Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It has been a few years i bred these t negs back to T negs. i have been using the females to breed to Peanut butters (makes jellies) and to a Ghost male (to make triple hets).

this year i used the T neg females to make Jellies again by breeding the Peanut butters to them. The last few years i have not been producing more jelly brooks because i wanted to keep the ones I had to breed into other morphs. But this year i decided to make some and let them go to folks that want to integrate the jelly brooks to other strains of brooksi.

I also tried a jelly to T negative to see if anything comes out different from that pairing.

I have not bred the jelly to a lavender or a whitesided. The sky is still the limit with anyone breeding brooksi to create the newest morph.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

If you breed:

Jelly x normal= 50% of the clutch will be het PB, 50% of the clutch will be het Amel T-

Jelly x PB = PB's and jellies

(Jelly x Het PB = PB, Jelly, and 50% of the hets will be het PB the other 50% will be het T- amel)

Jelly x Amel T- = Amel T-'s and jellies

(Jelly x amel T- = Amel T-, Jelly, and 50% of the hets will be het PB the other 50% will be het T- amel)

Jelly x jelly = PB, T-, and Jellies

*** Jelly x another unrelated recessive (Lavender, axanthic, hypo, ws, etc...)= 100% of the clutch will be het for the unrelated recessive with 50% of those being het for PB and the other 50% being het for T- ***

just remember Jelly = PB AND T- (same genes expressed in very different ways), so when you breed the two (PB and T-) you create an intermediate btwn PB and T- that is independent in the appearance but share some similarities with both forms of the parent mutations (i.e. a Jelly)

Additionally when breeding a jelly to create hets there is no way to know 100% which hets are carriers of which form of the parent mutations (T- or PB) BUT the beauty is it really doesn't matter because either way you're (the buyer) is getting mutations out of that clutch!

if they score a pair of PB's hets they get PB's (PB hets have a "look" to them so you maybe able to identify/speculate which are het PB)

If they score a pair of T- hets they get T-'s

if they score a PB & T- het pair they get jellies!

it's win win!

~ZF

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**Floridana Morphs: Resource Site**

Posted by: ZFelicien at Thu Jun 26 11:34:05 2008 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

~ZF

Zenny,
I don'y know if you are right on all of this. None of it has been proven yet. This year will be different and we will find out about some of the pairings.

About the only Jelly x PB I did was from a Jelly to a HET PB x Whitesided. And you know what I got. I got a jelly, a PB, two normals, A WHITESIDED and a Pewter.

Otherwise I have not done any of these matches yet to prove anything out yet. I don't know if your theories are correct. They may be. But for now I have eggs due to hatch from Sevral different pairs including Jelly to jelly, PB to jelly., T neg to jelly.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

I would think a jelly x jelly would give you just jellies? or super jellies (maybe like jam?).I don't understand how you would breed a pair of jellies together and not get any jellies??Thats just weird.

L8r
goober.

If it is really a case of two different alleles on the same locus - jelly x jelly should give you (on average) 25% PB, 25% T-, 50% jelly.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

that Jelly x Jelly is going to end up giving you 25% homozygous form of both PB and T-.

Remember a Jelly really is HET for both PB and T-

In that case I would think you SHOULD be looking at 25% PB, 25% T-, 25% homozygous form of both and 25% normals ??

Rainer would know best but until we see these clutches this year no one really knows for sure.

Its interesting as hell thats for sure ...

No normals if PB and T- really are allelic to produce Jelly, since there can't be a WT allele at that locus (in a Jelly to Jelly cross)
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Genetics, as I read it, should give you
25% PB
25% t-
25% "super jelly"/new name/dble homo
25% jelly
Now I am going to go out on a limb here to say that there IS going to be ALOT of confusion because of the like genes and the sexual dimorphism. Rainer, as good as he keeps records, is going to be flusted for at least another generation on these guys,lol.

Jelly IS a morph so you won't see Normal carriers when you breed jelly x jelly

PB and T- can not exist simultaneously as Het within a single animal because they are genetically the same mutation.

if you start thinking about the Jelly mutation as a single morph it would be easier. (albino for example)

when you breed an albino(XX) to a normal(YY) essentially you get 100% het for albino (XY), but imagine if there were two mutations that came together to make up the albino gene(Xx) when you breed albino to normal you'll have some carriers represented as XY and others as xY this is essentially what the "Jelly" is! It's not a 2x mutation it's a single (but complex) mutation that is composed of two visually different but genetically identical mutations!

hope I didn't make it more complicated with the X's and the Y's

Additionally:

PBs and Jellies are very similar BUT they do look different as hatchlings... if you familiarize yourself with what a PB looks like (both male and female) then getting PB and Jellies in the same clutch won't be difficult to differentiate.

~ZF
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**Floridana Morphs: Resource Site**

I wonder if PB is the same gene as Ultra in Corns.
Not suggesting pollution from one species into the other, just wondering if the common ancestor had the PB gene in its gene pool, and both splits got it.

There's been some speculation that Ultra in Corns is actually from a rat snake, but I don't know. Anyway - Ultra in Corns is allelic w/ amel, and it can be difficult to distinguish an ultramel from homo ultra.

I have no idea about sexual dimorphism with ultra in corns though, I haven't heard of it, but the dimorphism may be a result of how something else interacts with it.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

The "two visually different but genetically identical mutations" is probably off target. They are probably different mutations that are derived from the same normal gene.

If we make a list of the genes that could be found at the albino mutant gene's location in the genome, we'd have
1. normal
2. peanut butter
3. albino

Then we make all the possible gene pairs from those three choices. (// stands for a pair of chromosomes. One gene is in one chromosome, and the second gene in the pair is in the other chromosome.)
normal//normal = normal
normal//albino = normal looking, heterozygous albino
normal//peanut butter = normal looking(???), heterozygous peanut butter
peanut butter//peanut butter = peanut butter
peanut butter//albino = jelly
albino//albino = albino

Jelly is the heterozygous form that has a gene pair made up of a peanut butter mutant gene and an albino mutant gene.

A het does not have to look normal.

Paul Hollander

Paul thats good eval.but PB shows both Recessive and Codom tentencies,i did produce PBs from non visual het PBs but PBs can appear from first Gen. breedings %##%Rod Sirling)&*^& are we entering the TWilight ZONE >>AHhhhh Cool Chris btw time for beer #2....L8r Again

In other words, we need more breeding tests.

Paul Hollander

Posted by: Paul Hollander at Fri Jun 27 11:04:14 2008 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Paul Hollander

Can you translate what all this means compared to Zennys list? Are you agreeing with Zennys list that he proposed? Or are there differences?
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

It looks like he wrote out the combos to help himself. The one important thing being his last statement that a het can show a morph. I think time will tell with all of these....and it would be important to know if the PB and albino genes really do get lost when crossed. But I dont know how a clutch would look with pb/jelly/albino/and-or a super form morph. Do you know what happens with the ultramel gene? Can you reproduce albinos backwards from that cross? Jeff

I wrote out my list to help get the genes in Zenny's breedings straight in my mind and in others' minds if those predictions are correct. Breeding tests are required to see whether actual results match the breeding predictions.

There is no ultramel gene in corn snakes. Ultramel is the appearance of a corn snake with an ultra mutant gene paired with an amelanistic mutant gene.

ultramel (ultra//amelanistic) x ultramel (ultra//amelanistic)-->
1/4 ultra (ultra//ultra)
2/4 ultramel (ultra//amelanistic)
1/4 amelanistic (amelanistic//amelanistic)
Though it is sometimes hard to tell the difference between a light ultra and a dark ultramel.

This is similar to the Jelly x jelly = PB, T-, and Jellies prediction that Zenny made.

Hets look normal ONLY IF one of the genes in the gene pair is the normal gene AND the other gene in the pair is recessive to the normal gene. This is the most common arrangement, not the only arrangement.

Paul Hollander

ultramel (ultra//amelanistic) x ultramel (ultra//amelanistic)-->
1/4 ultra (ultra//ultra)
2/4 ultramel (ultra//amelanistic)
1/4 amelanistic (amelanistic//amelanistic)
Though it is sometimes hard to tell the difference between a light ultra and a dark ultramel

You Cant get ultra from UA x UA(UltrAmel)because they are both homo for amel
you can get them from outcrossing to normal and create poss hets or get a actual ultra(hopefully not het for Amel)
Just a friendly responce,and hope i read your post right..Chris

>You can't get ultra from UA x UA(UltrAmel)because they are both homo for amel

Genes come in pairs. When doing a mating, we have to pay attention to both genes in the pair. Using words like "het" adds a layer of abstraction to the actual genes. I try to be as clear as possible, which to me requires actually specifying the genes' identity.

Homozygous amels are amelanistic//amelanistic. Ultramels are ultra//amelanistic. In other words, ultramels are not homozygous amelanistic.

A het amelanistic corn snake has a gene pair made up of a normal gene and an amelanistic mutant gene (normal//amelanistic). A mating of two het amelanistics is like so:

normal//amelanistic X normal//amelanistic -->
1/4 normal//normal
1/2 normal//amelanistic
1/4 amelanistic//amelanistic.

An ultramel is ultra//amelanistic. A mating of two ultramels is like so:

ultra//amelanistic X ultra//amelanistic -->
1/4 ultra//ultra
1/2 ultra//amelanistic
1/4 amelanistic//amelanistic.

The only difference between the two matings is that every instance of "normal" in the first mating became "ultra" in the second mating.

Usually we are aware of only two different versions of a gene -- normal and mutant. In this case, there are three forms -- normal, amelanistic (mutant #1), and ultra (mutant #2). Going from two versions of a gene to three versions takes some work to understand.

Paul Hollander

May be wrong but UAs are homo Amel and to my belief you will still(no Pun Will)only acheive UAs and no Ultras until you lose the amel characteristic "new word for me LOL" Paul like i said b4 i want to be logical and friendly here and i will remain so i am just someone who grew up with the punit square I.or "101" So maybe you can cancel the amel gene with ultra PB or what ever....the what ever being the Ultra or PB gene into the simple recessive traits with out encoutering some really neat anomolies which have already been proven by the Brooks Expo coordinator..then again i may be totally wrong but heck lets Play

Punnett square for ultramel (ultra//amelanistic) X ultramel (ultra//amelanistic)

..................| ...ultra................ | amelanistic
-------------------------------------------------------------
............ultra | ultra//ultra...... | ultra//amelanistic
-------------------------------------------------------------
amelanistic | ultra//amelanistic | amelanistic//amelanistic
-------------------------------------------------------------

1/4 ultra//ultra
2/4 ultra//amelanistic
1/4 amelanistic//amelanistic

Ignore the dots. They are just to get the columns to line up.

Paul Hollander

Cool i give,but reluctant where did the ressecive amel gene go since it was intod by both parents,thats why ultras are hard to find,
This is a college coarse "could be"since i didnt go.but i can capt you through the bahamas and the Carib..Peace Life is short make the best of it!!

Usually we are aware of only two different versions of a gene -- normal and mutant. In this case, there are three forms -- normal, amelanistic (mutant #1), and ultra (mutant #2). Going from two versions of a gene to three versions takes some work to understand.

"K" lets see what multiple genes on the same LOCUS (sound like a french or Italian sports car)LOL "Dang i shoulda stayed in school"Longer"...Peace friends ..C

Paul, glad to see I am not the only one who has to write it all out,lol. I am kicking myself I didnt get these jellies when Rainer offered em years ago....but it would also be important to me to be able to get the t- and PB gene back out of em. And just when I was going to have to look up the ultramel thing, you came through with it! Thanks!!Jeff

thank you for providing us with morphs, and what wonderful morphs they are!!!

Now quit holding out on us and show us some yearling pics on the pewter, goldens and all the rest..

thanks,

daveb

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in the light, you will find the road...

LOL Dave,
I will I will. But I need a camera right now that does not wash out yellows and reds. The current one I am using does this and i am waiting for another camera i bought off ebay to take decent pics.

Oh and by the way. They are SPECTACULAR.

... and the Golden PB holds its red coloration.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

We might have to form a boycott if this keeps up,lol.

Jelly male on newspaper looks SNOW and Jelly female in hand looks PB

a little Jelly male and he looks PB as well. Almost identical to your female in hand pic ... they obviously display phenotypes varing between the two genes ..

Dang i wish i would pick up big 06 -07s Just to save on pinkiesLOL.Oh Yeah and those Lil' Escapees big snakes show up better in my poor vision, good score.The phenotype is not yet here ie jelly i mean proven sorry but the babies are variable and THINK they are recessive x Co-dom or "Some other Gene"Neat Stuff for the bored and the interested.
Kinda like:
Pastel X Recessive = some pastel though ALL are het recessive
"K" its time for a Beer! L8r My Friends ..Chris