Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here are picts of the anery motley clutch and her laying, the last one out #11 looks dark, is this one bad? Man, she shredded the newspaper the last couple days, I guess I should have know something was brewing, I guess I will know what that means next time.
She was bred to a het amel,carmel,stripe. So I believe the babies will be 100% het for motley and anery, and 50% het for amelanistic,carmel and stripe, I guess you could call them possible penta hets, please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks for any input or advise.
Jeff

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Jeff Benfer
You'll get your regius's to the wall, man!
1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.1 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

you should get 1/2 normals het anery, 50% amel, caramel
and then 1/2 motleys with possibly some stripe influence het anery, 50% amel, Caramel.

~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, A pair of Ball Pythons, A Bearded dragon, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping turtle, and a white cheeked mud turtle

you should get 1/2 normals het anery, 50% amel, caramel
and then 1/2 motleys with possibly some stripe influence het anery, 50% amel, Caramel

Won't the phenotypical normals het anery's also be 50% possible het stripe?
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Jeff Benfer
My lady, she's got big regius's
You'll get your regius's to the wall, man!
1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

Wait a minute, won't it actually be phenotypically 50% are motley striped 100% het anery and 50% possible het amel,carmel. With the half of the offspring phenotypically normals but 100%het motley and anery, and 50% het amel and carmel.
Jeff
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Jeff Benfer
My lady, she's got big regius's
You'll get your regius's to the wall, man!
1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

thats what i said. Het Anery is the same as 100% het anery. 50% is the same as 50% poss het. and motley would probably overcome the stripe so they will be het motley.
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, A pair of Ball Pythons, A Bearded dragon, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping turtle, and a white cheeked mud turtle

yeah but you didn't list the normal looking ones as being het for motley did you, wouldn't they be het for motley as well?
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Jeff Benfer
My lady, she's got big regius's
You'll get your regius's to the wall, man!
1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

YEAH they'd be het for motley. If i didnt say that, i meant it. i apologize. i have alot going on right now and trying to answer questions... and writing down hatchling info. birthdates, parents, shed and feeding dates... heh... never 100% here... my mind is usually thinking about something else

~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, A pair of Ball Pythons, A Bearded dragon, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping turtle, and a white cheeked mud turtle

Sorry Kin, didn't mean to stress you out, i just wanted to clarify that.
And to the above post that says stripe is dominant to motley, I thought that if you have one copy of motley and one copy of stripe the result is something in between? thats what we would have here, half the babies would have one copy motley no copies stripe, and the other half of the babies would have one copy motley and one copy stripe.
So the first half of babies would be normal pattern het motley
and the second half would result in something in between striped and motley.
And then all would be het for anery and possible het for carmel, and amel.
Right or is there something I am still missing here?
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Jeff Benfer
My lady, she's got big regius's
You'll get your regius's to the wall, man!
1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

It seems that stripe is in fact recessive to motley, it's just that motley (with or without the stripe gene) can have partial striping.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

OK, now I am really confused because Wisema stated "Stripe is dominant to motley" and now Funk you are stating "Stripe is recessive to motley".
Yet I believe my cornsnake morph book at home says that they are both recessive genes to wild type and both require two copies to be expressed, but yet that one copy of each creates somthing in between because both allels are at the same loci and neither have dominance to each other.
Who's right? Will they look more like stripe with some motley influence, or will they look more like motley with stripe influence, or will they just be randomly something in between.
Is there no concensus, or is this still debated, or are observed results variable?
Thanks for your input
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Jeff Benfer
My lady, she's got big regius's
You'll get your regius's to the wall, man!
1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

OK here is what happened to me this year:

i bred a female "Gracie Lou" She is Hypo het stripe, Amel, Anery
to a male "Henry VIII" He is normal Het Motley, Amel and a few other things
I got classics, motleys, Amels, Amel Motleys, Hypos and Hypo Motleys.
All of the motley babies had a striped tail. (which is probably the stripe influence)

Another breeding i did:

Persia she is Anery het motley and amel
she was bred to Henry VIII Same male from above Classic het Amel, motley, etc
I got classics, Amel Motleys, and motleys

~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, A pair of Ball Pythons, A Bearded dragon, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping turtle, and a white cheeked mud turtle

To me those observations reinforce the theory that motley is mostly but not completely dominant over striped and that one copy motley and one copy stripe, genotype m^m m^s = phenotype predominately motley with a bit of influence towards the stripe.
Seeing all the variation among the different motley individual snakes, I would guess that it is not a simple on/off gene like amel or anery but is a more complex set of genes, but the above would be a good simplified model to predict the general inheritance outcomes for the offspring. Well, should make for about half the babies being some nice looking motleys anyway. The babies won't be worth a hill of beans though, unless you feel lucky about flipping several coins in a row, or if you want to buy a pair of cheap snakes potientially full of lots of fun surprises or.... dissapointments. I really was set on breeding the triple hets, but since I had that female anery motley anyway just because I liked her looks, so I figured what the heck I will put the male in with her and see what happens, 2 months later whalla!!! But hey the whole process has been super fun so far anyway, it was great to watch eggs being laid for the first time.
Thanks for the help,
I wouldn't want to sell or even give away a snake to someone without knowing exactly what they are potientially getting, good or bad, I don't want to misrepresent. The triple hets were from a friend with a PHD in Genetics, he created them by crossing a butter to a stripe, so I am 100% sure of their genetics.
Thanks again Kin for the help, I had totally forgot the motley stripe phenotype, I am so very thankful you caught that.
Jeff
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Jeff Benfer
My lady, she's got big regius's
You'll get your regius's to the wall, man!
1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

I thought it would be easier to tell you what i got rather than the whole "science of it". Now, it isnt 100% certain yet if the motleys i have are or possibly could be het stripe, but i will tell you this.. in a few years i tend to find out
i like finding stuff out myself
For example:
It is said that zig zag is not a gene and cant be passed down to hatchlings. well, i bred a hypo het caramel partial zig zag to the same and got a baby this year who is about 70-75% zig zag. Most of the babies didnt have any zigs or zags, but some had a zig here and some had a zag. I plan on breeding the baby back to its mother and seeing what i get BTW you can see the pic of the zig zag under "My wow hatchling" or something to that extent.

~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, A pair of Ball Pythons, A Bearded dragon, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping turtle, and a white cheeked mud turtle

Kin
Yeah, I have a pretty good background in genetics. In reality genetic inheritance is very seldom as simple as the simplified Mendelian models that we try to lump everything into in the snake world, but they are generally good models as a starting point to make predictions, but as you said, the "real" proof is always in the observed results of your own experiments.
Thanks again for your help, I will be sure to let you know what the actual results are if and when the eggs hatch.
Jeff
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Jeff Benfer
My lady, she's got big regius's
You'll get your regius's to the wall, man!
1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

They've done some breeding tests - both are recessive to wild type, stripe is recessive to motley, what they use to think was "stripe - motley" is actually just one of the effects motley can have even without the stripe gene.

From 2008 CMG:

The stripe allele appears to be recessive to motley allele. ... It was previously considered codominant with motley and intermediate phenotypes were expected, but that theory has been proven false.

pg 87

The intermediate forms seem to be result of other influences, and happens even with homo motley.

So - motley and stripe have motley phenotype, and thus is now being called "motley het stripe"
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Very good info, thank you. That is where it starts, but could it also be that some of the motley that are not "het" stripe, actually in fact have some of the genetics at a molecular level that make a stripe a stripe. Unless it is a single base pair change on a single allele, things can get very "fuzzy". And even saying and demonstrating that motley is dominant over stripe and that they are both alleles effecting the same loci, it may not be 100% dominance it may be 97.3% ect.ect. Also what "so and so's" stripe motleys exibit in their collection, when compared to "so and so's" motley stripes, they may be so overal genetially unrelated due to their diverging "ancestry" or "parental lines", that they have slighty differing observed results.
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Jeff Benfer
My lady, she's got big regius's
You'll get your regius's to the wall, man!
1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

Stripe is dominant to motley.

>>Stripe is dominant to motley.

I always thought motley was dominant.
breed a stripe and a motley together you get motleys.
even breed a stripe to a het motley and you either get normals or motleys.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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