Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is my roommate's snake. She has owned it for several years and she calls him a bull snake, but recently we were looking for some health information on him (he is obviously too skinny) and someone said they have never seen a bull snake with his color and he could be a pine snake. Could someone try to identify him? I apologize that I do not have better photos.

I also own a snake which I was told is a Guyana rainbow boa. He is my first snake and was bought from an exotics shop in KY who obtained him from a show (I wanted a BRB but they were overpriced). I am now wondering if there is such a thing as a Guyana rainbow since I can't find much information on it. Could it be a Columbian or even a mix of two species?

The first pic is a patternless pine snake. Most likely a Southern, because they are the most common. But it could also be a Northern. Not sure what to tell you to look for to distinguish between the 2. One thing's for sure, it is definitely TOO skinny.

The second one is not a Guyana Rainbow (yes, they are a legitimate subspecies). Guyanas are the most expensive Rainbow species, and look totally different than that. I think there is definitely Colombian in there, but it doesn't look 100% to me. I think Colombians are usually drabber than that. So your idea of it being a Colombian x Brazilian could be correct, but again hard to fully determine without knowing exactly where it came from. Hope that helps. You really didn't need too much of it, as you were already on the right track.

After doing a little checking, I think that actually is a Guyana. I was mixed up, and was actually thinking of a Peruvian as being the one that it couldn't be. Wait til ChrisH or DMong get to it, and I'm sure they'll be able to clarify for you.

Thank you. My roommate has been calling this snake a bull snake, and when I did some Googling (obviously not the best method here) I was given conflicting information that pine snakes are also called "bull snakes" and "gopher snakes", and then that they are separate species but both are called gopher snakes. Confusing. And yes, we're working on getting this snake to a vet to check for parasites.

Interesting about my boa. The subspecies always confused me, especially since I can't even identify my snake without some trepidation. Thanks again for the info. Unfortunately this is the best pic I have of his rainbow sheen but it's really nice.

The light colored, overly-thin snake is a patternless Southern Pine Snake(Pituophis m. mugitus), and the other looks to indeed be a Guyanan Rainbow Boa (Epicrates c. crassus) typically imported out the northern area.

Is the patternless Southern not eating?, they should be very robust and thick-bodied.

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Hello, my roommate just called and insisted he was an albino bull snake.. I'm not going to argue semantics over her species of snake, I'm not an experienced snake keeper and I think nutrition is more important than what kind of snake it is right now.

Since I've only known her a year I am not sure of her care and maintenance, but I know she has not feed him often or on a schedule for a long time. Sometimes he goes a month or slightly longer without food, and is fed 2 live mice when he is fed (again it isn't my snake, although I suggested f/t because he has had injuries from live prey). She just bought two mice and a rat pup (I've heard rats offer a little more nutrition?) to feed him because it has been a month or more since he has eaten. She was looking to rehome him because she cannot give him adequate care (especially with the lack of feeding).

I seriously doubt it's an albino anything,...but you can easily clarify this by looking at the eyes. If the eyes are red, or deep ruby/blood-red, then it's albino(amelanistic). If the eyes are dark black colored, then it's a patternless Southern like I mentioned before, I can only see the pic from a fair distance, but it doesn't look "clean"enough to be an albino.

One thing I will say, the snake would be MUCH better off in someone elses care that won't mind giving it a decent feeding schedule....it really needs some weight put on it's bones.

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

" One thing I will say, the snake would be MUCH better off in someone elses care that won't mind giving it a decent feeding schedule....it really needs some weight put on it's bones. "

She just fed him a mouse and a rat pup today and has another few mice ready for feeding in a week (instead of feeding every 1½ weeks or 3 or 4). She said if he doesn't begin to look better in a month she's taking him to a vet to check for parasites. I hope he doesn't regurgitate.
-----
Sabarika

Concerning the Epicrates (rainbow boa), it gets confusing. There
was a good discussion on the different subspecies of SA mainland rainbow boas a few months ago:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1503986,1503986

Also, some good info at:

http://www.corallus.com/cenchria/index.html

I believe crassus is used to describe the Paraguayan "subspecies", not the Guyanan (unnamed?). Also, in that new book
by Mark O'Shea, he seems to separate out Guyanans (along with
Colombans) from the rest of the subspecies.

To me they're all just really nice rainbow boas (E. cenchria).

Thanks,
Ed

>>The light colored, overly-thin snake is a patternless Southern Pine Snake(Pituophis m. mugitus), and the other looks to indeed be a Guyanan Rainbow Boa (Epicrates c. crassus) typically imported out the northern area.
>>
>> Is the patternless Southern not eating?, they should be very robust and thick-bodied.
>>
>>
>> best regards, ~Doug
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Guyanan Boas(crassus) aren't only from Guyana, but they have to be named something. They are also found in Paraguay, Brazil, and Argentina where the ssp. alvarezi is also found.

I totally agree with you in regards to many ssp. being problematic, and hard to nail down one way, or the other, just as in MANY other subspecies of snake. But although the common name suggests it comes from only one area, it is also found in the other neighboring areas I mentioned as well.. Intergrade specimens would surely make positive identification tougher to impossible further yet.

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

...alvarezi, I just got this little guy a few weeks ago...

>>Guyanan Boas(crassus) aren't only from Guyana, but they have to be named something. They are also found in Paraguay, Brazil, and Argentina where the ssp. alvarezi is also found.
>>
>> I totally agree with you in regards to many ssp. being problematic, and hard to nail down one way, or the other, just as in MANY other subspecies of snake. But although the common name suggests it comes from only one area, it is also found in the other neighboring areas I mentioned as well.. Intergrade specimens would surely make positive identification tougher to impossible further yet.
>>
>>
>> best regards, ~Doug
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Very nice Argentinian indeed!.....do you breed them?

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks! I wish I bred them, but unfortunately breeding any snakes is not in the cards for me right now. Just have this one Argentinian rb along with my Indigo.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Very nice Argentinian indeed!.....do you breed them?
>>
>>
>> ~Doug
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Is it a Florida Indigo?

As a young kid, I grew up in south Florida in the late 60's early 70's, I owned several of them at different times. That was just prior to their being put on the endangered list, and all their habitat being cleared and built upon.

I think they are probably the MOST regal, and highly revered serpent in North America,........I have fond memories of bringing big Indigo's to my third grade "Show & Tell" sessions from time to time.........what great animals!

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Yes, it's a couperi. He's awesome, best snake I've ever had.
I always wanted to get one, so last year when my wife finally forgave me for the boa constrictor escape incident 10 years ago, I was able to finally get another pet snake. I chose the eastern Indigo, and I'm glad I did.

Must be great to have seen and caught them in the wild! Must have been a real treat. Too bad those days are gone.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Is it a Florida Indigo?
>>
>> As a young kid, I grew up in south Florida in the late 60's early 70's, I owned several of them at different times. That was just prior to their being put on the endangered list, and all their habitat being cleared and built upon.
>>
>> I think they are probably the MOST regal, and highly revered serpent in North America,........I have fond memories of bringing big Indigo's to my third grade "Show & Tell" sessions from time to time.........what great animals!
>>
>>
>> best regards, ~Doug
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

LOL!!,....AWESOME! that must have cost a pretty penny to say the LEAST!

Which reminds me,...you will just LOVE this!....back around 1972 or so, some older kids came to my house and wanted to sell me an absolute "MONSTER" of an Indigo,...in fact, it was the largest I've ever seen in my entire life(8.5 - 9 ft long).

The REAL irony in this story is,...those kids wanted to sell it to me for $8.00 bucks!!!,..YES, EIGHT whole dollars!,,hahaha!

The very SAD part is,....being only twelve years old back then, I didn't HAVE eight bucks!

I kept harping to my mom to please buy it for me, and that I'd literally do ANYTHING in the way of chores afterwards....Well, she claimed I wasn't getting very good school grades at the time, so I had to watch those two kids march off into the sunset with that BEHEMOTH of a serpent draped over both their shoulders, never to be seen again..........wow!,...those were truly different times back then,.....less than a dollar per foot for that noble beast!!!,...Oh!, what a painful memory it was!..LOL!

anyway, thanks a bunch for posting that great looking Indigo!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

That's a great story, thanks for sharing. I bet you were mad at Mom for a long time. Eight bucks!?! Multiply that by 100... and it's still not enough... for a *baby* Indigo these days!

Thanks for the compliments, I'm curious to see how big my Indigo
gets. I can't even imagine how awesome a 9 foot specimen would be to see in person.

Thanks,
Ed

>>LOL!!,....AWESOME! that must have cost a pretty penny to say the LEAST!
>>
>> Which reminds me,...you will just LOVE this!....back around 1972 or so, some older kids came to my house and wanted to sell me an absolute "MONSTER" of an Indigo,...in fact, it was the largest I've ever seen in my entire life(8.5 - 9 ft long).
>>
>> The REAL irony in this story is,...those kids wanted to sell it to me for $8.00 bucks!!!,..YES, EIGHT whole dollars!,,hahaha!
>>
>> The very SAD part is,....being only twelve years old back then, I didn't HAVE eight bucks!
>>
>> I kept harping to my mom to please buy it for me, and that I'd literally do ANYTHING in the way of chores afterwards....Well, she claimed I wasn't getting very good school grades at the time, so I had to watch those two kids march off into the sunset with that BEHEMOTH of a serpent draped over both their shoulders, never to be seen again..........wow!,...those were truly different times back then,.....less than a dollar per foot for that noble beast!!!,...Oh!, what a painful memory it was!..LOL!
>>
>>
>> anyway, thanks a bunch for posting that great looking Indigo!
>>
>>
>> ~Doug
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Yes, I was pretty "bent" over that ordeal for quite some time,.........going on 36 years now!..hahaha!

Like you mentioned,...babies anywhere from $900 to $1,500 dollars...and I saw a big 7 1/2 foot male advertised for $4,000 bucks the other day!.....hmmm, lets see $8.00 then, and $4,000 dollars now!,.....I'd say there's a slight difference there..

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

..
-----
Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake (Eddie Gein)
0.0.2 Cornsnakes (Lyle & Erik Menendez)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Black Cat (Shadowfax)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan) (Deceased )
1.0 Tennessee Walking Horse (Durango)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

I bought one in about 1957 for a buck a foot. Beautiful five footer. Red chin & throat so good the red didn't totally disappear until more than halfway down the length of the snake. It ate my younger brother's four foot corn.

~~Greg~~

n/p
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

The indigo didn't get more red after it ate the corn snake, did it?

Thanks,
Ed

>>I bought one in about 1957 for a buck a foot. Beautiful five footer. Red chin & throat so good the red didn't totally disappear until more than halfway down the length of the snake. It ate my younger brother's four foot corn.
>>
>> ~~Greg~~

I just took this pic not 30 min ago.
If his eyes look like this then he's an albino...
obviously.

Get him on a good feeding regimen but maybe don't overfeed right away and cause a regurge..At this stage of the game with him a regurgitation could be very traumatic on him and maybe begin a bad turn. Feed him fair sized meals but don't overdo it at first. He'll respond like no tomorrow if he's healthy enough now.
The rainbow looks like a Guyana to me. They can be somewhat variable as all of them are.
:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Nope, he definitely has dark eyes (brown-ish with black pupil). That and his scales aren't white, they are a white with tan accents on them. I doubted he was albino when I met her but I am not going to correct someone about their animal when they are so convinced otherwise and it isn't hurting him.

She fed him a mouse and rat pup today, and has another mouse ready for his next feeding. I hope he doesn't regurge.

Do you think the owner would really be personally offended if you just explained the difference to them in a polite manner?,.....most people would rather know for certain what they own, and would actually welcome the difference explained to them.

In any case, it's definitely a patternless Southern Pine.

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

At this point I don't believe so. I emailed her links to photos of bull snakes and of pine snakes of different varieties and she was pretty shocked and now isn't very confident that her snake is a bull. She said when she bought him the paperwork she signed stated he was a bull snake. Now she says it's very possible he's a pine snake. I do appreciate the help I've gotten here, and I certainly wouldn't mind knowing the difference because without scrutiny I couldn't tell.
-----
Sabarika

If it makes her feel any better, let her know that it's not the least bit unusual for pet shop employees to not know what they are selling...or maybe even bend the truth a little, but usually they just don't know.

Herpetologists don't make a LOT of money, but most won't work part time for minimum wage...
-----
What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

If she bought him in Florida,I can guess why he was labeled a Bull.....
-----
Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

n/p
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I guess so. Except she bought him in North Carolina.. are they common here? Sorry, I don't know much about the native species except the venomous ones.
-----
Sabarika

The Pine Snake in North Carolina is isolated to mainly the southern Sandhills and coastal plain of the southern portion of the state. Due to their habitat loss from human development, they have been on the list of "species of special concern" for some time now.

The other poster's comment being about if it was sold in Florida was because it is illegal to do so in the state of Florida unless the animal is an albino form.

In any case, the patternless morph she has is from captive breeding, and the patternless mutation first appeared in a captive bred clutch of Southern Pines in the late 90's. They are fairly common in the hobby today.

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

...looks like the amel has eggs..
:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Great news, Mark!!

-----
Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

That looks like a typical Guyanan Rainbow to me. The rainbows that are imported out of the Guyanas vary, but a lot look like that. I suspect they are simply maurus x cenchria intergrades.

They are beautiful snakes, whatever the name. I think they are better looking than the Brazilians (cenchria) anyway.
-----
Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas