Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Really, and all those super cheap Psammophis are going to only specialist people anyway. People have sold them in pet stores
as totally harmless."

Quote from MSTT:
"Psammophis were being sold in pet stores to children in Georgia quite recently, and there was a very nasty bite to a store
employee who had no idea that these colubrids were venomous"

Yes really, I said most, not all of them. So stop twisting my words. You should know there will always be
exceptions.
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"My point is simply that it is not the exception but rather the rule for the vast majority of the species.The exception is the well-characterised species (either well known as harmless or well known as harmful)."

I stongly disagree with your statement. Do you have any proof? You say they are selling these dangerous colubrids to all these children but none of these children are dieing or becoming seriously ill. Why? How long do you think it would take to figure out how dangerous Naja nivea or Tropidechis carinatus were if these snakes were sold in pet shops to children? Not very long!

Now go look at the Kingsnake.com's classifieds section and tell me how many of these so-called dangerous colubrids you see being offer to children. For the record, Kingsnake.com is probably the largest portal for selling and buying reptile in the world.

MSTT says they are selling Psammophis in Georgia to children. Guess what? PERMITS ARE REQUIRED TO
POSSES ANY NON-NATIVE SPECIES OF VENOMOS REPTILE INCLUDING REAR-ED FANG
COLUBRIDS(Ref. A Field guide to reptiles and the law, John P. Levell, page 88.)Do you think all of these
children have permits for rear-ed fang snakes? I don't think so. You see, no matter what laws are pass you will
always have someone breaking them.

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"The definition of 'rear-fanged' is a rather arbitrary one isn't is? Coventionally this includes very few animals (usually formally limited to Dispholidus, Rhabdophis and Thelatornis). Philodryas, Malpolon, Psammophis etc. are hardly ever even known to exist let alone formally dealt with."

What are you talking about? There's ton of information on the toxicity of rear-fanged colubrids including the ones you mention. Here, take a look for yourself. http://bio.bd.psu.edu/dmm/snake/snake.htm

Yhttp://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:S3e-RXKef20J:www.northdevon.gov.uk/services/licensing/animals.pdf+rhabdophis,dangerous+animal+act&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
You see Dr. Fry, we already knew this.

Most of them are wild caught and are infected with a zillion parasites. A lot of them need special food items like
lizards and frogs.

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"This is irrelevant since people have been working with specialist animals for ages now and are not reticent to take on new ones."

I was talking about kids taking care of them, not a specialist.

"Over time they often become established and bread in significant numbers. In anycase, many of these colubrids are easy to keep alive."

Can you name any of the so-called dangerous colubrids being bred in significant numbers?

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What's funny about this is noone has ever died from a bite of a rear fang-ed snake because of its so-called potent
"three finger toxins". The way you and WW talk about how common these "dangerous colubrids" are in the pet
trade and how POTENT their venom is you would think people would be droping like flies! Makes you want to
say HMMMMMM. The fatalities cause by the three colubrids known to be fatal to man(Dispholidus
typhus,Thelotornis ssp. and Rhabdophis tigrinus)were cause by the haemotoxins in the venom not by three finger
toxins you claim to be so potent to man.

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"The venoms are not limited to containing three finger toxins, that is merely the first class we have started sequencing. The M12B metalloproteinases (the lethal proteins in Dispholidus, Thelatornis and Rhabdophis) are widespread in the venoms as well."

What are you looking for? The Boogy man? How long do you think it took humans to figure out how venomous black mambas were. If these colubrids were as highly venomous to humans as you claim there would have been many fatalities. Dr. Fry, in my honest opinion your extreme science is begining to look like a Witch Hunt.

I think you are missing the point(s) entirely

I said that they were selling animals for which very little knowledge is available. Many of the species which have become recently available have little data known. Psammophis is merely the best example due to the high numbers imported and cheap price. I did not however say that it was the rule that they were all dangerous. The key remains that these snakes are putting out the same venoms as an elapid and while many are certainly of only trivial concern there are also a fair number that pose potential serious medical risks.

As for kingsnake classifieds (not to single KS out), Boiga blandingii is listed in the colubrid (non-venomous) section. Not a snake that would be considered harmless by any reasonable standard.

There is actually bugger all known about the venoms for the vast majority of the species. Our studied was the first time that the majority of the species included had ever had their venom analysed. We aimed for the maxium taxonomical breadth (including representatives from most of the families).

As for which are being bred in significant numbers, the various species of Philodryas have become quite popular and are being bred in captivity. As the other snakes become more worked with, more breedings are a logical outcome.

As for how long it will take for some of these snakes to be recognised as venomous (outside of the lab), that is a matter of exposure.

All we are after is that a repeat of the Rhabdophis debacle does not occur. I am not advocating bans of any shape or form and I would have thought that would have been abundantly clear to you by now.

Bryan

All this bullsh*t talk about the Psammophis is totally p*ssing me off.

I work in Africa for 8 years now.
I was bitten by Psammophis biseriatus, Psammophis punctulatus and Psammophis sudanensis repeatedly. We would have "who catches more Psammophis" contests between me and my collectors when bored as they are very common in some Areas in East Africa. We catch them by hand and get bitten all the time. Much worse then the bites always was getting them crappy thorns off the Acacia shrubs in your fingers ! Compared to them the bites are a joke. The Psammophis do have pretty long teeth and you may loose a few drops of blood if they give you a good bite but never ever has any of my collectors nor me had more then a sizzling sensation at the bite sight and slight head aches (after several bites all day long). However the headaches may just aswell be from the sun and the sizzling sensation off the acacia thorns.

These are the most commonly exported Psammophis from East Africa and whoever is trying to tell us that they are a serious threat to anyone buying them should look for another job as he just frankly spoken does not know sh*t from a tree.

(the only exeption may be an allergic reaction but then your cat is just as much a threat)

Thomas Price

Actually larger specimens (ie adult Psammophis mossambicus) are looking very likely to be quite capable of very severe envenomations. They have a potent, very complex venom and some of the biggest bloody glands we've seen (including comparing to quite a large number of elapids).

Psammophis mossambicus
http://www.venomdoc.com/ryan/Snakes/Glands01.jpg
http://www.venomdoc.com/ryan/Snakes/Glands02.jpg

Telescopus dhara
http://www.venomdoc.com/ryan/Snakes/Glands03.jpg

Keep in mind that there is not any available antivenom. That makes the bite that much more dangerous. You really want to roll those dice?

Have a read through the paper.

Cheers
B
Colubroidea snake venom evolution

I'm afraid I have to side with Price on this one. in the course of 30 years of collecting and keeping, I have been envenomated or just plain bit by every one of the snakes you have mentioned except the Telescopis and that is probably because i have never kept any except dhara and those have allways shown a complete unwillingness to nip. Your rolling the dice in my book whenever I get close to a guiena pig (which can really put me in serious respiratory trouble. As to be stings or even Flea allergies. The world is full of potential danger when you walk out the door. As previously stated I do not favor minors keeping any Ogyph species, but for the rest it is a judgement call and common sense should prevail....There IS aworld of difference between venomous and dangerous...Frank

Hi mate

>.There IS aworld of difference between venomous and dangerous

Which is what I've been saying all along. However severe bites have been recorded for Psammophiinae such as Psammophis and Malpolon. This is discussed in the paper.

Cheers
BGF

BGF What are you trying to prove with those pictures ?

Of course they are back fanged and therefore must have venom glands we all know and knew that before you cut the snakes appart so what are you trying to prove here ???

Why should I now be convinced that they are dangerous after looking at those 3 links ?

The fact is that they are not capable of inflicting a dangerous bite to humans. Tons of people have been bitten by them. Im certainly not the only one. And fact is that you can not come up with a single case history of a serious envenemation which was anywhere near life threatening.

So what are you tring to proove ???

AM NOT IMPRESSED SO FAR.

Hi Tom

Have a read through the paper and you'll understand what we are trying to say. And yes, severe bites are on record for Psammmophis. I'll dig the exact references out when I get back (I'm in the field at the moment catching sea snakes).

In a nutshell, we have discovered that all of the various 'colubrid' lineages put out venoms containing some of the exact same toxins as you'd expect to find in an elapid. The venoms are as complex and as potent as any of the elapids.

Cheers
B

In no way are we advocating bans on these animals as pets (I think anyone should be able to keep whateve they want). However, some of these families (such as the entire Psammophiinae family) need to be considered as 'venomous' in the practical sense as well as in the technical sense.

Followup to this article is a paper showing the ranges of neurotoxicity, some of 'colubrids' are deep into elapid-level neurotoxicity.

To show how things get overlooked, Atheris species were thought to have pretty mild venom until an absolutely devastating bite occured a couple years ago and the venom was revealed to be able to do an Echis-like job on the blood. Quite in contrast to their perceived perception as mild. Since then, we've worked on various aspects of the venom including revealing that Atheris squamiger at least is very neurotoxic (we haven't tested the others species for neurotoxicity effects yet).

Cheers
Bryan

I would like to think these were road kill but I dont think so.
The reason I hate venomoiders is not just that they take the gland out but that its butchery to the snake.
In this case they were killed first [hopefully] then hacked apart?
But the flow of blood suggests the snake was living.
so the question for you M8 Is- Does this practice ruin the hobby for you?
And can you put a number on how many life forms you have terminated in the name of SCIENCE!
I respect you brother but This is dark science Hanable lecture
would be prowd!
talk to me
bud

Hi Bud

We removed the glands under surgical anesthetia and we are now cloning the venom gland DNA in order to get the sequences of the toxins being produced. These libraries can be replicated virtually indefinately so we have all the material we will ever need from these species. We certainly don't like euthanising animals but sometimes its a necessary evil. We now don't even have to milk further snakes since we can express the toxin sequences we are interested in (or synthetically construct the smaller molecules).

Take care mate
B

Bryan,
guess its got to be done.
Those glands are massive.
later
bud

If there is any doubt that those have potential to be dangerous, then there are alot of blind people out there! If you take a good look at the size of those glands,then you read the paper as to what kind of toxins are contained in those glands, then read some of the common affects of those types of toxins, there is no possible way to dispute that there is a "POSSIBILITY" of harmful reactions in a human. For all the flamers, notice I said "Possibility" of a harmful reaction.
LOL
Kevin

I aquired a snake ID'ed as Thrasops jacksoni. It is 4' long and has a dull green color and faded black bars. The head appears more elongated. Have found no information on the other ssp. of Thrasops and I see you are near/or in their range Do you know of any photo refrences, particularly of aethiopissa? Thanks, Frank

Hi ..

Thrasops jacksonii and Rhamnophis (Thrasops) aethiopissa have back fangs. In Rhamnophis (Thrasops) aethiopissa these are fairly long (5 mm or more) and altough they are considered non venomous or even are said not to produce any venom, I would be carefull with the aethiopissa. Now this is something the guys in Australia should look at.
I have been bitten by aethiopissa but then didnt let them chew on me.
Jacksonii I would consider 100% safe and non venomous. And they virtually NEVER bite.

Here are pictures of the two.. just got my first batch of baby aethiopissa, had to open the eggs as the shells were very hard despite very high humidity.

enjoy...

and last word on Psammophis.. I was bitten at LEAST 20 times of which 10 certainly were full bites with chewing. My collectors added up together over the last 8 years got at least 70 - 80 bites... Not due to carelessness but just cause we know they are not dangerous and catch them by hand... including Psammophis sibilians (which I guess is now mosambicus ?? not 100% sure on that) and nothing ever happened. So no matter what the lab tests say in theory.. in praxis the bites were not dangerous, these all were wild and fit animals so they certainly gave a a full venom yield.

Thomas Price

here is one more of my aethiopissa.. its fairly blurry but otherwise a good picture.

Thomas Price

Thanks for the photos. Couldn't download the first set, but the second one came thru well (Beautiful...but boy they are similiar to D...). Since practically every online source I could find was not in English, confirming the other genus (Rhamnophis)allowed me to access the right photos in my library. I'm pretty certain what I have is a T. jacksoni(ssp?). It is (I'm Presuming) late in losing it's juv pattern (4'male). It's more of a smokey olive overlaid with black and the head is much closer toT.j. though even more robust. At least now I can key it.
Thanks again for the aid.....Frank

Hey did you buy it in Fort Myers, FL ? I brought one there exactly suiting your description about 1 week before the Daytona expo. If it is mine then it will eat out of your hand (at least it did with me) without striking.. it just comes up to the (prekilled) mouse and pulls it out of your hand and chews it down. Beautifull snakes and as I mentioned I personaly am 100% convinced that jacksoni has no venom at all (all literature I have read says the same).

I would still not try it with aethiopissa altough literature states that they also are non venomous.

Thomas Price

It took me weeks to be sure that they are not Dispholidus.
They look exactly like them appart from the difference in scalation and in feeding habits which are totally different as they will only feed on treefrogs. No chameleons and no geckos nor mice unlike Dispholidus. And they only follow pray by sight. They will not even take dead treefrogs off the foreceps. They need to follow the movement of a jumping frog. So if you got no frogs live frogs.. dont get any...
They are very good hunters and it really is fun watching them dart after the sudden jump of a frog. Juveniles presumably eat crickets.. am just trying that out this week with my first batch of cb´s

Thomas Price

This was one of four that showed up at Glades Herps...A friend of mine picked it up. It is a male (minus the tail tip). He is quite tame And alert) and ate right off striking the fuzzies as soon as they hit the bottom of the cage....Frank

Yes That is the one I am talking about.

Enjoy him. I had him in Europe for 3 months and he is a real good animal.

Make sure the cage is large enough and has allot of plants so he can hide. Otherwise he will be rubbing his nose on the glass all the time trying to get out.

Best regards

Thomas

He got the Penthouse suite! Seriously though, I set him up like a large Oxybelis and he is allready feeding like a champ. Thanks.
Frank