Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Rescued snake - Claimed to be a mexican / yellow ratsnake hybrid.

The Stripes from the yellow are clear, but check out the head pattern and the saddle/blotch positions and sizes... Any takers for a better ID or confirmation of Mexican/Yellow ??

This guy measures 3.5 feet, is 4 years old and shed just last week so the colours are as good as can be.

Steve

(NT)

Good picture. It looks exactly like my hatchling pure black-rat babies. Could well be a pure black, pure grey or pure Texas. Its eventual colour won't be ascertainable until it is a fair bit older. At this point lot of the guessing may depend on the location in which it was found. I'd certainly not jump to any conclusion so specific as to say that it is a corn snake hybrid. The head size is relatively large, and leads me to think it likely isn't hybridized with guttata or emoryi.

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tricia

... doesn't that head pattern look more like a corn's arrowhead than an obsoleta pattern?
John

I don't know how my comment got included under the pic of the hybrids. The pic on which I was commenting, and to which I THOUGHT I was posting, is at this URL, being the message immediately above this one on this page ...

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=156231,156231

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tricia

But Patricia, what about the one we were looking at? It's an interesting looking snake. But wouldn't you agree that it's probably some mix?

John

Definitely a hybrid/intergrade. The arrowhead marking clearly visible in the bottom left shot, is typical of a corn snake. The body blotches are somewhat irregular, and so closely spaced that it undoubtedly has to be strongly influenced by a member of the P. obsoletus complex. The yellow-orangey background colour is beautiful, and does lend towards your suggestion of it being derived from an orange-phase lindheimeri, but could also have been derived from a hypo rossalleni.

When working with hybrids and intergrades, it is often very difficult to predict outcomes, and in viewing the progeny it can be quite hard to determine what the parents were. Your assessment of lindheimeri X guttata is probably the closest that we'll get to the truth. I certainly would concur with the high probability of that being what it is. It's a beautiful creature. I may attemt hybridizing my 2001 male lindheimeri with a bright corn female, just to see what the results are.

>>But Patricia, what about the one we were looking at? It's an interesting looking snake. But wouldn't you agree that it's probably some mix?
>>
>>John

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tricia

Now, that snake looks like a black rat hatchling.
Any guesses on the one in this thread?
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Remember, my posts are MY opinion only.
Jimmy (draybar)

Hi Patricia...

Problem is that this guy is about 4 years old. So I would have expected him/her to lose the baby colouring by now and be at the 'final' colour stage

Do you have any pictures of your black rats ?? I would be most interested...

Regards,

Steve

>>Good picture. It looks exactly like my hatchling pure black-rat babies. Could well be a pure black, pure grey or pure Texas. Its eventual colour won't be ascertainable until it is a fair bit older. At this point lot of the guessing may depend on the location in which it was found. I'd certainly not jump to any conclusion so specific as to say that it is a corn snake hybrid. The head size is relatively large, and leads me to think it likely isn't hybridized with guttata or emoryi.
>>
>>

I would think by four years old it would pretty much have it's full adult coloration. I don't know how much older it would have to be.
By the way...Do you have pictures of hatchling black rats that look like that? I have never seen a black rat hatchling that looks anything like that.
I would love to see that.
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Remember, my posts are MY opinion only.
Jimmy (draybar)

I am tending to lean towards a great plains (Emoryi) x yellow rat snake (Quadrivittata)

The great plains has the right length averaging 3-4 feet and the head pattern matches very well.

Do Emoryi occur with this brown colouring ???

The reason I'm thinking texas rat is the white showing around some of the scales. It's very reminiscent of some orange phase texas rats I have. And add in corn snake and it might give you the rest of the look you've got there. But who knows? Hybrids are definitely not an exact science (unless you have DNA testing available, and even then maybe not).

John

Looks like it has some lindheimeri (tx rat) in it to me, and cornsnake. Could be any obsoleta though, would be extremely difficult to say with very much certainty what it is exactly.

TravisG

Travis:
The white marks is what makes me thing lindheimeri also. Have you ever seen those marks on obsoleta other than lindheimeri? The rest of the color makes me think orange phase lindheimeri X Okeetee corn. Looks like someone is building a giant corn snake.
John

Many thanks for the help in this guys... I, obviously, do not have a clue what is in the gene mix here.

The only things that confuse me about having texas rat in there is the size of the snake and its temperament.

This is a 4 yr old adult that measures 3.5 feet ( give or take an inch ). I thought TX rats were huge and with corns averaging 5 feet, I would have expected it to be bigger.

With regard to temperament, the snake is nervous but not aggressive in the slightest.

The thing that makes me lean towards Emoryi is the size ( they average 4 feet ) and the head pattern. The Emoryi Meahllmorum is often known as the Mexican corn... Which could be what the original 'creator' of the animal was alluding to when he named it. The saddle and side blotch sizes are also perfect for the Meahllmorum the side blotches being bigger than normal corns.
( see http://www.kingsnake.com/ratsnake/emoryi.htm )

Also, and hopefully interestingly, the Meahlmorum hails from Southern Texas / Mexico...

Could it be an Emoryi Meahllmorum x Orange Lindheimeri ???

Steve:

As far as size is concerned, in many parts of the country the average size of a corn snake is significantly smaller than five foot. In addition, hybrids don't seem to always turn out as an average of the two parents. But who knows. It could be anything.

Good Luck
John

Steve

I have seen it it just about every obsoleta I think, though it is definately more prominent in tx and black rats.

The size could be due to many things, feeding, temps, plus those numbers you gave are averages, not neccessarily norms.

Come to think of it you're right Travis. I guess it was the photo that focused me on the white against that color pattern that reminds me of an orange phase texas. Most black rats also have the white coloring between the scales. But it's such a different color contrast that I didn't think to associate it with the other. Selective memory. I must be getting senile.