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http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={C14707C2-2994-4986-9DBF-A99205F63980}&exp=f&moddt=38577.0920291204[/img]

In the BLUE. This is the lightest one:

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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

This is the same snake as it grows up:

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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

>>This is the same snake as it grows up:
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>>ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!
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>>"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar
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Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
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Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

kinda neat how the PB influences in the adult pic

I still wonder how the red eye albino and the peanut butter (no red eye) are allelic? The Jelly morph does not have red eyes.

I think Paul Hollander said it best..."the T negative and Peanut Butter are different mutations that are derived from the same normal gene"

I don't think people realiaze that the T negative trait is a lot rarer than the PB trait. I have produced PB's in the last 6 years but only produced T negs twice.

An adult female T negative albino. The males get even bigger!

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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

""I don't think people realiaze that the T negative trait is a lot rarer than the PB trait. I have produced PB's in the last 6 years but only produced T negs twice.""

That is an understatement but let's take it further shall we? You and I both know what is rare and what isn't with these Kings but every year I get asked for snakes that are practically non existant but since they have seen a picture of one they assume "they're out there"

Like within the Phantom/007 project. People are not half as interested as they should be in possible hets, but they do not realize that is all there is at the moment, if there's any 100% hets those are costly and again uncommon.
Even PB possible het for other traits are uncommon and if the truth be told there's not many PBs out there yet is there? Yes you produced them for a few years but some went overseas and there were more males produced than females correct? I don't think people realize that you can not just go online and find PBs like you can Hypo and Axanthics.

Throw in def double and triple hets, double homozygous, and beyond and there's not much to pick from outside of the three standards which seem to be Hypo, Axanthic, and White Sides. Even Lavs are not all that common....and since I am on the subject, how about Sulfur Lavs? How about true Flames? How about true normal Brooksi???

As popular as these snakes are people do not seem to recognize that this is the tip of the iceberg. There's so much potential for new unseen as of yet morphs but even the ones people are seeing now are just not out there in quantity.

Come to think of it there's not too many Ghosts out there and remember when Pro Breeders had the Hybino a few years ago? That was different than others I have seen and how many of any type of Hybinos have been seen???

So, after my rant of examples. I think it is safe to say that Hypos, White Sided and Axanthics are common. White Sided Axanthics seem to be the more commonly seen double homo as opposed to the Ghost.
White Sided Hypos are not in quantity, neither are Snows. Sulfur Lavs, T Negatives, Sulfur Snows, and Jellies..... rare for sure.
Let's not even touch Phantoms, Peabinos, Bone White Hypos and other things... the point I am making is just because a few of us love posting pics of our Brooksi King morphs does not at all mean they're readily available, and it is unlikely all I mentioned will even be produced this season, and if so how many could there be in 2008? 10-20-30??
I am extremely excited about all this, I know you are too Rainer, and I am glad I stuck to my guns and continued expanding Brooksi in my collection. This is the King of the future as far as morphs go. I like ALL Kingsnakes, they do not have to be morphs....but morphs are my personal fave and I am crossing my fingers for a ton of them this year. If the few breeders out there with the ingredients to produce some of the rare morphs all had a killer year there would still not be too many of the newest ones for sale anywhere. This is only the beginning
Tom Stevens

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TomsSnakes.com

Tom, your rant was wieghted to the side already having brooksi. The difference now is that florida king morphs already have a history, and with that a high water mark and a low water mark with each successive gene. The t-'s have been around for more than 10 years, and many like me didnt get them 10 years ago because(as now)there are so many other types of morphs in ALL types of snakes....and as a breeder they dont hold their price. The reason you dont see many people breeding them(in relation to cost/morphs)is that they have been swallowed up by the honduran market.
And, in my opinion, the "new" morphs are being marketed (read TOO HIGH $$)as if there will be a new market(and higher future prices)for these new morphs. In reality, people have alot of different places to put their breeding efforts. There are plenty of more colorful, less costly species that SHOULD hold their long term value ALOT better than brooksi(given its history). To "invest" $1k in "possible hets" is foolish.
You see, with each new morph/combination the price will be going DOWN not up. The number of specimens needed to produce each of these(or even half)is more rack space than most want to dedicate. And like corns, the multimorph forms will have their max price(usually set by the market not the individual)and the possible hets will have little or no value at all(like the $5 possible het corns). If you look at the corn classifieds you can see the max prices for yourself.
And then there are other factors. The pb/jelly gene hasnt been truely nailed down yet. The fact if the jelly turns out to be a gene-killer the price SHOULD go down immediately because there is no future breeding a morph that in fact would eliminate 2 other morphs from its prodgeny right? Now I dont think it likely....and then there is the fact that few adults exist and the difference in appearance between adult morphs lessens mostly because most snakes are versions of 2 colors(black and white)when there are alot more snakes that add the 3rd color(red)in the mix.
But I still like em. They are easy. They are trashcans. They will always have room at the table in any discussion because of the numbers of morphs and multi morphs but to suggest that supply/demand will change the whole market is a bit short sighted I think. But what do I know, I always just get the snakes I like THAT I CAN AFFORD. Please dont price me out! JMHO

Either I didn't write a good post or you really misunderstood me.

I thought I said 100% hets for new things are costly, not possibles?

Even with supply and demand, which I did not want to touch since my point was that even if people were beating down breeders doors with cash they may not get what they want since many of these morphs are not really available in numbers anywhere.

Don't forget not every project gets off the ground without a lot of chaos. I have seen very promising projects go from immediate success to dead in the water due to the loss of important animals in the project, which can delay things for years.

When I say Brooksi is the snake that's the future of kingsnake morphs it is due to the consistent expansion of morph combinations over the past few years. Some of these Kings will cost a lot of money, but who knows what range they may fall in until we see them and how people react to them. I am just happy I stand a chance at producing some of them.

Rainer made the point of the rarity of the T Negative, my point was there's a long list of Florida King morphs that are not easy to find.
Sulfur
Sulfur Lav
Sulfur Snow
Jelly
White Sided Hypo
Ghost
White Sided Ghost
Bone White Hypo
Hybino
Extreme Lavenders
Flames
T Negatives
and there's more. There's all these morphs but they're not easy to find wether you are able to pay top dollar or not. Not everyone will want to take a chance on possible hets or 100% hets, but for some of these snakes that's simply all there is right now, which also makes them rare does it not? If there's a morph that is turning heads and not available, and the person who produced it is offering the only group of babies that could possibly produce it you can't expect them to price them on the low end of things, most of the time that is not the case.

However, if for example there's only one breeding pair of Outer Banks Kings on earth and the owner gets only one clutch a season I would expect those babies to be priced as high as any cutting edge morph.
Again, Rainer said people do not realize how rare one morph he spoke of is, and I am saying there's quite a few others that can be added to that comment.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tom, as usual I am not clear enough in a first post,sorry. With the long list of morphs and combos available it means that its just about impossible for anyone not dedicating 50 bins to brooksi to produce em all. There arent more than a few guys really "specializing" in brooks right now I dont think. To produce dbl and triple hets ALOT of possible hets will have to be produced before any of these multimorphs are realized at all. With the ease to keep its easy to move them in the pet trade, in the long run it might be better to do this to simply make the morphs more rare and therefore more valuable and concentrated within the few with bigger brooks collections. Its only with a bigger brooks collection can alot of these multi morphs be realized in the next say 4 years...would you agree?
I want everyone to get whatever they want for their offspring, when I respond to ads I dont haggle. But as this leans further toward the corn market I think the dynamics should attempt to mimic it because there is such a healthy corn crowd. The idea being that instead of looking for NEW INVESTORS, peace is kept and breeders stay INTO this line for the long run. Maybe this is why some guys dont go public with what they have for a whole generation first? And YES, we all know alot of projects that were lost due to both individuals as well as markets. I suggest that the t- was almost lost due to lack of market interest...which should change now with the pb allelic. But its just ONE gene, and if a gene like the WS gene can crash like it did last year it scares off anyone INCREASING new morph pricing hoping to create a new market. I would suggest there is a finite amount of $$ dedicated to brooksi each year, adding twice or 4x the number of morphs likely will not multiply this number by 2 or 4.
Just as the WS gene in holbrooki has suffered from its predicessor in brooksi, new genes are almost assuredly linked. There are guys dumping hondos and balls now but I question any attempt to try and reel in that "whale". I would market to those that have kept the ssp and bred them for years and practice trickle down economics, but thats me. I would want to see the product of my efforts appreciated and admired by my peers for all of time rather than tempt a buyout. I hope my random thoughts were in a better order this time, remember intelligent arguements like this are what this forum is great for! Thanks!

To produce dbl and triple hets ALOT of possible hets will have to be produced before any of these multimorphs are realized at all.

Not true. Not true at all. Because they are triple and quad hets you chances of producing several new morphs is far greater than working with a single recessive hets. When you have triple and quad hets everything you get is practically something new.

interest...which should change now with the pb allelic. But its just ONE gene, and if a gene like the WS gene can crash like it did last year it scares off anyone INCREASING new morph pricing hoping to create a new market. I would suggest there is a finite amount of $$ dedicated to brooksi each year, adding twice or 4x the number of morphs likely will not multiply this number by 2 or 4.

The whitesided gene held its $500. price tag for a full five (5) years before crashing. That is pretty good IMO. Also the WS gene was not bred into other morphs and it also not as interesting as the PB gene.

Just as the WS gene in holbrooki has suffered from its predicessor in brooksi, new genes are almost assuredly linked.

Not sure what you meant by this?? But if you think the WS gene is linked to the brooks just because the brooks was linked to the blackrat I think you are mistaken and should be careful about 'posting' something like this unless you have some proof.IMO the two genes don't even display the same tendencies when comparing the WS in the speck to the WS in the brooks.

....and i don't understand your talking about people having (NEEDING) a large collection of 50 brooks to produce anything and be competitive in the market:

Nothing could be further from the truth on that statement. Matter of fact the complete opposite is true so i don't know HOW you can come up with this hypothesis. NEVER has there been so many new hets and multi het homozygot morphs being offered to the public at such an early stage. Like you said most people hold onto projets like this for years before releasing them to public sale.

ANYONE getting a triple or quad het brooks right now will be producing new morphs THAT KNOWBODY HAS SEEN BEFORE! Then they will be in the lead with just a pair of snakes that they can breeding back to each other every year and keep creating new morphs and /or raise up a couple of the new morphs and breed them to one of the old reccessive traits and make newer and yet unseen multi het projects.

and as far as possible hets being offered for sale. They are dirt cheap and when you take 66% pos hets you are expidentially increasing the odds of producing a new homozygot from a TRIPLE OR QUAD POSSIBLE HET than a single recssive possible hets (which is truly only a 66% chance). With the MULTI "possible" hets being offered your odds are HUGE. I think most people make the same mistake and only think of single hets when they think of 66% possible hets and not ralizing that these are multi possible hets. i have worked with multi possible hets and everytime I hit paydirt and once those hets proved out they keep paying for themselves in the years to come. best investment in snakes period. But you need to find a spp which has sevral new morphs intergrated in it. The Brooks or Florida kings are the only ones that offer this right now. And i think they are a wise investment for anyone with just a couple hundred dollars to someone with sevral thousand dollars to invest. That is what is so great about them and that you don't need a lot to be competitive and more importantly YOU DON'T NEED A LARGE COLLECTION TO MAKE NEW MORPHS.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

POSSIBLE HETS. When bred together a trip x trip will yield more than 30 possible hets that SHOW NOTHING, and another 30 that have 1-2 genes before a single 3-gene "new" morph is realized(1/64). If you bred POSSIBLE HETS you could breed a female for a couple years before you would even know IF they were carriers!!To produce these you have to realize how quickly the possible hets will become moot. Add another gene and now its 1/128! While the law of averages says thats hundreds, no THOUSANDS(think pyramid 2/256,3/384 etc) of lesser gened snakes will be produced before this is realized. Flooding the market with these will much more likely drive the eventual price DOWN of the morph(and all brooksi) when realized. And to be the first producer you have to be a generation ahead of everyone....Thats just 4 genes, there are at least 7-8 so there will be new stuff coming for YEARS with this line if nothing more is ever discovered...
I DO think PB is a more FUN gene to work with than WS. Its not as attractive in either its adult state or as a hatchling...and the possibilities limits its usefulness mostly to breeders. It should be popular for longer than the 5 years it took to crash the WS market, but we are already year 3-4 right?
Dont get me wrong about this other thing, NO WAY is the WS gene in rats or Holbrooki related to brooks. But its the FIRST WS gene in kings that garners most of the interest, to compare the WS speckled(even if prettier)wont have the shelf life the first one had. There is even a WS Eastern Milksnake line out there...my guess is that there is only novelty interest.
My guess is you have smartly planned on working the first 3-4 genes out of your colony because of the SCOPE of this monster sized project. I think there are alot of brooksi breeders that would love your leftovers, I know I am one. But I also know that it will likely take AT LEAST a half dozen breeders keeping more than 25 adults each to just MAINTAIN the gene lines. I think it more important to keep the interest of those 6 guys than it is to garner new interest with possible hets. Possible hets may frustrate a breeder, and we know the turnover. And we have all heard the rumor for years about hets being released back around Okeechobee....We might HAVE to start releasing them there to take care of that baby burm problem,lol. Keep up the good work!

No no no..

I am offering female possible hets only. This way definite het males or visual homozygots males can be used to prove these out.

these possible triple hets are being offerred for $100. each and I am offering visual anerys and lavenders for $150. Snows are $200. And all these are possible hets for PB and T neg. That is great odds considering they already are visual for certain traits and the cost for normal females is almost as cheap as a het for nothing.

or you can buy the visuals for $1500. to $2000. each like some have.

You are not reading my ads. These are the best deals (considering the investmet and returns) in new morph history.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

Rainer, a Jelly is NOT a hybino! It shouldnt be able to produce DEFINATE hets. I see quad hets for pb/t-/lav/anery --I take it the parents are jelly x snow right? The proper probability should be 100% het lav/100% anery 50% het pb/50% het t-.
The proper % for jelly x lavender is 100% lav 50%pb/50% T-.
The definate QUAD hets look to be from a jelly x ghost so it should be 100% het anery/100% het hypo/50% het pb/50% het T-...FAR from DEFINATE hets....
Now I am just using the known traits you have posted, and figured your "definate hets" were made by a Jelly....Now the Jelly x Jelly is an important link to all these possibilities. The Jelly morph is the dbl het from T- x PB right? So if Jelly x Jelly results in a 25/25/25/25 ratio of pb/jelly/t-/new HYBINO morph then my punet square applies. If they produce all Jelly then this is basically a dead end gene that kills both the pb and the T- gene. Of course you can add it to the other genes(anery/ws) to make still more morphs...but crossing it to either pb/T- should yield only jellies.
To prove any of these poss het females you have for sale you need males of the individual morph and you will likely only be able to reproduce THAT morph. The selling point of hets made with Jellys is the PB gene and the T- gene....but its only a 50% POSSIBLE HET to have each of these! And as each of these poss hets from a triple het x triple het breeding has a 66% chance to have each ONE of these genes. For every 64 offspring there will be 27 normal looking and only 8/27 will be triple het, thats only 30%. So if you look at it another way instead of thinking you have a 66% chance at getting BOTH genes, you will have a 33% chance.
As you can see from the numbers that buying possible hets from a triple(or quad)breeding is a fiscal crapshoot til the Jelly is proved. It is likely a gateway gene, but the wrong morph to use if you want to produce QUAD hets. Its not 1/256 that would be a quad homozygous morph---but 1/512. I dont know how many females you will need to produce 512 babies, but its ALOT. And at this point POSSIBLE hets really suck! LOL.

I'm just kind of curious how one simple recessive gene (peanut butter) could cause a "dead end" for another (Tneg) or that the two together - if in fact allelic as is suspected - could cause a dead end for either.

I can't wait to see the results of jelly x jelly. I'm guessing 25% amel, 25% pb, 50% jelly. May or may not be able to reliably distinguish the jelly from homo pb.

I get different punnet for jelly x jelly than you get - I don't get 25% 25% 25% 25%

I don't know how to make tables here, so here's an image:

If they are not allelic - but for whatever reasons (like in some Cal King double hets) you can see double hets that ordinarily are recessive by themselves, that would be a really neat discovery.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Its a simple punet from 2 known recessives. Jellies should be considered dbl hets for these intents and purposes...
AB Ab aB ab
AB-AABB AABb AaBB AaBb
Ab-AABb AAbb AaBb Aabb
aB-AaBB AaBb aaBB aaBb
ab-AaBb Aabb aaBb aabb
AABB (actually 1/16 my mistake on previous)represents the new HYBINO morph(potentially)
AaBB(3/16) represents PB
AABb(3/16) represents T-
AaBb(4/16) represents JELLY(dbl hets)
aabb(1/16 represents NOTHING---which may not be possible either

The interesting thing is that when put together COULD be a dominant trait....thats what made me think about as a Dominant x dbl het(25/25/25/25). And the jelly form could also block additional modifiers....time will tell. What could really mess things up is both the variability and sexual dimorphism, sorry for the confusion.

Here's a punnet square for ghost cross jelly if jelly and pb are allelic.

All possible outcomes are triple hets, which I believe is what bluerosy was saying:

Jelly x Ghost

Pairing those triple hets would produce some interesting results, especially pairing a triple het with one that displays one or more of the morphs (IE triple het x homo axanthic het hypo het (pb or amel).

Have any Jelly x Jelly and/or Jelly x Tneg Amel pairings hatched yet?
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Ghost is simply hypo x anery(dbl homozygous morph)
Jelly is t- x PB(double HETEROzygous morph)
SO, its a QUAD het but only 50% POSSIBLE HETS from the Jelly. Do a 4 gene punet and divide by 2(1/512 not 1/256). Just because the gene is allelic does not mean it passes both simultaneously...and if it does that means the jelly morph basically locks out the T- and PB genes from being split.Rainer is waiting for the jelly x jelly(as we all are now,lol)and I think jelly x pb....The gene genie is coming out of the bottle...

My punnet squares are based on the assumption that PB and Tneg are mutations of the same wild type allele, and occupy the same locus.

IE - it is impossible for a snake to be homozygous for both PB and Tneg. It is impossible for a snake to be homozygous PB and het Tneg. It is impossible for a snake to be homozygous Tneg and het PB.

With a snake that is het for both, it actually is a single het - not a double het - because both alleles occupy the same locus.

Until we see what happens with jelly x jelly or jelly x Tneg - my assumption is just an assumption, but that's the way it works in corns with Ultra and Amel.

So while an axanthic (or anery) X hypo results in a double het because they are mutations at different locus from each other - if Peanut Butter and Tneg are at the same locus, there would actually only be one heterozygous gene pair - containing 1 PB allele and 1 Tneg allele.

There is precedence for visual double hets where single hets are ordinarily non visual in Cal Kings (I would love to see more testing of that, btw - to see a visual amel that proves to be het lavender) but that's the exception rather than the rule, which is why I *assume* that Tneg and PB are mutations of the same wild type gene at the same locus.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

From the Jelly x Jelly? From Jelly x pb?

Assuming they are allelic

Jelly X Jelly - I would expect:
25% PB
25% Tneg
50% Jelly

It may not be possible to reliably differentiate PB from Jelly (if PB is dominant or partially dominant to amel)

PB x Jelly -
50% PB and 50% Jelly

There should be no normals produced in either case if they are allelic.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Have any Jelly x Jelly and/or Jelly x Tneg Amel pairings hatched yet?

No not yet. I had some more F1 jellies from breeding a PB to T- and I had eggs hatch today from the jelly x whitesided x Peanut buetter het. The same pairing that produced a Pewter and a WS last year. This time i got normals, Peanut butter and jellies from trhat pairing.

So it seems that breeding a Jelly to a PB will result in PB's and Jellies being born.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

Rainer, a Jelly is NOT a hybino!

I never said a jelly was a hybino. A hybino is a lav x hypo and a Peabino is a double homo PB x Lavender.

But I think what you meant is that the jelly was not produced the same way as a hybino. Meaning there were never any hets produced to breed back and create a double homo. But that does not mean that both the traits are not active .

I beleive the jelly to have both traits since breeding a PB het to a Jelly will produce both jellies and PB's. Heck it might even be a 5 way thing going on rather than just a 4 way quad.

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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

Rainer, I know this is your baby, sorry if I get a little carried away with the genetics a bit....to me its FUN. That said, I want to clarify HYBINO. There is LAV HYBINO, there is LAV PEABINO but as yet in brooks there has been NO HYBINO and what jelly x jelly SHOULD produce would be a T-(red eye albino) PEABINO--the double homo recessive from the f1 parents.
The good news in your and Zennys breedings is that both PBs and jellies in the same clutch almost assuredly makes my hypothesis of a gene-killer moot. But the real proof will be when a T- or a TRUE PEABINO is hatched from your clutch. This should relegate Jelly to an intermediate morph form....and in this mans opinion equal or less value to the PB/T- because it is only a het form to produce either morph---meaning that they will produce 50% less morphs than their "true" cousins.

Yes money is important to me but I am working on these multi morph projects with this in mind. I am one of those guys who has quite a few Brooksi, and I will be getting more too haha!. However I know most people won't take it half as far as I do, and they may not be able to afford what they want for years after the newer morphs hit the market. Many people are aspiring breeders but on a hobbyist level, I encourage this as it is fun, can be profitable and I do not fear them as future competition. Matter of fact I chewed out a few customers who have some nice snakes that chose not to breed them this year, I really want to see them produce some babies and know that I helped them get to where they are now.
The thing is with these genetically overloaded hets and morphs that are het for other morphs, people have a chance to buy a single pair of snakes, that's it, just ONE pair of snakes and produce 7 or more morphs. For people who like morphs, this is a lot of fun, especially when you do not know how many of what kind of morph will be in the clutches.
Another thing is in my opinion only the White Side hit a point of over production. I see a lot of people selling snakes who do not make much an effort to get other sinterested in their animals. I had the pleasure of visiting Tim Gebhards house and when I saw his stock, meaning everything he worked with I suddenly wanted everything he worked with in my own collection. I have had this happen when people see what I have to offer, and that's just it. Just like Corns, Brooksi can be addicting and many people like a lot of the morphs and end up getting several different kinds.
I had people tell me on the phone they'd never buy any Pits. After seeing them in person and especially after holding one many of them not only bought one, but "got into" Pits and have several now.
If you must discuss investing, I still say there's a small safety net hanging under this market. Yes the economy sux n all but even though I know more breeders now than I did 8 years ago, there's still not a lot of people to buy the new things from yet. Like I said, in some cases things will go wrong. In a Pit project this year which had seen success in previous years I lost an important male over winter. I have 5 females in that project and used a young male produced in this project that should have been ready. He bombed, 5 clutches of slugs....I think it's safe to say he was not ready yet. Thinsg happen. Even when they go well, it still may mean there's just not many of the new morphs to go around.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I would like to add that the only brooksi I have seen at the Sacramento show in last two years are normal, lavender (labeled albino but they are not T-), axanthic, and normal hets for those two.

Sacramento isn't a huge show - but it isn't a small show either.

There could of course be brooks I didn't see - but there couldn't have been too many I didn't see.

I did see T- Easterns. I did see some goini. The only Cal King gene I didn't see was ghost, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were there.

I do think it is very accurate to say that most of the brooksi morphs are very rare. Pictures get posted a lot, but the morphs are not there in quantity yet.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

I think you are referring to hybridized Calif king albino crossed into Florida kings.

As far as i know theese are the very first TRUE puer T negative Floridana ever. I know some people crossed amelanistic Calif kings into Florida kings years ago but that is not what these are.

I posted a history on these several times before. Maybe i need to do it again.

Pewter

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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

I know the Culotta's had t- albinos about 12-15 years ago. Maybe they were crossed into cal kings too....as its suspected the t . Chris tried to get me into them a while back, and I should have taken them as he left alot of people being owed animals.....

southern reptiles was a known hybridizer. They did the hypo pueblin (from honduran) and other crosses.

After the owner died his son came clean and told me what they were doing. Why do you think they originated so many recessive traits? It was not from breeding new stock back to each other. It was from careful and secret planning to create new morphs by back breeding two gens and then picking the ones that most looked like the target parent species.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

>>The t-'s have been around for more than 10 years
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>>I think you are referring to hybridized Calif king albino crossed into Florida kings.
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>>As far as i know theese are the very first TRUE puer T negative Floridana ever. I know some people crossed amelanistic Calif kings into Florida kings years ago but that is not what these are.
>>
>>I posted a history on these several times before. Maybe i need to do it again.
>>

The T-'s HAVE been around for 10 years and were labled white albino brooksi. Bill Corwin was producing them 10 years ago and sold them for $100 ea. I think it was a joint partnership with Lloyd Lemke until Lloyd passed away. I first saw them advertised in Reptile and Amphibian magazine....if I recall correctly, back when people still looked at classifieds in reptile magazines. I know it was well before I had internet and that was not until 1999. There's a little bit of history on them. I also know what the remaining adults sold for......only because I missed them by a few minutes.

Brandon
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Brandon,

The babies sold for $1000. each and not $100.ea. At least that is what i paid for them from Bill Corwin.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

hhhh

This actually pisses me off
"""They will always have room at the table in any discussion because of the numbers of morphs and multi morphs but to suggest that supply/demand will change the whole market is a bit short sighted I think"""

When did I say this??? Who said anything will change the whole market?
I was making the point many morphs people see pictures on this forum are just not easy to find,

Your comments seems to be throwing a bunch of negative opinions about these snakes and why you'd want to do that is just not making any sense to me. So I say they're rare and you're saying what? They're not worth much?
I am going to stick with posting pictures
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tom you should change directions and get into $2K wild caught monster milks. Ken

Ken, some species people will pay extra for.....and some they wont. Historically, eastern milks and florida kings are a couple of these because they can still easily be had WC. The price of CB brooks reflects how easy they are to breed, same with CB Milks.

Tom, its just one man's opinion. You are one of the good guys and I didnt mean to rile you up. Sorry,Jeff

Apology accepted, I just realized after Rainers post that a lot people may think they can find some of these snakes fairly easily and that is just not the case, actually it may not be the case for several more years.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

With the jelly x jelly/jelly x pb breedings you can tell us if the jelly is indeed the intermediate phase to a new "hybino" morph or if its a "trait-killer" gene. There arent enough t-'s around as you say, and though its a neat gene the jelly could essentially "suffocate out" the t- if your theory is correct. Lastly, what will you name the new morph when/if it shows?