Reptile & Amphibian Forums

any one who has been reading my posts the past few days knows that i've been a nervous wreck about the well being of my bearded dragon but finally i am at peace with the world. I was questioning the knowledge of my vet with reptiles but finally i have to question no more, i just got home from the vet where i just sat down and had a conversation about everything and now i know for sure that he really does know what he is talking about. My doctor has been keeping reptiles for 15 years and he told me he has tried every product out there. I asked him about mecury vapor bulbs and are they really good do they give off uva and uvb. He said they is no deffinate proof that they actually do what the claim to do, he said just to stick to the stip lights like repti-sun 5.0 and iguana light they are proven to give off the right amounts of uva and uvb and just take my beardie outside as much as possible cause there isn't anything better for him then the sun. I asked him about sand cause i had been keeping him on playsand for the past 2 years untill my vet told me to switch to reptile carpet. His response was i just preformed surgery on a bearded dragon 2 hours ago who had a belly full of sand, so enough said on that. He told me to completely caught out crickets which caused controversy in this forum and with everything ive read. So today i askedh im again and he said the nutrional value of a cricket is practically nothing he said they are ok to give every once in a while just to see him run around and eat them there good exercice and king worms and all that stuff but he said there not really worth the trouble of keeping them or feeding them often. Then iasked him about dusting cause he told me i didn't need to do that either and he said i've used every type of vitamen and dusting source and he said that if i feed the right greens and the right types of food that dusting is unesscary. And we;ve discovered about a month ago that my bearded had pinworms and so today i asked him where he got them from and how long did he think he had them and he said hes had them since i bought him and i was like are you serious how can you tell and he said cause he had a type of pinworm only found in bearded dragons and since i only have 1 bearded dragon that he got them from his cage mates when i bought him and thats why he is underszied and underwieght but he told me not to worry about it that once there gone they he'll fill out and got chubby he just wont be as long. So finally i am happy and i know what to do and can hopefully keep my beardie healthy and i'm just gonna stick with what works.. sorry for the long post i am just happy i needed to share..

If you're comfortable with that vet, great.
Personally, I wouldn't go anywhere near him...
No nutritional value to crickets? Okay... How 'bout protien, water, and carbohydrates, just to name the obvious ones...

As to the mercury vapor lights... Well, I doubt anybody will dispute that they give off more UVA and UVB than fluorecents do. As to whether that's good or bad remains to be seen, I suppose. However, since they've been around a couple of years or more now, I would think that if they're causing problems, or are bad for reptiles, we'd be hearing about it.

Anyway, I hope your dragons do well and stay healthy.
Keep us up on how they're doing.

D.A.

i guess the vet is right that crix arent very useful...if theyre starved. gutloading crix provides a lot of the nutrition to the beardie. but gutload em like youre supposed to, and theyre grrrrreat

i think theres a problem with assumng that because someone has been herping for along time, that they always know what theyre doing. in some cases (such as this perhaps) they stick to their old information when mroe is known now about the needs of reptiles. or they assume because they know one species well that they know them all. sure, its great that the vet has raised reptiles for 15 years and apparently hasnt killd them all, but that still doesnt mean he knows how to keep beardies at their healthiest and happiest.
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

www.ent.iastate.edu/Misc/insectnutrition.html

www.angelfire.com/tx/facehugger/insect.html

D.A.

good to know
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

What is the nutritional value of hissers, death heads and lobsters?
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

I'll see what I can find.

D.A.

Didn't find a single thing.
Sorry.

D.A.

he has that information and sells them also

Wasnt this the same vet who told you to feed romain lettuce??
The idea behind no supplementation is that they get all their vits and ca from the stuff they eat? I just dont believe that. (Side note, those pre-cut pre-packaged salads have absolutely NO nutritional value, even collard greens, because of the way they are packaged)
My old vet, Dr Klingenberg breeds and keeps reptiles (not sure for how long) but you might recognize his name from all the books he's written/co-written. He's even quoted in the Mader book. Well he told me crickets are part of the permanent diet. That would be enough for me, but all the wonderful smart people here say so too, PLUS I had my first clutches of baby dragons this spring and summer and if I wasn't feeding them bugs what would I feed them??? I tried to get them to eat pellets and they wouldn't and they did not start eating green stuff for a few weeks. I also went some time with the wrong supplementation and some of them started to twitch and seizure. I learned my lesson the hard way, thank god I didn't loose any babies.

Just MHO
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DogStar

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." --Antoine de Saint Exupery

no i fed my beardie crix from when i first got him up til like a month ago, the vet said just that i need to cut them down just to feed them like maybe once every two weeks, he said they shouldn't be a main staple for an adult dragon since my dragon is 2 years old and he did tell me to feed mustard and collards and endive and escorale he was just saying that alot of people get down on romaine lettuce when it does provide alot of good nutrietion and vitamins. I don't want people to be mad at me but i think what he had to say deffinatly makes sense and he said hes been keeping beardies and leos and iguanas for 15 years and he just told me what worked best for him.

Maybe you need to consider it one more time. I truly feel that the suppliments and the crickets MUST stay in the diet. If you want a vet to tell you that, BUY A BOOK. All dragon books tell you to keep those things in the diet for the dragons whole life. I have never seen any reputable source saying to take them out for health reasons. Some people just don't like crickets, and the STRUGGLE to replace those nutrients that they provided. Crickets have the nutritional value of what you feed them. If you fat healthy crickets, IT IS WRONG to say they have no nutritional value..it is not just debatable, but wrong. There are lots of sources that have actually ground crickets up and analyzed their nutritional content, and depending on their diet, they can have a huge scope of nutrients. And suppliments...I have had SO many people begging for help with UNDER supplimented dragons (weak, seizures, back legs becoming paralyzed, ect) I have not yet seen an over supplimented dragon (not to say that can't happen, but it is much harder then giving to little). Why not be safe? Why take the chance?
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MY Dragons!!

With all of the bad advice that Rafferty's vet seems to be handing out, I thought I'd tell everybody about the one we have now, and see what you think.

As I've said before, I've kept reptiles for quite a long time now. More than 30 years, off and on. I've had turtles, lizards, frogs, and have even managed to tame the local fence lizard population we have here, just a bit. Also have a black racer running around out in my yard that I occasionally have to threaten people over, just to keep it alive.

My last "in-house" reptiles were a common green iguana, and a spiny tailed iguana. A ctenosaur. That was maybe 6 years ago.
When my wife and I decided to start keeping bearded dragons, we knew we'd be needing a vet. We had no idea how soon we'd be needing that vet, however.

We did quite a bit of research before hand, and given that I already had quite a bit of experience with lizards, and the fact that my wife and I had pretty much turned the tiny little fence lizards on our back porch into pets, we felt that the dragons were right for us, and that we could do a proper job of keeping them healthy. ( My wife was reluctant to keep a reptile as a pet, at first. She hates snakes, but the fence lizards, and the first dragon we saw at the pet shop running up to her and scratching at the tank changed her mind. )

Not long after we started looking for dragons, we found a pair we liked. The only problem was, the smaller of the two wasn't doing very well. Within a couple of days of getting them home, it was obvious that a vet was needed.

A quick call to the vet I used to take my dog to provided me with the name of a vet close by that handled reptiles. Dr. Burkhart. It seems he used to do some work for the local zoo as well. We couldn't belive our luck. ( The vet that I'd taken my iguanas to had left the area. )

Another call to the vet's office, and we had an appointment for that day.

Upon arriving, the vet took us back to the exam room and started looking the dragon over, and asking us questions about it's enclosure, temps, food, etc. He seemed pleased that we had set the tank up a couple of days before, and made sure that everything was okay before we put the lizards in it.

I had also brought along our copy of "The Bearded Dragon Manual" by Vosjoli, to ask the vet what he thought of it. It met with his approval.

To make a long story at least a bit shorter, Dr. Burkhart did what he could, but the weak little dragon was just too far gone.
Despite the doctor's best efforts, and ours, it died a few days later from the stress and coccidia.

We did get a replacement from the pet store. We weren't going to at first, but since we had told our little girl about them on the phone, ( She was away on a visitation with her biological father ) and she was expecting TWO dragons when she got home, we figured we'd better.

Shortly after she got home a few days later, we not only ended up getting a third dragon, but also made an appointment with Dr. Burkhart for all three of them, to get them checked out ang get fecals done.

Dr. Burkhart examined all three, and got the fecal exams started. They all seemed to be healthy, but once he looked at the fecals under the microscope, it was obvious that two had coccidia. Not a big surprise. The two that had it were from the same place as the one that had died.

He let myself, my wife, and our 7 year old have a look through the 'scope, so we could see exactly what the problem was. Then he asked "Did you bring that book with you?"
Um, no... Why?
"Well, there's a couple of things I can treat them with, but I want to know what the book says will be easiest on them."
Um... The book says coccidia is best treated with Albon, in bearded dragons....
"Then Albon it is. Like I said, there's several things that I can use to treat 'em, but I'd like to use the one that'll be easiest on them."

The doctor went on to explain that sulfer based drugs are hard on the kidneys, and to be sure they got enough water. He was adamant enough on this point that he told us not to medicate them at all if they hadn't drank that day.

Also, the doctor only charged us for one animal, and one fecal, even though there was three of each. A little over 55 dollars for the whole works.

Well, here we are about a month later, and our three little monsters are fine, and eating like pigs. We'll be taking another fecal in shortly, just to make sure though.

So, that's my story on our vet.
What do you think? Should we find another one? Or should we stick with one that admits he doesn't know it all, but is willing and able to learn?

D.A.

P.S. Here's a pic of one of the fence lizards that helped convince my wife that all reptiles weren't created equal. lol

personally, id rather have a vet that doesnt pretend to know everything when he doesnt. its better that he asks whats recommended for treatment than make a guess and get it wrong. id say just keep hanging out here and learning all you can so that you and your vet can basically help each other figure it out
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

Don't worry, I have no intentions of changing vets.

I've found, over the years, that the people that claim to "know it all" about anything are usually the ones that know the least.

There's no doubt in my mind that if there was something that Dr. Burkhart didn't know about, he'd say so, and send us to someone who did, as well as do everything he could to find out for himself.

D.A.

i hate know it alls
as long as youre comfortable with him, thats all that matters
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

Maybe you know it alls on this board need to take a look in the mirror.Sure seems to be alot of vet bashing here by a bunch of people with no veterinary degrees of their own.Much of what was stated by his vet is true.The vet that is a member of our herp society just did a brilliant lecture with slides last night showing numerous growths and mineral like crystals that he has had to remove from pet lizards over the last couple of years due to over supplementation.Lizards bodies will eventually start storing extra vitamins and minerals in body parts where they were not intended to be.He showed a very nice and healthy looking ornate uromastic that could no longer crawl because of the crystals that had formed in his front leg joints due to over use of calcium and vitamin supplements.8 such crystals were removed from his body in total.The lizard made a full recovery and is once again a top notch breeder with the necessary adjustments to his diet.Calcium powder and vitamin supplements should not be used daily by any means.Once a week is plenty.It is also true that UV bulbs are not 100 percent true replacements for natural sunlight.My vet suggest at the very least 30 minutes of direct sunlight 3 times a week for bearded dragons.He also agrees that crickets should not be the main staple in a bearded dragons diet.He meets on a regular basis with a large group of vets that specialize in reptiles and most of the find that mealworms are a better choice for bearded dragons.They also feel that both crickets and mealworms should only be used as a supplement and not the main staple.I would also suggest for those who are using crickets to get babies started to make sure to feed your crickets the vegetables you want the dragons to eat on their own eventually.I also feed my crickets the Rep-Cal pellets.This gets the taste of the pellets in the dragons mouth and seems to get them used to eating the pellets quicker.I would like you all to stop bashing the veterinarians and if you have concerns about what they tell you simply ask questions and explain or show them where you are getting opposing info from.They have the years of medical school behind them that you don't.

You have veterinary degree, Jeff?
I was told, by a vet, that most veterinarians study horses, cows, dogs and cats in school...

There are MAYBE half a dozen vets in my area that'll even look at reptiles, only a couple that have any real experience with them, and only ONE that specializes in reptiles. These are facts that I learned from talking to the vets around here when I first started looking for a reptile vet. It seems that reptiles require quite a bit of extra study, and most vets aren't willing to take on the expense.
I ended up having to spend quite a bit of time with the Nashville zoo's reptile people when I started dealing with exotic lizards. There just wasn't anyone else to ask or talk to. ( Didn't have the internet to fall back on, back then. )

Next, who do you think really knows more about a particular kind of animal, people that deal with them every day for years, or somebody that usually only sees them every once in a while?
I know who I'd want to talk to, if I had questions about that animal.

And every good doctor that I know of or have ever dealt with, no matter what species he/she deals with, will tell you that they don't know everything, and are learning constantly. But also that there are certain general guide lines that should be followed. Diet, living conditions, temperature, etc.

So, when a doctor, veterinarian, psychologist or whatever starts contradicting what 99% of the others in their field are saying, especially when it's about those "general" things, it's probably a good sign that they have no idea what they're talking about.

And i won't even start on the ones that are only in it for the money....

Now, about those crystals you were talking about... You mean the uric acids that build up in the joints and organs when the body can't eliminate them? What's commonly known as gout? Or are you talking about some other mineral condensing in parts of the body?

D.A.
( The know-it-all that doesn't know everything about anything. )

Yes I'm talking about gout although that was not the only topic of his lecture.No I don't have a veterinary degree and never claimed that I did.Everything that I have stated above came directly from a veterinarian that keeps reptiles himself and is the official veterinarian of the National Reptile Breeders Expo and has far more pratical and surgical experience than you ever will.He also is the provider of all the veterinary articles for the newsletter of "The League of Florida Herpetological Societies".He has never claimed to know everything nor did I claim that he did.I know plenty of people who have been in this business longer than most on this board have been alive and they still don't have all the answers and don't always have the healthiest animals even after the 40-50 years of experience.I myself have been keeping reptiles for about 25 years and don't claim to be an expert by any means.The veterinarian in the original post on this thread never said to get rid of all the items being discussed here.He simply said everything should be used in moderation to obtain optimal health for the animals.There is such a thing as overdoing it.You seem to have deemed yourself the God of bearded dragon care.I for one will take the recommendations of my vet over your opinion anyday.Get the chip off your shoulder already.Your opinion does make everything you say a fact.

I meant to say your opinion is not fact.Sorry for the error.

I don't recall deeming myself "God" of anything.
And as far as a "Chip on the shoulder", maybe you need to look in that mirror you mentioned earlier.
Also, the things that I've posted about concerning vets and medical people, I've learned from MANY doctors and veterinarians, and many hours of talking to them, not just one or two.

Besides, if I'm too far off base, there's plenty of very knowledgeable people here that I'm sure will let me know about it. Some of them have posted in this thread already.

D.A.

Umm, I don't think anyone on this board recommends giving calcium supplementations to adult dragons on a daily basis OR recommends feeding them crickets as a staple to adult dragons. Just pointing out that crickets have nutritional value AND ca be included in their diet.

Geese guys chill out. What are you guys 13 year old girls. Calm down, i don't see why your fighting, nobody knows everything and nobody claims to. Jeff is just sticking up for vets which i think deserve alot of credit. Everybody else that is a breeder or that has been keeping reptiles for a long time too know alot about reptiles. Nobody has all the answers and i think everyone needs to stop fighting and start trying to help people. This site is not about who knows the most or who knows the least its about everyone trying to help everyone else out because we all share a common interest and we all wants whats best for everyones animals.

Jeff you are my main man, i'm only 16 years old i come on this site to try and find out all i can so my beardie can be as happy and healthy as possible. I am by no means a vet or a vetrinarian and i understand that alot of people in this forum know alot about reptiles and what works for them in keeping them. I think it takes alot of guts for people to be bashing vets, and it seems like your vet and my vet are on the same page my vet told me all the same stuff yours told you, and i am glad finally someone is standing up for the vets. This site should be for helping people trying to keep herps not about exploiting the fact that they don't know everything nobody does and thats why people use this site, i think people need to chill out and understand that everyone might not know as much as them and that everyone on this site isn't a breeder and can't devote all there time to learning more, i'm 16 i got to go to school go to practice go to school meetings and get homework done, i try and do my best and learn everything i can. But i think everyone needs to take a chill and realize what this site is for.. just helping people out

Maybe you need to consider it one more time. I truly feel that the suppliments and the crickets MUST stay in the diet. If you want a vet to tell you that, BUY A BOOK. All dragon books tell you to keep those things in the diet for the dragons whole life. I have never seen any reputable source saying to take them out for health reasons. Some people just don't like crickets, and the STRUGGLE to replace those nutrients that they provided. Crickets have the nutritional value of what you feed them. If you fat healthy crickets, IT IS WRONG to say they have no nutritional value..it is not just debatable, but wrong. There are lots of sources that have actually ground crickets up and analyzed their nutritional content, and depending on their diet, they can have a huge scope of nutrients. And suppliments...I have had SO many people begging for help with UNDER supplimented dragons (weak, seizures, back legs becoming paralyzed, ect) I have not yet seen an over supplimented dragon (not to say that can't happen, but it is much harder then giving to little). Why not be safe? Why take the chance?
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MY Dragons!!

i did supplement for most of the dragons life up until now, the vet was saying that now since he is 2 years old its really just hasstle to still be supplementing and that they can do find getting the vitamins from the greens.

But you see...ALL OTHER KNOWLEDGABLE SOURCES SAY THAT IS WRONG. GO pick up ANY dragon book, even the bad ones say that you should contine to supplement throughout the dragons whole life. The books written by people who have devoted thier lives to studying only bearded dragons say that adults should be supplemented every 2-3 DAYS. This is not hard to understand. Your vet is wrong. Not because I think so, but because people who have studied dragons for years say so, and they all agree. I have NEVER read otherwise. Even in those books saying they should get walnut shells as substrate they have teh sense to supplement. They can NOT get what they need from their diet, unless you feed crickets that are on a extremely HIGH calcium diet, or feed butterworms maybe...but if he said to take them off live feeders. Here is the nutritional value of Romaine lettuce which you SHOULD NOT be feeding anyway...isn't that what he recommended to you?

Nutrition Information For Romaine Lettuce

All values are for a one Oz. serving.

Calories (g)... 4.54
Protein (g)... 0.45
Fat (g)... 0.06
Carbohydrates (g)... 0.68
Calcium (mg)... 10.21
Iron (mg)... 0.31
Na (mg)... 2.27
Pot (mg)... 82.22
Phos. (mg)... 12.76
Vitamin A (IU)... 737.1
Vitamin C (mg)... 6.8
Thia (mg)... 0.03
Ribo (mg)... 0.036
Nia (mg)... 0.14
Saturated Fat (g)... 0.01
Monosaturated Fat (g)... 0.0
Polysaturated Fat (g)... 0.03

Crickets
Moisture 68.96
Ash 1.52
Protein 20.72
Fat 5.74
Carbohydrates 3.06
Mg/100g Calc. 21.53
Mg/kg Vit. C 105.90
Dietary Fiber 2.80
Calories/Fat 51.66

I don't know about you guys, but crickets are not the "empty" food in my opinion. There is nothing with substance in the lettuce at all, just a few trace minerals and a couple of calories. Imagine a person living on this diet! They would be skin and bones in a few months. And what about that vit A? That looks like a disaster waiting to happen? Thats probably why the dragon has not been feeling so well, he has toxic levels of vit a in his system.
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MY Dragons!!

Alright can we all come down, my vet said in his own personal opinion and from what hes learned from keeping his reptiels and what he has read that he doesn't liek cricktets. I was just as sceptical as you i was like everything i've read is saying supplement and crickets and he responded with, a.) kingworms, or mealworms are better for the bearded dragon than crickets but nevertheless they should be fed sparingly and that if i feed the right foods that he should be able to get all his vitamins and calcium from the greens. I feed my dragon, endive, escarloe, bok choi (on occasion), raspberries, mango, papaya, and some romaine lettuce. He DID NOT tell me to feed romaine lettuce as a staple he simply said that, alot of people get down on romaine lettuce but it does have a lot of good vitamins and minerals, and he even went as far to say that yes collards and mustard greens are way more loaded with vitamins and minerals then romaine but that romaine isn't somthing terrible to feed. He said i should view feeding crickets and mealworms and kingworms as like having desert after dinner. That my dragon should be eating all these good greens than like once a week or once every 2 weeks through in some crickets or mealworms or whatever to give the bearded some exerice and have fun wathicng him catch them but not to think that they are something really important to feed. And yes he does have experience with beardies and repitles for everyone that is saying that he may know something but he may only see a reptile every once in a while, i know people that bring the beardies to him and the day i went and saw him he just got done preforming surgery on one of them for sand impaction.

The other thing that most people here are forgetting is that bearded dragons don't get Rep-Cal calcium powder or Herptivite in the wild.They don't get anywhere near the variety of quality vegetables that we provide them while living in the wild.We as herpers sometimes go a little overboard with supplementation.Bearded dragons have done fine in the wild without all this pampering.I know everybody has the best interest of the animals here.Just don't be to closed minded and don't condemn others without proof.You may just learn something new.Veterinarians are working with knowledge that has been learned through science.Doctors that treat humans learn new things everyday that contradict what we have been told all our lives.Does that make them idiots.I don't think so.I don't want to get into fights with anybody here.We all need to learn to state our opinions instead of calling a dedicated professional a quack just because his opinion is different than your own.

Okay, Mr. Tillis, one more time, just 'cause I don't have anything better to do at the moment, then I'm done with this thread....

Mr. Tillis wrote:
""The other thing that most people here are forgetting is that bearded dragons don't get Rep-Cal calcium powder or Herptivite in the wild.They don't get anywhere near the variety of quality vegetables that we provide them while living in the wild.We as herpers sometimes go a little overboard with supplementation.Bearded dragons have done fine in the wild without all this pampering.""

Me: No, there's no rep-cal in the wild. But it's already been determined, long ago, by those very vets that you seem to idolize so much, that reptiles in captivity need suplementation, due to the fact that they are unable to seek out the proper nutients on their own.

From Kathryn W. Tosney, Professor of Biology at The University of Michigan's web site http://www.biology.lsa.umich.edu/research/labs/ktosney/file/BDcare.html:
"Dragons must have two things for proper bone growth: calcium and full-spectrum lights (below). If calcium or vitamin D3 are deficient, the dragons get "metabolic bone disease", which is deforming and ultimately fatal. Most diets and care regimens today focus on maximizing calcium and vitamin D3 levels. To synthesize vitamin D3 your dragons need light at the right wavelengths; unless you can offer light typical of the desert, both in intensity and spectral quality, you should supplement the diet with calcium, and probably with D3 as well."

Prof. Tosney doesn't say if this applies to adult dragons here, so here's something that does address adult dragons:

From "The Bearded Dragon Manual" by Philippe de Vosjoli, Robert Mailloux, Susan Donoghue, V.M.D., Rodger Klingenberg, D.V.M, & Jerry Cole, copywrite 2001.
From Page 60 :
"Adult bearded dragons should be offered four- to six- week-old crickets and/or superworms daily or every second day. Other prey for occasional feeding can include mealworms, wax worms, and other commercially farmed invertebrates, such as grasshoppers, locusts, and other field-collected insects (make sure the fields and lawns haven't been treated) and small vertabrates such as young mice. Adult dragons also relish young lizards, so should never be allowed access to pet baby dragons in the house-hold.
Supplemented salads should be offered daily or every second day."

Mr. Tillis again:
""I know everybody has the best interest of the animals here.Just don't be to closed minded and don't condemn others without proof.You may just learn something new.Veterinarians are working with knowledge that has been learned through science.Doctors that treat humans learn new things everyday that contradict what we have been told all our lives.Does that make them idiots.I don't think so.I don't want to get into fights with anybody here.We all need to learn to state our opinions instead of calling a dedicated professional a quack just because his opinion is different than your own.""

Me again: I don't recall anyone saying a vet was a quack or an idiot, only that some give POOR ADVICE. Some do so out of ignorance, or, believe it or not, out of a desire NOT TO LOSE A PAYING CUSTOMER.
As much of a shock as this may come to some people, there are actually doctors and vets out there who aren't "Dedicated Professionals". Some are only in it for the money.

Oh, and the info I presented from Prof. Tosney and Mr. Vosjoli may be a year or two old, but I don't believe there's been any earth-shaking new discoveries in herpetology since they were first printed that would make what they're saying invalid.

I don't think it takes a degree in biology or anything else to see that if an animal that's being treated for a parasite flare-up that was probably brought on by being stressed by a change in it's surroundings and care to begin with ( Being boarded ), that it's probably BAD ADVICE to suggest stressing it further by changing it's diet, lighting, substrate etc.
Especially when those changes are contrary, or questionable at best, to what MOST professionals and breeders of that animal say they should be.

D.A.

Once again I am not discounting these books(given that I also own them)or any others for that matter.The fact is that calcium and D3 do not only come from supplements.With a proper and I emphasize proper diet both are already supplied in the vegetables being offered and through proper UV exposure negating they need to provide them artificially.There is a reason that Rep-cal makes calcium with and without D3.Too much becomes a toxic situation.The vets would not be working on these animals to treat gout and removing built up calcium deposits if it was as simple as give them a little of everything available everyday.The original posters vet never said anything that contradicts those that you referenced.It is only your interpretation that he did.You were the one that said he should not be trusted,therefore you were bashing him.I did not mean that you litterally called him a quack but that seems to be what you are insintuating.You have never met or spoken to him yourself and should not base your opinion to others on him until you do.I for one have never met a vet that is just in it for the money.There are alot easier professions than this if someone is only interested in making money.My original post was aimed at those who decided to refer to this vet as a "know it all" which inturn leaves the impression that those people believe they know more than he does.Until you get your veterinary degrees I can't agree that you do know more.I don't base my practices on the opinions of one vet.We have had up to three as members of our Herp Society at one time.Our current vet does not base his information only on guesses.He meets at least four times a year with the best herp vets in the country to discuss findings and learn new approachs to dealing with reptiles.He also works very closely with the staff at The University of Florida in Gainesville.I also spend alot of time discussing animal care with other breeders at the 8 or 9 expos I attend every year.

I am waiting for my UVB meter to arrive in the mail. As soon as it does, I will be starting a UVB study on florescents like the Reptisun 5.0 as well as the mercury vapor bulbs like Powersun and Active UV. I'll post the results on my website as soon as I get started!

Veronica
Beautiful Dragons

I'll be looking foward to it.It would be nice to know if we are really getting a good value for our money.It will be real interesting to see how long the useful output works for both bulb types.Be sure and take some readings outside in the sun using the same process for comparison.It would also be interesting to see some regular light bulbs in there too.