Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well Ross Allen claimed he had seen hundreds, all of the discriptions that I have read never mention the eye mask or dotting or speckels on the head, his common discription was "pale/grey or buff head" and I have personaly seen ten over the last twenty years, have also seen lots of photos from different individuals and my guesses on locality are usally accurate, Mark can tell you I'm no amature in the feild. Ocala pines are very distinctive(orange posterior, black flecked anteriors),so are duval co. pines (very maroon or brick red and no black or very little), most I have seen were from dade city and all were very similier as well(silverish colored). also Tom I have been told by oldtimers of groups of pines that were found in panhandle where thay are more common and then released south in the state to control rodents in citrus groves, this could explain interior fla. pinesnakes look like the northern fla. pines, most groves are in the spine of the state. Search this "Indexed Bibliography of the Herptofauana of Florida" check out citations 57.-154.from R. Allen, I'm not trying to change your minds but I have been throughly convinced that true southern florida pinesnakes have no, not even remnants of the eye mask, but I have concidered the theroy about the coastal pines being cleaner and I could still be wrong...of all the pines that I have seen, all come from only four or five different countys. as for my pics posted, the pines on the tennis net are from wild adults found in orange co. and the big one in the hole and on the fence was found in sarasota co. Damn midnight! so whata ya say Tom, do I have a point? JB

Thanks for the citation JB. I'll see if I can look that up. I find the Ross Allen thing to be very interesting. I saw him once years ago at Silver Springs giving a rattlesnake presentation. As I recall, Silver Springs was in Ocala. Do you think the description of the mugitus that he gives is based upon local specimens from the Ocala area or from throughout the state? I know he used to bring in the hides from EDB's from all over and sell them. I know he also payed for indigo snakes collected from all over to feed his king cobra's in his collection.

The type specimen of mugitus was found in the extreme southern part of their range in Palm Beach county. It would be interesting to read the description of the type specimen. I think you may be on to something as far as trends go but I suspect there is too much natural variation within populations of Pits to speak in absolutes.

A couple of examples for you. The bullsnakes of the Kankakee sand prairie in the upper midwest are well known to have a certain definable look. I can tell you from experience that while many of these animals fit this description, there are others there that do not. The same can be said for the northern pine from the pine barrens of N.J. While well known for the classic black and white pine snake there is a large degree of variation including those with gray body color, reddish body color and even yellowish. Some of these snakes have clearly defined anterior blotching while others are so suffused with melanin that there is no separation of the blotches at all. Some have unpatterned heads while others have heads that are almost completely black. Anyhow, my point is trends are one thing and absolutes are something else entirely.

Phil

hmmmmm.. I have seen huge clutches of eastern coachwhips hatched and every one was a lil different in base color and in markings but all look very much related and I've seen pines hatched at the expo in orlando and some were light and some were dark but none had the eye mask all 10 were different but the same, what Im trying to say is that they change in every county and you may be right about the "interior state snakes" because their somewhat isolated on the ridges by miles of swamps in between, and the ridges are continous from the north to the south, also I have mostly seen pines from coastal areas. The ocala pines are the proof here in that every ocala pine I have ever seen, in books or on the net and the few I have seen in person all look the same. and the three I found in sarasota were all grey and had brown blotches and perfectly clean heads, and all three were found in different corners of the county, and lets not forget floridas geographic design, being a peninsula not open land with a border thats not an ocean or gulf,like the bullsnakes range, point being, locals breed only with locals that look the same without the availibility of intrusions here. I get the notion your an intelligent guy and if you had seen what I have you would take my word.no offence and much respect for your knowledge.

I really like this discussion JB and I can tell that you are a guy that appreciates the variation that occurs in nature. I am far from an expert on this subject but I do appreciate the opinions and personal experiences that I have heard from you and others.

Speaking of darker colored mugitus. I have noted that those from south Ga and interior north Fl (the ANF for example) are generally dark in coloration compared to those in the peninsula. A friend of mine did find a specimen last year in the western panhandle (Okaloosa county) that was very light colored. I have seen photo's of a number of others from that locale that were much less attractive and were very dark.

I completely agree with you on the fact that the bulk of sayi's range is connected in some form or another. The example I cited from the Kankakee sand prairie however is not. This is a relic population of snakes that are not contiguous in any way with any population of sayi. Much the same can be said for the pine barrens melanoleucus.

Phil

Thats great phil, My intentions are just to find and secure a pair of specimens that fit the "coastal "southern florida typical color variant soon before their gone, which will be soon if not already at least in sarasota, hardee and desoto counties. though near impossible to find while searching for, they did show up dead on roads but don't anymore. fwc thinks pines are just secritive but again if the fwc knew what I knew from spending so much down on my knees and all the huge piles I've worked and find only corns and racers and as a kid we jumped every fence in the state, I have been all over and am genuinly concerned that one day, after I'm dead and gone that the reptile breeders trade offers the northern color varaiant as typical fla pines,the fact is very few people have seen the snake I'm looking for, here is a pic frank zappilortti took and is published in a paperback titled Pinesnakes by Mara. and to all that think snakes should be left alone, Imagine not having a S. pine availible like this, and to this day george at the reptile World in St.Cloud has the only thing close to this gene...Joe B

I wouldn't pass up one of those pines mark and his buddies found last year,you know the one! ...either one would please me but we keep losing these impressive genes somehow... heat, stress, parisites? Im hoping to find a gravid female in the indian river co. area as that is where frank took that shot. JB

Do you mean Robert Zappalorti? Either way, I agree with you. That is one fine looking southern pine.

I'll see if I can get more info on that snake.

Phil

Okeechobee County last year

-----
Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

Thanks for the photo Lloyd. That snake is very handsome and has the dark mask that Joe was talking about yet it is from south Florida.

Any photo's of an adult from that area?

Great looking snake and thanks for the photo!

Phil

Perfect example! the mask is not even slightly eveident in the pines to the north and east, the only explaination that I could come up with is this is a decendant of the pines found in the north and released to control rodent populations in the citrus groves in the south back in the fourties when they scraped the sandhills to make groves, I've been told of truckers that would run over snakes were told to bring live gopher snakes to the citrus groves and they would pay 10$ and the guy that told me was 65 and said he was one of many that collected on the roads in the panhandle and even mentioned okeechobee as the most common place to get money for snakes and jim watt, one of floridas most productive collectors in the 70s and 80s also confermed that he did not understand how the pattern on a few pines that he found in the south look like pines he only found in the north. We beleieve that only northern pines have black and the true southerns have no black at all anywhere! this is why black pigment increases as you approach the georgia border..I'm confident that if dna testing was done on the pb co. pine there is not a doubt in my mind this would give me the credit of proof. oh and phil, I did mean bob z. not frank Z.

Check the pic in the post below "another pile of baby northern pines" notice how patch sizes are variable, color is also variable,patch spacing is variable as well but every one has the mask over the eyes and alike spots on the head...

I am sure if you contact someone at the fla museum of natural history or with natural resorces/fish and wildlife, that if this was an actual policy (to relocate pines)they should have some record that would be able to verify it. having that kind of paperwork in hand I am sure someone based at a state university would be interested in following up with dna testing.

the results of that would be very very interesting.
daveb
-----
in the light, you will find the road...

I'm just guessing that the grove owners were paying the truckers, not state policy! I'd love to see what dna tests show.

Well, I realize things change over the years but there are no major groves close to where she was found......
-----
Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.