Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, you know we had a disappointment earlier, losing our little runt.

Some things have turned around a bit.

Background:
We keep two groups of easterns and a group of three-toeds for the breeding and giving away of hatchlings. It's a total of fifteen box turtles. Last year, we were given a rescue animal from a woman who got it out of a person's house where it lived in a ten gallon tank for years (over 6 she said, if I remember correctly). She drove it to our place (in north carolina) from Pennsylvania. She was thusly named PennyGirl.
It turned out that she was a HUGE female. This monster was easily twice the size of any of my other box turtles.

We kept her alone, as we had no idea where to put her.

Not long after, we were given Dirk, a huge male (still a bit smaller than PennyGirl), who was not getting along with the other males and needed a good home. Dirk's owner is a fine keeper, but I learned quick with dirk that he will go crazy if he can see another male, and will attack mercilessly, letting nothing stop him. Well, he gets along just fine with our female, so the two of them began sharing an 8'x8' pen.

Being so large, I had hoped to expand the group over time, but had no luck finding females so large (people who assured me that had "huge" females ended up showing me photos with rulers of turtles half her size). I don't want to put any small females in with Dirk, as he is an avid pursuer of his girlfriend and a smaller one might be overwhelmed.

Anyway, dirk tried mightily, and seemed to succeed rarely if ever at full mating, but PennyGirl did not become gravid. This spring I palpated her occasionally and found nothing. Palpating Pennygirl is a painful thing. She is close to being strong enough to break my fingers I believe. At the very least, she leaves bruises on them for days when she clamps on me. Yes, she is that big and that strong.

After this last year of pen building, disappointing nesting, and losing one of our two successfully hatched youngsters, we were out yesterday weeding and tending the pens like mad. We are starting the landscaping of them in earnest now. In Dirk's newly expanded pen (went from 8'x8' to 16x8) we were weeding when I found a baby box turtle. No other turtles could have laid this, and the female wasn't around other males for years. This is the only pen a box turtle baby could be found in and I would be 100% sure of both parents.

We were super excited, so we kept weeding and put the little guy in the house in our baby tank. Minutes later, my wife found another nearby the first. Now we were crazed. We kept searching and weeding, but found no more. Eventually, I found the nest and what was the leftovers of at least three eggs, but no rotten eggs or dead hatchlings or anything. We knew there could be one more in there we hadn't found yet. Sure enough, my wife found another. She settled back in to weeding while I was moving the little one to the bin we had out with us to hold them temporarily, and my wife yells at me. She almost squished a baby and thought I had set down the one she just gave me... A FOURTH baby. We decided to take a break and run these guys inside. After coming back out and getting ready to start again, my wife looked at her feet and found a FIFTH baby.

We scoured the pen and literally flipped every blade of grass and leaf, but didn't find any more.

So... we are excited.

These are Dirk's babies, and we had hoped that we could get some eventually to incubate and produce large sized females to expand his pair to a group in that pen. We'll hold on to these until we can determine sex (could be as early as a year, but most likely will be 2-3), then we'll give away any males we can verify.

So... we went from 2, to 1, to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 to SIX total babies in such a short time.... was a great weekend!

That's terrific news! how very lucky to have spotted them before something else did...!
Hopefully they'll become fine specimens like mom & dad.

Great news indeed.
Stephanie

a photo of the parents (dirk on left, penny on right). Hard to tell how huge they are from the photo. Some time I should take a shot of Dirk next to PrettyBoy...

five rollie pollie active babies.

One has a scute abnormality. Another has a hooked end to his overly long tail. Other than that I can find no fault in them. Most have very large amounts of orange on their legs, necks and heads already. They also have an overall orangish tint to them like their mother.

are they 3-toeds or easterns?
congrats on the babies!

These are easterns. Our single baby from the three-toed clutch is our only three-toed this year (and we had thought until monday to be our only offspring of the year at all).

These babies we will hold until we can determine sex, then any males will be given away and females retained to raise for the group that is only dirk and penny right now. Hard to find such huge box turtles, and I'd like to expand the group.

if Dirk bred with them(female hatchlings) once they come of age wouldn't that be inbreeding?
they are very nice turtles hope the hatchlings get some of that color!

yeah, it would be inbreeding. So far nobody has found problems with inbreeding in turtles, though. Some species can do it without problems, as has been proven by expirementation (not turtle species, other animals). Nobody has tested turtles, but I've seen no evidence from breeders to suggest it is a problem. The only species I know it's been done with are aquatic, because of their faster growth to adulthood. I know of nobody who has tried it by raising a box turtle to adulthood then mixing it into the parent population for breeding. That will take a long time (for maturity, probably 6-10 years, to determine sex, 2-3).

Already these babys have an orangish tint all over shell and body, and lots of orange on legs and neck. They are pretty striking. Also, they have chocolate brown shells instead of the typical black base that I am used to. Their plastral markings are more elaborate than my other smaller easterns have produced.

I know people inbreed fish for color, I'd just hate to see what would happen if something did go wrong with a turtle, guess I wouldn't want to push my luck with genetics,
good luck with these hatchlings!

It's instinctual for us to equate inbreeding with deformity, but I've actually found that's not an entirely accurate association. In mammals it seems to be for sure, but other animal types don't seem to follow the same rules in this regard. In any case, even in mammals, a single instance of inbreeding (for instance, dirk breeding with his own female offspring) should not produce deformity, or has a very very remote chance of it. It's later stages of continued inbreeding in mammals that does this (such as cousins producing offspring for several generations).

Still can sound odd, though. We are well trained to avoid it, and with good reason where the reason fits. In this case, though, it's not a concern.

either way I dont think I could put a *father* turtle in with the *daughter* turtle and allow mating, anyway, hope they turn out to be what you wanted, big, bright and beautiful!

Within the last few years I read an article pertaining to a study done on inbreeding & birth defects in humans: it was probably a statistical one, but anyway, I remember that the finding was that inbreeding itself was no more likely to produce "defective" offspring than an unrelated pairing would. Over generations of continued inbreeding, existing hereditary problems would be more likely to crop up, but inbreeding itself did not "cause" these defects.
The article went on to state that for humans it is more of a cultural taboo.
Of course, in some parts of the world, it has been a time honored tradition for cousins to marry cousins (in the US also, until relatively recently): frequently among the upper classes.

There is probably a significant amount of inbreeding in the wild, since Easterns mostly stay close to home and therefore parents would have overlapping ranges with offspring, and would presumably come in contact with one another with some regularity.

I'm all in favor of expanding the gene pool, so I don't know that I'd repeat the practice over many generations, but keep in mind, this is how different breeds of dogs, cats, cows, etc., were developed.

Those are some good looking babies, Nathan.

Stephanie

What a gorgeous pair! Will be interesting to see the babies develop their patterning and coloration.

I am into my third season of Eastern hatchlings and keeps tabs on the babies I adopt out. I'm fascinated to see what traits they take on from their parents.

Most of the time though, I have no idea who daddy is. Sometimes, I know.

Congrats again. I'd be thrilled too!

Paul

So what are there dimensions? It is hard to tell from the photo.

Bill

Do you have a measurement for us? I'd love to know how mine "measure up"...

Stephanie

Hi, I'm Durk's (the male) origional mommy. When I had Durk he was 5 3/4 inches long and 545 grams weight. Dawn

Penny is almost an inch longer than Dirk, but I'm not sure of their exact sizes at this point. I will measure them and get a photo of dirk and Penny next to Prettyboy, hopefully with something to show sizes.

In my area, the boxies are consistent with what I normally see in easterns, they stay around 4-5 inches, or similar in size to three-toeds. These are the only two easterns I've seen so much larger. I'd bet that there are populations like them, but I have found none. Even looking for animals to purchase no one has sent me a photo of one that was the right size (I don't want any more of the smaller easterns, I have two good sized groups of them).

Anywho, I'll try to get this information and a photo for ya'll tonight.

This is PrettyBoy (smaller wet one) and PennyGirl.

PennyGirl is Dirk's mate, and the mother of the five babies we found. She is close to 6.5 inches. Dirk is close to 6. The photo may not do justice to the mass difference between these two, nor their head and limb size differences. Dirk is smaller than penny, but not by much and he is vicious towards other males.

Oh, and penny and dirk are both significantly taller than Prettyboy (who is the largest of my other "normal" sized easterns). They do have basically the same proportions, though.

Those are big box turtles - excellent coloration - you make me want to run home and measure mine - just out of curiosity, and not competion though.

Would be a good poll - biggest box turtles.

Bill G.

When I first got PennyGirl, I kept her alone for a while, till I was satisfied she was healthy, then introduced her to PrettyBoy. He RAN away every time he was put near her. Then she moved to live on her own.

I really do want to have this group that is right now only a pair (dirk and penny) expanded to maybe 1.4, since I'm willing to bet the larger females can lay more eggs. No luck so far in finding them (which is why I am glad that maybe I just had some handed to me, though they must be grown first).

I'd be interested in finding out if anyone had big ones like these as well.

I have a female who is 6 1/2 inches in 2001 she weighted 765grams. I weighed her before she layed this year and she was just under 1000gms. I have had her for 4 years now and has layed 7 eggs 2001,none hatched 9 eggs 2002 with 7 hatched and 2 clutches, 2 weeks apart of 8 and 7 this year with the first clutch starting to hatch just now. My other female is almost half her weight at 428gms. and just over 5 inches. She typically layes 5-7 eggs.
Phil

Congratulations!!
Any chance of getting pictures?? MB

Congratulations!!
Any chance of getting pictures?? MB

Nathan, ok, I had to ask what kind are these giant turtles - maybe I missed that, and what sizes are they? Have any pics/

Bill G.

sorry, heh, maybe I didn't mention. They are eastern box turtles. I have two groups of easterns besides these, and they are all "normal" sized box turtles. This pair are two huge ones that I haven't been able to find comparable extra females to expand the group with.

I've had gulf coast boxies before, and they were twice the size of my others, that is how these easterns are. I put some photos above.

PennyGirl is the bigger of the two, and she is so large and strong I actually fear palpating her. She can actually make me yell in pain and will leave bruises on my hands for days if she clamps down on me. I think if she were a tad stronger she could break my fingers. I like the idea of having some big ones like this, particularly a group of 4 females with dirk as their male, because I believe I could get more eggs this way, thus having more babies to distribute.

Those little boogers are hard to find and you found 5 of them! It was meant to be.

Paul

no doubt! These guys can disappear on dirt just by standing still. Luckily we were de-grassing an entire half of each pen, to have mulch over it later, so all the weeds were going. Didn't leave much room to hide when all the plants in that area were being yanked.

Nathan, being Durks old mommy I am overwhelmed with joy that you got babies from him! I know how bummed out you were at losing the other ones. This has made my day. I'm so glad to have given him to you and that Pennygirl could tolerate him and give you beautiful babies! 5 at that! Congrats! Dawn

Hey, I sent you an email on Monday right after we found them. Did you get it? There's something in there you should read. If not, email me: nathan(at)aileo(dot)com

np

Really? Hrm...

I check my email every few minutes all day long, and haven't seen it yet. Do you mind sending it again? nathan(at)aileo(dot)com (aileo is my last name, I own my own domain, it's AILEO.COM).