Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey,
Ok heres the deal I have a baby red foot tortoise and im gettin a baby cb MTS tonight its my first MTS so I was wondering if when I get the MOnkey-tail all settled in and make sure theres nothin wrong. Do you think that it would be a good idea to start introducing them to eachother and see if they like each other and then maybe someday house then togeather because their need are pretty much the same except I gotta check out what temp the MTS enjoys the best. But yeah do you think it would work?

Thanx Justin Morash

You're asking for a whole host of problems should you attempt this. Namely:

1. Red foots eat dead lizards in the wild. What if he decides to try a taste of live lizard?
2. What's to keep the PTS from eating the Red Foots food? Animal protein is bad for PTS.
3. Red foots are diurnal. PTS are nocturnal. They may disturb one anothers sleep cycles.
4. Animals from different regions often have different gut flora and fauna which will be shed with feces. Exposure to these flora and fauna may cause illness in an animal that isn't adapted to deal with them.
5. Most importantly -- Chelonians are frequently carriers of Entamoeba invadens, which is fatal to lizards. Keep them separated at all times. Do your PTS chores *before* you do your tortoise chores. Do not mix dishes or equipment unless they've been sterilized. Entamoeba is difficult to detect and will not cause illness in the tortoise. The tort could have it and you would never know until the PTS dropped dead.

These are just the reasons that quickly pop into my head. There are many more that I'm sure others will happily list for you.

Good luck with your new skink. They're beautiful and fascinating animals.

-Z

Too many risks, and no real benefits that I can think of other than maybe save some space- set up two completely separate enclosures with the proper temp gradients, furniture, foods, ect.
Your PTS/MTS Corucia zebrata needs a vertically oriented enclosure with multiple levels, climbing branches, hides, a big shallow soaking bowl on the bottom, bask zone of 85-90, humidity 60% , vegetarian diet (dark greens staple), UV light (mercury vapor bulb works great)....
If you need help with diet suggestions- let us know.
Enjoy your PTS, you have a unique and wonderful species in your care.
Jess b
Ps- these are my PTS enclosures.

n/p

It is just not worth the many risks.

Its not good to mix species.I have tortoises too, 4 babies STAR, and they are very prone to have health problems.Parasites, runny nose, diarrhea.I dont even keep them together because if i did that when one is sick it will contaminate all the others!

Tortoises love to eat poop. It will eat your MTS poop and vice versa.Your tortoise can contaminate your MTS.Why to take the risk?

A few years ago i decided to introduce my baby iguana (at that time he was a baby, now it has 5 feet long!lol!)to my Baby Star tortoise. I put them together on the living room sofa. The baby STAR looked at the green iguana and thought it was a huge bean and decided to eat that huge bean .So the baby STAR gave it a huge bite! The baby iguana was lucky the tortoise was only a tiny one because if it was a large tortoise he could have lost part of this tail!LOL!

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

There is a strong bond between parents and offspring. A neonate Corucia MUST remain in the Circulus for a minimum of 3 years. Any less than this is tantamount to abuse. Also, Corucia should never be mixed with other species. Especially species from ythe opposite side of the world. What one species from S. America has immunity from can be different from the Asian Pacific.

Brian SFCRC

What's your reasoning for not separating juveniles from the circulus (I assume by this you are refering to the breeding colony?) until they are at least 3? Is this based on observation data in the wild?

-Z

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

It is an established fact based on observations both in the wild and under human protection. Orphans are taken in under age 3 with noted decrease in stress on the part of the neonates. There is a much greater incidence of the young getting the prod to 'leave the nest' by age 3. In the Solomon ecosystem, The young stay close to the Alpha female and a Alpha-Beta social order is observed when sleeping in hollows during the day. The lesser rank individuals sleep lower.

Sincerely,
Brian
SFCRC

Brian, I am not so sure I totally agree with that. You say:

"there is a strong bond between parents and offspring. A neonate Corucia MUST remain in the Circulus for a minimum of 3 years. Any less than this is tantamount to abuse."

I have always been under the understanding that Corucia OFTEN, but not always, have some maternal involvement with their offspring mostly in the form of protection, and that this involvement is not always exclusively to the mother. I have heard and read reports of other adults that seemed to be protective of babies that were not their own. However, I have seen and heard other reports of the opposite with adults (sometimes even the mother) occasionally killing a baby. I personally think that these situations are most likely brought on by over crowding, or stress. However, Corucia often have very fragile social bonds when kept in groups and it would seem quite possible that the event of a birth of a neonate itself could very well be stressful enough to the other colony members to actually be the causal factor of that same baby's death. It could also be theorized that a birth might also be responsible for some of the situations where all havoc breaks out in a colony that was previously harmonious. As far as I know, there really are not any hard fast rules in regard to social interaction and Corucia except to expect unexpected when you least expect it (try to say that really fast)). I was also curious as to where you came up with 3 years in the circulus (I assume that that is a fancy word for group, family, or colony). I have seen them do very well when taken away at much earlier ages. I have seen these same skinks grow up to breed and produce healthy babies themselves. In my opinion this protective behavior is something that Corucia have evolved to do, and it is exactly that; a form of protection from predators that helps the species to survive, much like a python that protects her eggs. Are you to say that there is more to it than that? Is there some emotional envelopment involved? Who knows, maybe. I certainly think that it would be a big stretch to make such a claim. Is it really so bad in captivity to raise up a baby without its parents? What does it need protection from? Is it any different that removing those python eggs to incubate them artificially? How about when we take baby gators away from their mothers. Being in South Florida, I am sure you know that baby crocodilians receive a great deal of maternal care. With Alligators, this care can last for up to 3 years with reports of up to 4 years, yet babies are readily available, and seem to do very well as long as they end up in the right with the right care. How are Corucia different in that respect? I realize you are very passionate about Corucia, but this seems a tiny bit extreme. Just a few thoughts forn the devil's advocate.

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

Granted, in the wild, I have never been to the region so I go on the reports of others. However, I can say from personal experience it is definately so. A young Corucia shows much more contentment and adaptabilty in a parental setting than yanked from this setting and forced to live alone. I have seen both sides of the fence and been on top as well.

Yes, Humans too can be snatched from their parents, recieve no emotional interaction, and survive to adulthood and reproduce. But is this proper? The odds are better with enrichment in the younger stages. They are living things with feeling such as contentment, rage, protectiveness, etc. It may not be as we humans understand it, but they do have individual characteristics and emotions and should be given a certain amount of respect as kindred spirits.

CIRCULUS def. Reptilian social order of marked structure. examples: Monkey skinks and the Gharial.

The purpose of acquiring Corucia zebrata is to provide as natural an environment as the rainforest life they can no longer inhabit.
It should not be for financial gain or a novelty 'mantle piece'.
We are there for them -not vicaversa.

I feel it is a subject that cannot be debated. I have seen the evidence with my own eyes and as such, I cannot be swayed. I do appreciate your letter however and the respectful manner it was presented.

Sincerely,
Brian
SFCRC

"Humans too can be snatched from their parents, recieve no emotional interaction"

I know by observation and my own experience with orphans/abandoned children that if a child doesnt receive love and emotional interaction until they are 3 MONTHS old they start to have psychological problems.Serious ones!

np

N/P

I am not saying one is better than the other. I do feel that this is a situation where your obvious passion for these remarkable animals may cause you to come to somewhat emotional conclusions. I too agree that neonates need to be left with their parents and their groups in the wild, for protection. Do they stay together for "emotional" security? I do not believe so, at least not as we know it. I really don't know how much emotion they actually feel, but I can safely say that I do not feel it is logical to compare them on the same level as a human. However, I do feel my comparison to crocodilians (specifically Alligators) was a very logical comparison, and that it raised a good point. I agree that groups are a very rewarding way to keep them, but there are many risks in doing this also (especially when a baby is involved). We both know this. We actually know very little about the social dynamics of these skinks. I do believe that the social aspects boil down to a safety in numbers situation, and to protection of the neonates. I just feel that captivity throws a whole new spin on the situation, and that it is not absolutely necessary to keep a baby with its mother for 3 years. I do value your opinion, and respect your passion for Corucia. There is no debating that.

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location:LEE/1.

Amoung numerous examples, I have seen unrelated Corucia in an import shipment show protectiveness to a GFO. The Neonate would crawl on top of and under these individuals. In another case of a GFO amoung a shipment, The baby was dead but a concerned male guarded the body. Objectively, not emotionally, would would have to concede this species would be subjected to undue stress and lowered immunine resistence by being separated from this emotional or instinctive attentiveness as a youngster.
The point is WHY? Why not wait unless one is driven only by the pursuit of financial gain in which case, there are plenty of non-Circulus ventures one can pursue with more pecuniary results.

It has been said I am driven only by emotion. It can be said on this issue, others of a different opinion are not driven emotionally enough.(No disrespect intended)

Sincerely,
Brian
SFCRC

No offense taken. Like I said. It is quite apparent that you have a great deal of concern, and passion you have for Corucia. Your dedication to the species is obvious, and to be commended. However, I still feel, that your point does not hold up with the human example. It actually points to what I am saying about the emotionalism in this one issue, which by the way is not necessarily a bad thing altogether. However, I do think that your love for this species, may cause you to draw some rather extreme conclusions. I do feel that there are, and can be, valid reasons to separate young from adults besides for finical gain, and I also I think it is great to raise up young with parents (especially when in a colony situation). However, there are also risks involved when doing this. Babies do on occasion get killed (sometimes for no apparent reason). I mentioned earlier how fragile the social dynamics can be at times. This is just one reason for separation. I totally agree that other adults will often protect babies that are not there own. Adults are often very protective of any youngsters. We both know that. I am also curious as to your thoughts in regard to my example about the crocodilians. I think that we agree more than you realize. I just feel that it in not as black and white as you seem to feel. There are pros and cons for each different situation in regard to this matter. I just feel that they can and should be explored so as to come to a logical conclusion that explores all aspects, rather than an impulsive or dare I say emotional decision. You speak about finical gain. This hobby is based on money, and that is just the way it is. I despise many aspects of the reptile hobby. I just feel that there are much uglier things happening in this hobby than the separation of a healthy captive bred baby corucia from its mother here in the US. I personally feel that the way these skinks are collected, and substandard conditions that they are imported here in, is much more criminal, if not legally, than morally and ethically. I just feel that Your judgment of the individual that sold the baby was not altogether a fair one based on this one action. Maybe he is a jerk. I really do not know. I do know of others who deal with corucia that are indeed jerks (you do to). As you have recently learned, people and their intentions are not always who, or what they seem...

Let me start out by saying I know very little about these skinks. But this seems like a case of anthropomorphism to me. You see this often on these forums when people are passionate about their animals. I don't know of any reptile that has a brain large enough to be capable of higher brain functions such as feeling emotions. Of coarse we have no way of knowing what reptiles feel since their brains are not large enough to communicate with us. IMHO

Tim

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

Corucia zebrata, unlike most reptiles, gives birth to one large youngster in most cases. In addition, they are connected to a placenta. There is great genetic investment in that one off-spring. That is why the bonding is so high. If you take Blue Tongues into consideration-it is the opposite. The female gives birth to many individuals and there is absolutely no care or emotional expressions of protectiveness. Indeed, the female mat attack the young.

Corucia zebrata is unique in many respects. The remaining in the Circulus issue should not be summarily dismissed-especially If one has not worked with this species for years.

Sincerely,
Brian
SFCRC

except for that last part.

That is actually not at all what Tim said. What you said was very much like what Zeteki said. My apologies....

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

He posted to the best of my recollection after I did.

Brian
SFCRC

Nope. It was early yesterday, and it was just down at the bottom, in a position that was easy to over look. It is interesting how similar the thinking is on these two different sides of this debate. It would seem that most our opinions are on the same page.

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location LEE/1.

I am not in this as a 'hobby' nor do I look for any financial gain. A Corucia reaching the SFCRC is guaranteed full sanctuary-meaning that they will never be sold.

Sincerely,
Brian
SFCRC

and may I say that that is also very commendable. However, While making your proclamation, you seemed to overlook what I consider to be some quite valid points. No matter. I enjoyed your point of view. Thanks for the ideas. I do appreciate it.

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

I basically was restating a position I have mentioned earlier on this forum. As I also have stated, for the good of the species, the SFCRC would consider breeder exchange for the genetic benefit of Corucia zebrata.

In the true spirit of Voltaire: "I may disagree with what you say but defend to the death your right to say it." I just wish you don't do it. I appreciate and admire the professional and intelligent presentation of the counterpoints on this issue. This is the way the Skink Forum should fly.

Another observation of this 'non-emotional' species: A male Corucia unrelated in a recent Corucia shipment of very sick Skinks guarded a dead neonate Corucia in the shipment of about 5 months of age. He occasionally nuzzled the dead youngster to try to stimulate the youngster to rise. And yes, the female Gharials have been observed leaving their newly hatched young in the care of the male to go back for hours trying to revive dead youngsters. Adolescent female Gharials have been observed laying by the female when she digs the young out of the nest. Just as dinosaurs were once considered Poikilothermic, dim-wit
ted and lethargic, Reptiles I feel are also underestimated in their abilities and social relationships. In Birds and other dinosaurs, Intellegence was based on brain size. However, it is not the Corpus Callosum (as in synapsids -mammals) that is the seat of intelligence in Diapsids (Reptiles and Archosaurs) but the Corpus Striatum. The moral of the story, don't sell the reptile completely short on some intellectual and emotional ability.

Sincerely,
Brian
SFCRC

Thanks for your time, and your thoughts.

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

James,

I enjoyed this thread as well. We'll have to do it again sometime.

Take care,
Brian
SFCRC

I wonder how old the so-called 'baby' is? I refer to the 3 youngsters in my family group as babies though the twins are approaching 3 years old. The new baby might actually be a sub-adult. I will be having to make the stay or go decision soon for the twins- so far no aggresion seen or sexual looking behavior- but I don't know how long this will last.
In the best of worlds, I think PTS neonates should stay with the breeding pair or dam, but if there is aggression or illness- they should be pulled. PTS are born ready fairly precocious- they are ready to eat, drink, poop and pee on their own, and can run and hide. They are not human babies, or other helpless mammal babies or birds that will die a rapid death without a dam to care for them. IMHO they are more akin to most other reptiles and are fairly capable of taking care of themselves from day one. Again, in the best of worlds- yes keep the baby PTS with the dam- for protection, for possible 'comfort', for transfaunation even- but is it necessary for the survival of the PTS neonate- no. PTS are definetly unique and wonderful animals, and I want what is best for them- the ones I have responsibilty for will stay together for as long as possible- but if I have any problems with my group getting along- I will without hesitation remove the ones in danger or the aggressor.
Cheers, Jess b

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

Hi Jessica,

First off, I wanted to ask you out of respect, is it ok to call you Jessica? or do you prefer Jess?

Your one point I wanted to call you on. In Ratites, The young are precocial-covered with down, legs well developed, eyes open and alert, and are soon able to feed themselves and become a Nidifuge. However, It is an established fact and I have been there personally (I have kept Rheas and Emus) that If the young are removed individually from the father, they will pine away, refuse to eat and die. If another Ratite youngster is not available for companionship, it is necessary to provide a sarrogate companion-usually an adult chicken. So full physical development does not not preclude the need for social interaction. I'm not saying a Corucia can't survive on it's own, I'm stating they are less stessed and grow up healthier remaining in the Circulus for the appropriate time-span.

It is good to hear from you. Thanks for your imput.

Sincerely,
Brian
SFCRC

Birds was very general- I was thinking more about the types I am familiar with (hook bills, song birds, corvidae ect.) Pretty cool you have gotten to keep ratites. Interesting and darn powerful birds.
My name is Jessica, but I generally go by Jess- and I use this on the internet in forums so I can be 'gender anonymous'. I don't really know why... shy I suppose.
Cheers, Jess(ica) b

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

Hi Jess,

I will refer to you as Jess. I just want to say be proud of who you are and don't be shy. Not to get personal and I present this professionally only, Jessica is a beautiful name. Your imput is always highly valued on this forum. If I caused you any embarressment my mentioning your full name on this forum, I deeply apologize.

Yes, Ratites are VERY powerful birds and I have strong memories of my daughters (Alessandra is 13 and Alyssa is 7) playing with the youngsters. The Adults, when overzealous at feeding time, could easily knock an adult person done to the ground or produce very painful results when handfeeding and they missed the target.

Sincerely,
Brian
SFCRC

np

Hello,

I do believe many animals have more individual attributes than we give them credit for. Brian seems to have an extensive knowledge of this species and as such, I tend to be guided by his opinion. But even if it was questionable, what is the rush or the harm by not waiting til the youngster is older? Better safe now than sorry later. James makes a good presentation, but when it comes to the best welfare of an animal, I am for it and would not cut any corners or take any controversial chances.

Best Regards,
Jean

I think we're dealing with two issues here. The first is the parental defense of the juvenile. The second is the emotional or physical health of the juvenile.

Parental defense may be solely for the purpose of ensuring reproductive success. Because Corucia employ a k-strategy in population growth (slow stable growth curve defined by low reproductive numbers and frequency) they are more likely to provide parental care to ensure that their offspring survive to carry their genes to the next generation.
(And I'd really love to read articles about Corucia behavior in the wild regarding this aspect, so please forward any article references if you have them Brian!)

So if the adults are providing protection solely for "selfish gene" reasons, is there necessarily an emotional impact for the juvenile? I'd have to see some type of negative behavioral or physical effects as a result of early separation to be convinced of this point. I too have seen juveniles separated from adults before they are a year old and have noticed no negative effects. Without evidence of an emotional response I have to chalk Brian's argument up to anthropomorphizing unless someone will present me with evidence to the contrary. I'd be very interested to hear from someone who has experienced deleterious effects caused by early (before 3 years) separation.

That said, I am of the school that we should attempt to reproduce the natural environment as much as possible. If that involves leaving the juveniles in the circulus for 3 years, then I'm not opposed to doing that. But it is vital to know where to draw the line between what is a necessary replication of natural habitat (temps, humidity, lighting, space requirements), and what is not necessary (200 acres of old growth forest, exact replication of native food sources) for the health of the animals.

The fact is that for many reasons it is not possible to perfectly reproduce the natural environment. There may be space restrictions (you simply can't fit a Solomon Islands forest into your living room), safety issues (as James pointed out, adults do occasionaly show agression to juveniles and to one another), or even financial constraints (perhaps restricting cage size and thus how many individuals can be contained in the circulus). Therefore we must determine what is *vital* for the well-being of captive Corucia and what is nice, but "extra".

Because I have not seen, nor heard of, harmful effects (behavioral or physical) as a result of early separation, and have seen juveniles separated prior to one year grow into healthy reproducing adults, I believe that the juvenile response to adult care is non-existent or negligible, and therefore leaving them in the circulus for 3 years is an "extra".

-Z

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location:LEE/1.

I have seen GFO's who were irritable, stressed, and nippy introduced and adopted into an established Circulus with young. The GFO's expressed immediate contentment and became as placid as can be.

Brian
SFCRC

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

Having the pleasure of involvement with over 60 Corucia, I can tell you I have yet to experience the slightest aggression of an adult corucia to a Neonate. On the contrary, They are very tolerant of the youngster climbing on the adult's back with their tiny claws.

Sincerely,
Brian
SFCRC

Thanks for that info Brian. Does lean me more towards the side of necessity for keeping them together as long as possible.

-Z

Well, i have had my Leonardo for only a few months but as i like him a lot i observe him a lot,too.He is a juvenile i dont know what age he is but he is only 20 inches long.I suppose he is less than one year.Although i have little experience with MTS i do have lots of experience with other animals and reptiles and IMHO Leonardo is not ready yet.Ready to live alone.Although physically he is healthy i dont think emotionally he is apt to live alone.For instance, sometimes he sleeps during a whole week without eating or pooping, he becomes stressed very easily, he seems unable to establish a daily routine, his schedule is a mess! He behaves just like my teen ager son who is not ready yet to live by himself!LOL!

Iguanas, on the contrary, are ready to live alone as soon as they get out from the eggs!I have lots of experience with iguanas and i can tell the difference!

I know that orangutans cant live without their parents (mother) for at least 3 years old.They even refuse to eat by themselves according to a lady that rehabs orangutans at the Malaysia Zoo! Hamsters, that are mammals too, can perfectly live alone after only one month of age! Perhaps MTS is a reptile equivalent to an orangutan?

N/P