Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi Steve,

What about your Eastern eggs? I thought I read that you had a couple clutches.

I haven't tried perlite but I know of its physical properties very certainly. I have encountered other people like Mike Meade for example that have lost eggs on it, and I have posted on the IF forum about why this has happened. I am surprised that you have had success with it. I won't go near it. It doesn't move water toward the eggs by cappillary flow like vermiculite does, and Indigo eggs can dry out. It also doesn't make close physical contact with the eggs. The eggs dimple from underneath where it isn't noticeable until it is too late.

Indigo eggs need to be in physical contact with a moist medium during the second half of the incubation. The high metabolic rate of the baby snake inside the egg causes the eggs to be at a higher temperature than the surroundings, and they can dry out by transpiration as a result, even in 100% humidity. This is why we see so much condensation on the insides of the egg containers.

I would like to know how you got perlite to work when others have had bad results (with Indigo eggs).

Robert.

Robert, you are correct, I lost Texas Indigo eggs on perlite last year. This year I went back to vermiculite. I started with a 0.75:1 ratio of water:vermiculite and after the first 2 months I moved them to a fresh mix of vermiculite at the same ratio rather than guessing how much water to add to replace what had been lost/absorbed.

I reckon I have 2-4 weeks left of incubation and am seeing condensation on the walls and top of the container the eggs are in with no signs of collapse. We'll see how it goes, but I think this year is going to be better.

I didn't have any problems with the vermiculite before switching, so I guess I broke the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule. I would advise anyone who is having success with perlite to stay with perlite, but watch for the eggs collapsing at the bottom (and looking great on top).

It seems everyone is back to vermiculite or perlite.

Wasn't it the rage a couple years ago to just suspend the eggs over water with some sort of plastic grid? I used that technique once and it worked fine.

Doug T

You are right Doug, it was, and with the tortoise breeders as well. On Sighthunters suggestion, I am trying coconut coire, available in compressed bricks, and I am liking it so far with kingsnake and tortoise eggs. I never really had a problem with vermiculite, and I had good luck with perlite, though I take Robert Bruces's precautions seriously. D. Allesandrini suggest clean towels, dampened. Point is, lots of things work, I think getting healthy eggs (which seem to be fungi resistant) is harder than incubating. That was the first comment I have heard about hatchrite...any other opinions? vic h.

i use the alessandrini approach, have for a long time. i place the eggs on dampened paper towels & occasionally mist lightly. never a problem w/ this method. the substrate is really not the issue, it's the humidity surrounding the eggs that's important.....

I thought Dean used underwear. Oh well...

I hope Robert will chime back in on the humidity being all they need issue. When I lost last year's clutch (all but one) of Texans the enclosure was very humid with condensation dropping from the lid. I originally assumed they were too moist (this was on perlite).

My understanding of what Robert said at the time is that the embryos are large enough in the last month to generate heat that prevents the warmer eggs from removing air from the cooler air which results in the condensation on the lid and sides of the container. Thus humidity doesn't help, the eggs need to be in contact with moisture.

Dean's method and your adaptation would both result in moisture being in contact with the egg.

Indigo eggs are obviously different than turtle eggs and other snake eggs for that matter. Is there anyone who has used the tray above water technique with indigos?

Robert, please correct/refine my version of your theory. I tend to think Robert is correct because he described what happened to my eggs very accurately.

Anyway, this is an interesting and valuable discussion and I encourage anyone with experiences good or bad to add to it.

mike, actually the paper towels are practically dry at incubation's end as i only slightly mist the sides of the container once in awhile. i'll get a fogginess on the sides of the container but at no time do the lids ever drip excess condensation. that would seem to me to indicate excessive wetness which is certainly not desirable. if i see eggs denting up, i mist a bit, if i don't, i leave well enough alone. i keep the process as simple as possible & try not to get too involved.....

Hi Robert,
It's good to see you back at the ranch. Funny (not really) you should ask about Easterns. One clutched recently hatched out great - 2.6, all perfect. Second clutch all died in the egg. Looked like all were at the same point of development, fully formed and colored, about half hatchling size, with much egg material remaining. No kinks observed. A Texas clutch has hatched - 2.6 and a clutch of one rubidus hatched out as a female. A remaining clutch of 4 Texas remains at 95 days. Rather than dimple in, one of those eggs has swollen out at bottom. Each clutch has been in its own box of perlite, just resting on the surface. Perlite is about 4 in. deep and air space above is the same. I added water to each container at time it was set up. Didn't add any again. Last year using vermiculite I felt eggs were too damp. Several swelled up at bottom and a couple of those burst. One of the swollen ones apparently sealed up and eventually hatched OK. I recall Robert Seib posting indigos hatching out on perlite a few years ago. Maybe he has some thoughts on this. Until I lost Eastern clutch I was ready to invest in perlite stock. Now I don't know. Remaining Texas clutch looks really good. Maybe it will have a tale to tell. If it comes out predominantly female that will make me wonder some more. Anyone's thoughts on this would be appreciated.

This forum also needs a detailed discussion on diet supplements breeders may be using to enhance egg fertility, reduce occurences of females becoming eggbound, and overall health of individuals in the captive Drymarchon populations. More on this soon.

Second clutch of Texas eggs hatched OK: 2.2 big babies, each with a large egg meal. I would like to hear any other thoughts on using perlite to incubate eggs. Photo is a bifurcated Texas hatchling from a few years ago. Was dead in the egg.