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Hello all, I have been looking everywhere and calling everywhere trying to figure out what went wrong with my burmese python. He seemed to be fine until yesterday when I picked him up and his throat and back of head seemed to be swollen. Also, the lower half of his body seemed to be lifeless, like he couldn't control it(it was completely limp). He appeared to use the bathroom on my boyfriend's arm, so I put him back in his cage. About 10 minutes later, he began making these horrible screeching noises and twisting around the cage with his mouth open and spitting up a clear liquid. I took him out(he lives with another python) and his head seemed lifeless, but his body was still moving for a while. I tried calling several emergency vets(which were very far away so I couldn't get there in time), but he died soon after I made arrangements to bring him in(at 1:00 in the morning also). Now I am very sad, but also want to prevent this from happening to my other baby. The other one seems to be fine, but I am not sure because it happened so fast with the other one. Some info on their living conditions: a big cage, about 3 feet square wide, and about 4 feet tall cage made of wood with mesh around the outside, and a heat lamp with a red bulb, and a heat rock, a big bowl of water for soaking in, and fake plants and a log tunnel for hiding under. he was fed frozen rats once a week. I had recently moved him from another smaller cage at my apartment to my boyfriend's to live with our other snake, and his house is a little bit cooler than my apartment. i figured the temperature was okay because he didn't have any eating problems, but i dont really know. maybe i should put plexiglass aroud the tank because it is such an open area...maybe a draft could have gotten in. i dont know if he liked his new cage because he stopped moving as much as he did when he lived at my place. i just want to correct this ASAP because i dont want my other baby to die. Anyone ever experienced anything like this or can suggest what might have been the problem? Thanks for reading this loooonnnng message...

Paragraphs are nice....
Spitting up clear liquid/fluid.... sounds like URI-- I've seen some come through the rescue that, for lack of better term, hock lugies- they cough so hard that a snot ball will slap the cage wall and stick-- its discusting! They also wriggle around similar to what you described- basically trying to breath.

Try a day-time reptile vet for the other one. If it is a URI- you'll spend about $100 to get him well....

Get a temp-gun--- they are like 20 dollars-- and actually CHECK the temp's in your cage-- if you don't KNOW- then you don't KNOW they were good temps.

And again-- take the other one to the vet--- and individual housing may have/probably would have prevented the other from getting sick-- animals should be seperate unless breeding...

Good luck- and I hope the other one does ok.

~Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

What is a URI?

Upper Respiratory Infection (URI)

It's hard to say for sure but it does sound as though your snake died from an upper respiratory infection (URI). It also appears that the snake's death is a direct result of your husbandry.

You're obviously distraught over the death of your snake and I'm sorry for your loss. This isn't going to be an easy reply for me because I have to be honest. While I'm considerate & compassionate about your feelings I cannot ignore my compassion for the snake that died, in my opinion - needlessly.

I don't mean for that to sound harsh or be harsh or rude, but we have to face the facts. Please bear with me & hear me out, while keeping an open mind.

Had you done your homework and researched the snake's needs and then met those needs, we most likely wouldn't be having this discussion. Your snake would most likely be alive, healthy, and you would be happy, posting photos of it instead.

OK, so you made a mistake. You're human. We all have made mistakes. Your mistake cost a snake it's life and cost you grief. You're not alone, there are plenty of other reptile enthusiasts that have done the same thing at one point or another, or at one level or another.

We can't change the past, but we hold our future and the future of our captives in our own hands. Please, do lots of homework, research. Get your other snake to a vet for a checkup ASAP. Your cage setup would be a deathrap for just about any other snake, let a lone one from a warmer climate.

I don't mean to be hard on you but I feel it's necessary to be perfectly honest. Hopefully this thread will save several other snakes from the same destiny. Let good come from this.

Hang in there!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

HH is perfectly right on with his post. I feel that klnowledge on these creatures is very crucial to a healthy and happy Burmese python and any snake for that matter. Temperatures are so important and they can cost the snake their life. Had i known this when i owned my first Burmese i would have inspected the tank that my buddy was pet sitting my last Burmese in. Thinking back i remember him saying that she ate like a monster but just died out of the blue. Snakes don't just die. There's always a reason for their death, weather it be old age, infections, or some other illness. I'm pretty sure that the snake that i left with a friend of mine was eating fine but simply wasn't given the correct temperature gradients that they NEED. Like said don't take this offensive but its better to know this than not. Also, do take your other snake(s) to the vet cause they may have caught the infection and you have seen signs so it would be best to check them out before its too late. And get the Temps on point. That's all. Hope i helped. I'm terribly sorry for your loss. I know how it feels!

Perhaps not... but the symptoms and quick and sudden death are trademark in pythons!!

Too busy flaming the poor girl and overlooking the what I believe to be the obvious!!!

Link below

Inclusion body disease (IBD)

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Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
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Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

Nobody has flamed anyone........, yet.

Let me begin by saying, yes, it is possible the snake in question died from IBD. From all that we have been told here it is my belief, as well as a few others', that URI is more likely. either way, without a full necropsy we're all, including you, doing nothing but playing a guessing game.

While there are some things that could lead one to believe it was IBD I feel there are just as many to lead to URI. #1 - being the snake's caging. #2 - how many IBD cases are you aware of that ended with "...twisting around the cage with his mouth open and spitting up a clear liquid"?

#3a - "Some info on their living conditions: a big cage, about 3 feet square wide, and about 4 feet tall cage made of wood with mesh around the outside..."

#3b - "recently moved him from another smaller cage at my apartment to my boyfriend's to live with our other snake, and his house is a little bit cooler than my apartment. i figured the temperature was okay because he didn't have any eating problems, but i dont really know."

How about you filling us in on just how many Burmese Pythons have survived such caging conditions without resulting in URI.

Another quote: "i dont know if he liked his new cage because he stopped moving as much as he did when he lived at my place." Hint! Hint!

Welcome to MY realm!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

The fact that the snake was limp the day before could indicate IBD, but the husbandry also leans toward URI. The only way anyone will know for sure is by necropsy. At any rate, IBD is not caused by husbandry conditions but can be brought out in times of stress, and the other snake is already exposed. Correct husbandry will do much to save the other snake regardless.

Do pythons that are paralyzed in the caudal half and have URI lean towards a typical URI or are the BOTH IN FACT documented symptoms of IBD, she will not get a necropsy... but get real I have NEVER seen a python die in the way described unless it had BD as noted by the Barkers!!! BD lacks paralysis!!

>>The fact that the snake was limp the day before could indicate IBD, but the husbandry also leans toward URI. The only way anyone will know for sure is by necropsy. At any rate, IBD is not caused by husbandry conditions but can be brought out in times of stress, and the other snake is already exposed. Correct husbandry will do much to save the other snake regardless.
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=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

I am fortunate enough in my 20 years of animal handling experience to never have had an animal with URI or IBD. Now I am not throwing a superiority complex around because I have made SOOOOO many mistakes in the learning process, especially in the 90's when a lot of info was unavailable.

I will still stand by my statement, and IBD research will show that stressful conditions will bring about IBD that has been dormant for years. The point I was making was that regardless of whether it was URI/IBD, the humidity and temp issue needs to be corrected. Even if she doesn't get the necropsy and no one ever knows if it was in fact IBD, something needs to change.

I am not flaming anyone and I GENUINELY feel for anyone who loses an animal. I am very sorry for the OP and generally stay away from on-line controversy. But to tell me to get real and assume that husbandry had nothing to do with this incident is a bit polly-annish. The OP came here asking for help, seems like she realized there was a problem. I agree that she did receive some attitude in some replies and I hope she doesn't leave on account of it. This is usually a great forum, but tones are easily misread on the Internet.

best wishes to you.

Not directed to anyone specific, but to everyone in general, please allow me to share a perspective that not everyone may be considering.

As a fellow keeper, which is most of ours viewpoint, I feel immense compassion for anyone that has a captive die within their care. This is my first response, thought, and I'm sure it's most of ours.

As a fellow keeper that mostly reads/posts on forums in an effort to combat the misinformation that is out there and to try to better the lives of the captives by sharing experience, proven techniques, thoughts, ideas, etc, as well as make it more joyful for the keeper, a different perspective sometimes comes into play. I not only share the pain of the loss with the keeper, I also look at the reason, or possible reason, and have to address it. I don't like pointing out faults, but sometimes I feel it's necessary.

One more perspective: Consider this - You raise a snake from a hatchling and sell it a few years later. You inquire of the person's abilities & experience and you're told they've been keeping snakes for 18 yrs and have done a lot of research on them. You sell them one of your favorite snakes that's dear to your heart only to find out a few months later that it's dead and you also learn of the way it was kept, which was far from industry standards.

As a breeder that cares about the future care/health of any/all of my snakes I have posted. Yeah, I may have been a bit too hard for some people and the original poster may never like me or be my friend. But I'll tell you one thing, I'm confident that any/all of their future captives will be better taken care of. -Mission Accomplished-

I tried hard to be nice & not to be too hard, I said so within my original post. I said "this is not going to be an easy post for me". It wasn't. It does bother me that I have offended some. The bottom line, though, is that this forum isn't really about humans, it's a snake forum.

I think all of my posts combined attest to the type of person I am. If I goofed on this one, I am sorry. It could be quite befitting since we're talking about being hard on people making mistakes.

Happy Birthday, America!!!
Happy Fourth of July!

HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Mr. Roberts,
I owe you an apology. I am sorry for the tone in my first reply to your post, it came out stronger than I intended and I didn't realize it until after I posted it & read it.

Yeah, I meant a tad of sarcasm, I won't lie, but I honestly didn't mean for it to be as harsh as I wrote it.

Also, when I said Welcome to MY realm" I was referring to my realm of thinking, not as if this is my forum.

Once again, I am sorry for the way I wrote that message. I hope you can overlook it but I can certainly understand if not.

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I was not even going to respond because these people don't know me or know that I have been caring for reptiles since I was about 7 or 8 years old(I'm now 25), and that I have actually spent a lot of time researching

these animals

because it is fun to me to read about them and learn how to take care of them, so it is easy for me to take all of the information in and remember it. I have always been interested in animals, particularly reptiles.

I have never had an experience like this before. The one that died was already 2 years old. I think maybe the move might have stressed him out, or maybe it was the temperature, or maybe it was IBD.

I have since moved the other one to a better cage and have begun rebuilding the old cage(installing plexiglass around it so no draft can get in and mess up the

temperature) and I did get a thermometer so I know what the exact temperature is. And I would never do anything to purposely kill one of my pets. I came on this message board to get advice and that's all I want is advice.

Thank you very much.

These things that everyone has brought up is good learning tools. I lost a burm back in 98 to R.I. and his condition was the same ones you mentioned. I know at times we say things and other people may take it wrong or what ever. But these forums are great for people like me because I don't know it all and this place is a great learning tool or tools.One thing I do know is that everyone learns from thiers and others mistakes. Thats why this place works. I'll shut up now. ha ha ha
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Education is Everything.......

I'm sorry you took offense to my original post, but I can see how it can happen.

"...these people don't know me..."

You're right, I don't. But I didn't address any of your personal aspects. I kept on the situation, not you. Honestly, if you'll set your personal feelings to the side I think you'll see that I addressed what I perceived to be the issue, and I tried to tread lightly but still address the problem. It's not easy. Like I said, that was not an easy post for me to make because I am a compassionate person.

"...or know that I have been caring for reptiles since I was about 7 or 8 years old(I'm now 25),"

I was still making mistakes at the age of 25, and I still make mistakes at the age of 46, although they're on a different scale now, different areas.

"...I have actually spent a lot of time researching these animals"

I realize there is a lot of misinformation out there but honestly, I've never seen a Burmese Python care sheet, or any person, say that an open-air/wire mesh cage is good for a Burmese Python. Quite the opposite.

A wire cage does not retain heat.
A wire cage does not retain humidity.
These are two vital areas to successful care of Burmese Pythons.

I've got nearly 40yrs of experience in keeping snakes, but I'll be the first to tell you that it doesn't matter how long a person's been doing something if they've been doing it wrong the whole time.

You asked for thoughts on your snake's death, you asked for advice. I gave you both and didn't get personal in any way. I'm sorry if I didn't tell you what you wanted to hear. I'm not hear for that.

Please, for your sake, don't let your defensiveness become a stumbling block. Don't let it keep you from grwoing, learning, which we all are contiuously doing.

Have a great day!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

what you feel in your heart is what matters more so then what any one here says

>>I was not even going to respond because these people don't know me or know that I have been caring for reptiles since I was about 7 or 8 years old(I'm now 25), and that I have actually spent a lot of time researching
>>
>>these animals
>>
>>because it is fun to me to read about them and learn how to take care of them, so it is easy for me to take all of the information in and remember it. I have always been interested in animals, particularly reptiles.
>>
>>I have never had an experience like this before. The one that died was already 2 years old. I think maybe the move might have stressed him out, or maybe it was the temperature, or maybe it was IBD.
>>
>>I have since moved the other one to a better cage and have begun rebuilding the old cage(installing plexiglass around it so no draft can get in and mess up the
>>
>>temperature) and I did get a thermometer so I know what the exact temperature is. And I would never do anything to purposely kill one of my pets. I came on this message board to get advice and that's all I want is advice.
>>
>>Thank you very much.
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=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

maybe we all need to take a step back and take a deep breath. We are all trying to help in our own ways.
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Education is Everything.......

"what you feel in your heart is what matters more so then what any one here says"

Sorry, but you're dead wrong. Step out of the liberal mindset of "whatever makes you feel good" and realize that it's what you have in your brain that saves the lives of reptiles.

A person's heart can be in the right place but without knowledge it's way out in left field all by itself. Let's be real, here.

HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I'm on a friend's laptop and am not used to the keyboard of it, so if I make spelling errors, bare with me.

I'm sorry your snake died. I don't know what I would do if my burm died. I am so terribly attached to her. I'm going to give you some advice on husbandry so maybe you can revamp the living conditions of your other snake so you don't have to go through this again.

First and foremost, throw away the hotrock. They are notorious for causing burns on reptiles. They get too hot in some places and not hot enough in other places. Replace the hotrock with an under-tank heater of the appropriate size. You'll want to put it on the same side as the lamp so that your snake can regulate its temperature by going from the hot side of the cage to the cooler side of the cage until it gets its internal temperature where it wants it.

Next, go to the petstore and get 2 digital thermometers (a cheap one is the Zoo Med Digital Thermometer with probe) and a digital humidity meter (a cheap one that is combined with a thermometer is the Zilla Digital Thermometer / Hygrometer with probe). Don't get dials or stick-ons. They rarely work correctly.

Put one digital thermometer on one side of the cage (the hot side) and one digital thermometer on the other side (the cooler side). Make sure the probes from these thermometers are at the level of your snake, not up by the heat bulb. You can also get a temp-gun, which will let you get the temperature of anything instantly just by pointing the gun at it.

A temp gun is only as good as how often you use it, and a thermometer is only as good as how often you look at the readings it is taking. Proper husbandry takes time and effort.

Your hot side should be about 90 and your cool side should be about 78. It can drop to 75 at night, but no lower. The warm side can drop to 80 at night.

To keep the temperatures where you want them, you need appropriate-wattage bulbs and an under-tank heater of the appropriate size, and plug them into a thermostat. A cheap thermostat is the Zoo Med 500R thermostat with probe. Google it to find a place that sells it. I'd give you a link, but I don't want to risk my post getting pulled.

Humidity is very important. It needs to stay at 50-60%. If you are having difficulty keeping it where it should be, invest in a mister system (a good, cheap one is the Zoo Med Habba Mist Auto Mist System). Of course, you can accomplish what a mister can if you are willing to spray your cage multiple times a day with warm water in a spray bottle. I find the mister to be more convienient.

The overall BEST way to keep humidity where you want it is to have a good cage. Cages with a lot of screen will do nothing to keep humidity in. In fact, if your cage just has a screen top, you should cover most of the top with tin-foil and tape it down to keep the heat and humidity in.

You're going to have to get a new cage if you ever expect to keep your other snake healthy. Square cages don't let you create a temperature gradient. Screen destroys your ability to keep humidity and heat in. This will be your biggest expense, but it is necessary. Choose a large rectangular cage with a front-opening door, solid sides, and preferably a solid top that has ventillation vents and a spot for the lamp. However, like I said, you can cover most of the screen if your cage has a screen top.

You can make your own cage, but because burms grow fast and are STRONG, your cage will need to be large and strong too, which can pose a problem for amature carpenters. Expect to spend an absolute minimum of $250 to get an appropriate cage.

As for bedding, you didn't mention what you were using, but I personally use pillow cases and wash them and change them every time the snake "pees" or poops. This, however, does nothing to keep up humidity. You can use cypress mulch to keep up humidity, or aspen, but DON'T use these beddings: sand, millet, walnut, pine, cedar, or alfalpha (sp?) meal. Make sure you clean out spots that have been soiled as soon as they have been soiled or you run the risk of your snake getting an infection.

Lastly, don't keep your snake with another snake.

Sorry for the wordy reply, but a lot of people were telling you that you were doing things wrong, but not telling you how to do it right. I hope I've helped you, and PLEASE don't let this advice fall on deaf ears.

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~Sara~
"If you look down on me, I am evil, If you look up to me, I am God, if you look straight at me, I Am you"
-Charles Manson