done good science. I tried my best. Through these experiences I have learned that there are shortcomings in some published works that are nevertheless accepted. Then add the controversy between the evolutionary versus biology species concepts. It leads to many questions. I believe the current taxonomic designations for the aforementined kingsnakes in this thread are inaccurate. I also know that the correct thing to do is get out there, get the data and correct the whole mess. Sounds like a good excuse for a road trip, but maybe for someone a tad younger than I....

I found your information extremely intersting and I appreciate it very much. I am not a scientist and generally not that excited by taxonomy but love to hunt alterna and the thought that greeri could be breeding with pyromelana in the wild is facinating. I have wondered weather splitting alterna from mexicana was warrented. I've also said to a few friends that I thought greeri head and body shape looked similar to pyromelana. Thank you very much for sharing your information.

Yeah, Taxonomy is what I use to use for insomnia! It is funny how so many of us (myself included) are not that intersted in pursuing taxonomy, or more importantly systematics, as a practice, yet so many are ready to stand up and argue about it with such passion.

Hey, how do you define scientist? I say anyone who asks and then tries to answer a thoughtful question. Sharing your thoughts only adds gravy. I think you qualify.

One of the most informative herpetologists of Chihuahuan desert herps that I ever met was a non high school graduate saddle maker in Terlingua. He taught me so much about alterna that I had to laugh at what I read elsewhere!

regardless of your sex, you were still unnecessarily rude. i guess i was too focused on how mean you were to bigwhitefeet to notice or care about your gender.

Aaron, i apologize for being snappy to you, too. reading what mister brown had written got me pretty angry, as it wasn't too long ago it was my first clutch hatching. my anger at him also got aimed at you. i'm sorry. i agree with you that his post might be better suited for the hybrid forum, but since the babies are half (or at least half) greyband, i think they also have their place here.

only half alterna.If you got so mad reading the first post from shannon you must be guilty as well?
Hybrids are fine but they don't belong here.

bye bye now.

Well, you are half right I suppose...

What I don't get is why all of you are so uptight about "half an alterna" and don't say squat about "indigos in the hill country", or "collecting trips to big bend that report on everything but alterna" and so on and so on... (For the record I was happy to read both of the above threads right where they are)

Maybe you only critique "half" of the so called wrongful posts.