Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I saw a youtube video I think it was ralph davis and he had the room heated to 88 or 89 and all probes outside the egg box. Mine is inside and im looking at 4 moldy dead eggs. The last 1 just went moldy over nite. They were due to hatch july 20th. Just wanted to get it rite before my other girls drop anyday now.
Thank you.

Im using no subsrate method and no water has touched the eggs. The temp is between 88 and 89 inside the box were the probe is at. Maybe I should just heat the incubator itself to 89 and not worry about the temp inside the plastic container?

I thought it was normal for eggs to mold a little...are the eggs colapsed?...did you candle them?...if there are no veins they may not have been fertile to begin with...we had one egg in our clutch that was just as pretty as the others but it colapsed and changed colors within a few days...it wasn't fertile..had no veins

no...definitely no "normal" for eggs to mold at all. Living eggs have their own immune system of sorts and very rarely will they have any mold at all. Dead eggs mold and turn all sorts of technicolr rainbow. Now, a dead moldy egg, even if attached to a good egg, will very rarely cause any problems for the living egg...

In a small set up like yours, you SHOULD have the probe in the box (especially if you only have one clutch going. Both the probe from the T-stat and a second temperature sensor should be in the egg box. Please tell us some more about you set-up (every little detail). In my experience, the no-sub method is GEICO easy and foolproof. If the eggs were fertile and viable, we'll have to figure out where you went wrong.

I agree. I have a smaller homemade incubator and I put the T-Stat probe laying on top of an egg in the center of the clutch, or poked through the tupperware eggbox and stuck at top egg level if the eggs are all piled up and stuck together. I put a second thermometer at the base of the eggs and maintain the top thermometer at 88.5- 90 degrees and the base of the eggs should be about 88 - 88.5.

This has worked for me perfectly along with the no substrate method.

Are you sure you didnt roll the eggs by mistake? Maybe the temps spiked? Do you maintain and check a min / max reading?

It dont sound good to be honest with you...

Tough luck on the eggs. It is hard to know what happened with this clutch, but I would offer the following comments.
Any temp between 86 and 90 is acceptable and fluctiations within that range are generally not a problem. The farther you get outside of that range (and the earlier in the cycle) the more likely you are to have problems. Eggs will generally tolerate cooler temps better than excessively higher temps - especially for extended periods of time, but having said that I have heard that some of the "farms" incubate eggs at at temps up to around 92 degrees). I do not put the thermostat probe or temp monitoring probe inside my egg boxes and incubate at an inside the incubator temperature 89 degrees. During the last couple of weeks eggs actually give off heat as a by product of "respiration" and temps inside the egg box will be a degree or two higher that outside. This is why you start seeing some condensate on the inside walls of an uninsulated egg box starting at this time. For this reason putting the thermostat probe inside a single egg box in an incubator holding several clutches at varying stages of incubation can result in unintended temperature fluctuations for the other clutches.
One further comment. You mentioned that you were using the no substrate method. Nothing wrong with this method, I have tried it and have used it successfuly - although I have gone back to a traditiona substrate method. When using this method there are a couple of things you need to be mindful of. First you need to make sure that the eggs are not resting against the wall of the egg box. Otherwise if condensation does occur it will run down on the egg and potentially drown it. Also, you do need to make sure that the eggs cannot inadvertently "roll around". If an egg happens to roll 180 degrees in the course of moving or checking the eggs after incubation has begun, it will most often cause the egg to die. I am not sure any of these comments have relevance to your particular situation, but I thought they may possibly be helpful. Good luck!
Grant

I follow procedures pretty close to Grant stated. I place probe in the middle of the incubator(hanging) and incubatate at 88.5-89. I use the substrateless method and as Grant said, you do have to center the eggs away from the wall to avoid side condensation from hitting them. The rolling of eggs is an issue the first 2-3 weeks of incubation. They will settle/flatten on bottom after that period. Therefore, be carful moving boxes and ALWAYS check for rolling afterwards if you do move them.

Also, I have found you don't need much water with this method. You should lose NO water if you set it up correctly. I use a 50/50 mix of coarse vermiculite and perlite --about 1-1 1/2 inches -- and use just enough water to so you can see a thin layer across the bottom of box when looking at it from below and cover with PressNSeal. I take PressNSeal off 7-10 days before hatch date. Hope this and the oter info from this forum helps. There are many "cluches" of experience available for those of us that need help from time to time. Good luck!
-----
Bill Buchman

Thanks Grant and Bill. I found those last two posts really helpful.

"During the last couple of weeks eggs actually give off heat as a by product of "respiration" and temps inside the egg box will be a degree or two higher that outside.

So does this mean that if your egg box is slightly higher than 90 degrees during the last couple of weeks it should not matter?

Yes. Temps are higher a degree or two, but the eggs can handle a little higher temp the last 2 weeks. They can also get dripped on from condensation as well. I have condensation on the sides of my boxes after a couple of days of incubation using the subtrateless method. At about the 5 week mark I start to get droplets on top. These drops don't drip on the eggs. They just "hang there". We are talking as close to 100% humidity as you can get. Eggs are pretty darn tough after 45 days IMHO.

I don't open my egg container AT ALL until that 7-10 day 47-50 day mark when I take the PressNSeal off. I want my eggs to breathe at this and 100% humidiy is unnecessary at that late date.

I LOVE subtrateless. It is easy to set up eggs after they lay --no mixing!!! Easy before I head out for work!!! I have 20 clutches on the ground so far -- another 30 cooking with another 25 or more on the way( my breeding seasons will be merging somewhere around October 15th!!!!) and I can say that my incubation is something I don't worry about AT ALL. I have had only the expected issues (2 random severely kinked animals -- taking a nap in freezer...ZZZZZZ, 4 eggs gone bad and 2 die in the egg). I candle my eggs and I trash any egg that does not show ANY veins along with the slugs. This is why I have very few eggs go bad in the boxes I suspect -- I don't incubate "iffy" eggs. Probably more info than you wanted, but I remember the HIGH DEGREE OF ANGST that I had about hatching eggs. Good luck!!!

-----
Bill Buchman

i wise old monitor man with wrestler's ears once said...

30% of the work is in raising healthy stock
30% of the work is in breeding successfully
30% of the work is in incubation
10% of the work is in all the unpredictable variables and surprises

or something like that.

the point is, getting eggs is not the final hurdle. incubation can be tricky and includes a lot of subtle details. once you know how to do it, it seems simple enough. but getting there is not always easy. there are a lot of variables. substrates, container size, incubator size, heating elements, thermostats, moisture levels, egg box size, having good eggs in the first place, and on and on and on.

can you keep the probe outside the egg box? well, Ralph can. what is important is the temp INSIDE the laybox. Ralph's setup apparently allows him to measure temp in one spot, and establish a relative temp in another. i guarantee he knows what the temp of his egg box is, even if there is no probe. if you haven't incubated a lot of eggs, i would recommend keeping your probe INSIDE the egg box.

your eggs could be dead for any of 100 reasons. being non viable eggs in the first place comes to mind, and getting overly wet also comes to mind. you have dead eggs, that is too bad. the challenge is now to look at your overall incubation setup and find the negative variables.

pics would probably help with feedback.

best of luck.
-----
robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

... as Robyn stated. There are A LOT of little ways to make a BIG mistake -- and we all have made them along the way -- I have made mine!!! Do check your eggs in boxes for temps( I do so with a Pro Exotics temp gun -- an unsolicited recommendation!!!) to make sure you are within the range you want -- I do.
-----
Bill Buchman

Ok now I'm a little confused. How do you check the temps of the eggs in the egg box if you leave the press and seal on until the last 7-10 days of incubation?

that is one of the variables. do you use a sealed box, or a vented box?

we use a relatively large incubator, and the boxes are vented. we use large egg boxes, 2-3 ball clutches per box (in Ackie monitors, it may be 10 clutches per box). a larger egg box means more THERMAL MASS, meaning it is harder for small temp fluctuations, like opening the incubator door, to affect the actual temp of the box.

anyway, we take a look at the eggs frequently, and the boxes are vented, there is no "don't open the box until the week of hatch" rule with our setup.

again, setups are different, each one has a different variable. you have to learn your variables for your particular setup.
-----
robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

I see your confusion. I check temps during the first couple days after putting the boxes in the incubator -- then leave them be. My large incubator consistently runs a degree cooler in the bottom-half. I am fine with box temps from 87-90.5. You just don't want to be too hot for too long.

I must assert that this is my FIRST breeding season. I TOTALLY RESPECT the experience and YEARS/DECADES of experience that Ralph, Robyn, Kevin, Brian, Greg -- the list could go on and on of breeders/keepers, both well-known and less-well known, who have loads of experience.

However, I also feel you don't have to have years/decades of experience to do something well -- quickly. If a person is half-way bright, a quick study, asks the right questions, and not so tentative to make a mistake that they become immobilized the learning-curve starts to slow down. Listen to EVERYONE with an opinion. Weigh everything you here. Think about it and move forward. You can always alter things a little bit along the way. I am A LONG WAY from having mastered all there is to know/experience about keeping Balls.
-----
Bill Buchman

Google igloo reptile incubator.
Thats my set up. I found the DIY post on kingsnake and built it.
I am using a 120 qt igloo cooler with flexwat across the bottom and water bottles on top with 2 pc fans. The temps hold fine and the temps inside another box with no probe was also fine. I confess, I didnt candle my eggs. All 4 look done now. I have bred frilled dragons and have had no problems during incubation in the past.
I guess all 4 eggs were not fertile. If thats the case then the ball gods have started in on me early.