Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is there any boa I could cross with my argentine rainbow that would give it more color.

Crossing it with another boa may very well give you brighter colors but would produce babies that might have little value as most folks don't want crosses. Could even be hard to give them away????

If you want more color than get a high end BRB or other species known for bright colors.

Just my opinion!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I tend to agree with Dave on this one. I'd keep the Argentinians for their colors/appearance and I'd keep the BRB or PRB for theirs. I have considered the ARG's as a future project myself because they are closer to what I would expect/want from an adult anery RB then the adult anery BRB's are.

That being said I am not totally against crosses in general but I don't see an advantage to it here. The patterns are pretty similar and both ARB and BRB hold pattern as adults so keep one for one color range and the second for the other color range.

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

With all due respect to Dave and Sean, I think it's jumping the gun to assume what a "cross" would look like. While my guess would be the same as theirs, you never know until someone actually tries it. The pigmentation of these snakes is not
well understood.

Also, I think there could be some value in making a smaller AND more colorful rainbow boa. Personally, I'm not that big of a fan of subspecies classifications anyway, so the cross thing wouldn't be a factor for me.

Again, it's hard to say what would add more color, since I don't
know if anyone has tried such a "cross." Personally, I'd try a Brazilian or Peruvian.

Thanks and good luck,
Ed

>>Is there any boa I could cross with my argentine rainbow that would give it more color.

it may add more color to the ARB but would just take color from the other and not produce a nicer colored snake you had to use to add the color in the first place.

>>With all due respect to Dave and Sean, I think it's jumping the gun to assume what a "cross" would look like. While my guess would be the same as theirs, you never know until someone actually tries it. The pigmentation of these snakes is not
>>well understood.
>>
>>Also, I think there could be some value in making a smaller AND more colorful rainbow boa. Personally, I'm not that big of a fan of subspecies classifications anyway, so the cross thing wouldn't be a factor for me.
>>
>>Again, it's hard to say what would add more color, since I don't
>>know if anyone has tried such a "cross." Personally, I'd try a Brazilian or Peruvian.
>>
>>Thanks and good luck,
>>Ed
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Is there any boa I could cross with my argentine rainbow that would give it more color.
>>
>>
-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

Like I said, I believe it's all speculation until someone actually does it. For all we know it might produce some nice pinkish snakes with white crescents and orange dorsal patterns. Who knows?

Thanks,
Ed

>>it may add more color to the ARB but would just take color from the other and not produce a nicer colored snake you had to use to add the color in the first place.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>With all due respect to Dave and Sean, I think it's jumping the gun to assume what a "cross" would look like. While my guess would be the same as theirs, you never know until someone actually tries it. The pigmentation of these snakes is not
>>>>well understood.
>>>>
>>>>Also, I think there could be some value in making a smaller AND more colorful rainbow boa. Personally, I'm not that big of a fan of subspecies classifications anyway, so the cross thing wouldn't be a factor for me.
>>>>
>>>>Again, it's hard to say what would add more color, since I don't
>>>>know if anyone has tried such a "cross." Personally, I'd try a Brazilian or Peruvian.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks and good luck,
>>>>Ed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Is there any boa I could cross with my argentine rainbow that would give it more color.
>>>>
>>>>
>>-----
>>=========================================================
>> Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
>>=========================================================
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Frank Roberts
>>
>>
>>
>>I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

not that I could think of.

He or she would still be the same color regardless of what you breed it to. (sorry joking)

ahh the babies. not really sure.

It would IMO make a less bright boa when compared to either specie. Like mudding up the colors of either snake...like mixing paint together kind of scenario.

Like take carpondros for instance, those things change into some darkly colored snakes due to the color mixing and also the ontogenetic color change.

I am not anti hybrid type I just do not see the colors improving from either parent adding their own colors to the mixture.
-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

You're asking a good question and it's innocent enough. My advice is to stay away from crosses and hybrids. Not because I'm morally against it. But look at the herp community as a whole. How many thousands od reptile breeders are there in the US? Of these thousands of people, very very very few are working with hybrids. I think this is because most of us (right or wrong) frown on the practice.

If you start producing hybrids, you're hurting two fronts. first, you're establishing your reputation as a hybrid breeder. Many people will shy away from your business for this reason alone. Second, you may find it very difficult to place your animals into caring homes.

I agree with dave and Sean. if you want a snake with more color, purchase one. There are plenty of beautiful animals out there. Good luck with your decision
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Mike,

I'm not criticizing, I just don't really understand the logic behind what seems to be a common position among snake breeders. Maybe someone can explain, cause I must be missing something.

What I don't understand is why on the one hand it's not only acceptable, but desirable, to genetically engineer a snake to take on a completely different look than when it's in its natural state (ie, morphs), yet at the same time it's taboo to breed snakes that, *by definition*, can and do "interbreed" in the wild. And taxonomic classifications (specifically the sub-species classification in this discussion) are just a man-made construct, they can and do change also.

The other question I have is don't GTP's breeders commonly cross different locales? Is that really any different than a Peruvian x Brazilian RB "cross?" What happens if some scientists create two new subspecies of M. viridis based on geography and/or some slight color/morphological difference, will all these $3000 snakes become worthless?

Again, just trying to understand....

Thanks,
Ed

>>You're asking a good question and it's innocent enough. My advice is to stay away from crosses and hybrids. Not because I'm morally against it. But look at the herp community as a whole. How many thousands od reptile breeders are there in the US? Of these thousands of people, very very very few are working with hybrids. I think this is because most of us (right or wrong) frown on the practice.
>>
>>If you start producing hybrids, you're hurting two fronts. first, you're establishing your reputation as a hybrid breeder. Many people will shy away from your business for this reason alone. Second, you may find it very difficult to place your animals into caring homes.
>>
>>I agree with dave and Sean. if you want a snake with more color, purchase one. There are plenty of beautiful animals out there. Good luck with your decision
>>-----
>>Mike Lockwood
>>www.tooscaley.com

The biggest single reason is fear of having another species genes get into your breeding colony gene pool. This would potentially introduce phenotypes and genetic traits not found in the species normally and have a chaotic effect on the results of pairings.

People do not care as much about subspecies crosses but look negatively on it by association. While some hybridizers only cross subspecies the vast majority of hybrids out there are crossing completely different species and some are even trying to do things like break the live birth vs egg laying barrier. Because the species crosses are looked down on so strongly many do not want to risk dealing with someone who will break the subspecies barrier on the chance they may also jump the species one as well.

The main difference you were sking about is that in morph design we work within the range of genes in the subspecies. We try to choose which ones get expressed through things like line breeding for increased color but it is still working only with the genes from the subspecies. Crossing in a different subpecies adds in another gene pool, although a closely related one, into the mix. Essentially most people do make the clear distinction between subspecies vs locality. Sub species may be semiarbitrary but it is determined by specific testable criteria. Locality is not something that can be tested. The only garuntee of locality you have is the word/documentation of the importer/breeder.

Locality is a subset of the subspecies gene pool so nothing that occurrs in the locality is outside the range of the subspecies. In some subspecies like BCI and BCC redtail boas crossing locals is common and they simply lose the locality status and are listed as BCI or BCC instead of local specific names. That being said BCIxBCC is still a hybrid and looked down on by many. The main reason you see BCIxBCC is that BCC most people think are the best looking,but very similar rough appearance, but all the existing morph genes are in the BCI.

Hope helped clear up a little of it for you.

Sean
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Ed,

I can't explain people's aversion to hybrids and I won't even try to defend it. You all know I'm knee deep in morphs and GTP locale crosses myself. I've taken my share of criticism for working with these guys.

I've participated in countless discussions where folks have both defended and argued against the production of hybrids. Honestly, most of the arguments for both sides hold water for me.

In my own opinion, the moment a breeder decides to cross two animals (within the species or otherwise) with the intent of producing nice looking babies he or she has taken the nature out of natural selection. So I've stopped arguing one way or the other.

The bottom line for me has become, "can I move the animals I produce into good homes?". If I feel that the answer is yes, I will consider the pairing.

In this case, based on what I've seen, I'd say Ryan will have a hard time placing the animals. That's really the only reason I'm advising against it.
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Bottom line statement "can I move the animals I produce into good homes?"

IMO that says it all!!!!! That along with ease of moving the animals. If you're spending extra time to move an animal that ends up with little or no profit (even a loss?) how long can you support that hobby?
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Ryan,
....You can be totally honest representing any crosses you produce but the people who eventually get them WILL misrepresent them at some point in the future. Crossing subspecies is also a lot harder than your question implies. Some of the subspecies are very different from one another. It is tough enough getting babies out of Rainbow Boas breeding them within their own subspecies. The subspecies that are most like the alvarezi and so are more liekly to be crossable are mostly lacking in bright colors. Crossing alvarezi to the much larger and very different Brazilians or other brightly colored large subspecies may be extremely difficult or impossible.
Jeff

>>Is there any boa I could cross with my argentine rainbow that would give it more color.

Who thinks less of those breeders that say for instance cross different localities of BCI. I for instance have a pure sonoran leopard, but sonoran only has 3 morphs known so far, the leopard, the hypo and the anery. I have a hypo, with plans to breed, but the only person that actively breeds pure sonoran aneries is warren booth, and he very rarely lets one go... so that's out. On the other hand, you have all these beautiful albinos and aneries and such available that would make some stellar leopard crosses, but you have to breed a sonoran BCI to a Columbian BCI. I am just curious about different opinions, I have mine, but for now, I will refrain