Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all,
Question about some genetics. I know females can store several viable sperm packets from several males. An example may be a pastel female bred to a spider, lesser, and mojave with all in the clutch. What about multiple genes within the dominant realm. If the spider male is het albino or the mojave is het ghost, would those carry over as possibly being het to the offspring? A better scenario would be if the pastel was het ghost and/or het albino. Would the offspring that show the co dom trait and be het/homo, ie. spider or mojave possibly be het or visual in one generation? Maybe spider albinos or hypo mojaves. I hope that wasn't too confusing.

thanks

I'm no expert. So this information may not be entirely accurate, and I apologize.

But I'm fairly sure that co-dominant traits and simple dominant/recessive traits are controlled by entirely different alleles. However, they're of course contained within the same sperm. The reason that sometimes you can get multiple traits in one clutch is because of sperm retention. Different sperm fertilize different eggs-- the alleles don't jump over.

To clarify... if you bred a pastel female to a spider het ghost male and a mojave het piebald, there's no way you're going to get a bumblebee het for piebald. You COULD, however, get a bumblebee het for ghost.

I'm not sure if that's what you were asking. Either way, all offspring would be 50% poss. het.

...I hope this helped. I also hope my year of genetics didn't give me bad info. Tosha or anybody can contradict me if they want.

-K

I figured they wouldn't jump but I wasn't sure if the same connected genetic qualities spider het ghost would go with the sperm. So essentially you could make a gene appear within the offspring, if I'm reading that right. Example: Pastel het ghost female bred to a spider het ghost male and pastel male, you could end up with a ghost bumblebee--assuming they are all expressed with one animal?

thanks a bunch for the info

Pastel het ghost female x spider het ghost male would give you I believe a 25% chance of a bumblebee ghost. ...I've forgotten what that's called at the moment, sorry for the blank.

If only one of the parents were het for ghost you would have 0% chance of a visual recessive, and 50% of the offspring being heterozygous for the recessive trait.

Hopefully this is helping you out? Sorry if I'm missing the mark.

-K

I'm following and what I was hoping was the response.

thanks again for your insight

I think a pastel het ghost x spider het ghost would give you a 6.25% chance of a bumblebee ghost not a 25% chance. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.....
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1.0 Columbian RTB
1.0 Orange Ghost BP
1.0.3 Mojave BP
0.1 Fire BP
0.1 Spider BP
4.2 Pastel BP
1.0 100% Het Pied BP
1.1 100% Het Caramel BP
1.0 100% Het Albino BP
0.1 100% Het Orange Ghost BP
0.1 Mudd Slide BP (50% het alb)
0.9.1 Normal BP - (2 - 66% het alb, 2 - 50% het pied)
0.0.6 Eggs in the incubator

np

If the female is bred to different males in different seasons, you'd get (assuming no sperm carryover) the following:

Pastel het ghost female X spider het ghost male -->
3/16 normal looking, 66% probability het ghost
1/16 ghost
3/16 spider 66% probability het ghost
1/16 spider ghost
3/16 pastel 66% probability het ghost
1/16 pastel ghost
3/16 pastel spider (bumblebee) 66% probability het ghost
1/16 pastel spider ghost (ghost bumblebee)

Pastel het ghost female X pastel male -->
1/4 normal looking 50% probability het ghost
2/4 pastel 50% probability het ghost
1/4 homozygous pastel (AKA super pastel) 50% probability het ghost

If the female is bred to both males in the same breeding season, all the babies could be sired by the first male, all the babies could be sired by the second male, or some could be sired by each male. Depending on the parents, all, some or none of the babies can be assigned to the right father. In this one, it's some. Normal-looking babies and pastel babies appear in both matings. You can figure out the right father for all babies except the normal looking babies and the pastels.

By the way, alleles are different versions of the same basic gene. So pastel and its normal version are alleles, spider and its normal version are alleles, ghost and its normal version are alleles, etc. If the lesser platinum and mojave mutant genes can form a gene pair, as seems likely, then they are alleles, too. But the ghost and pastel mutant genes are not alleles, and neither is an allele of the spider mutant gene. The spider, pastel, and ghost mutant genes are probably in different chromosomes. So the three mutants have no more physical connection than a diamond in a bracelet, a ruby in a necklace, and a chunk of coral in an earring that all happen to be in the same jewelry box.

See the link for basic biology of genes and chromosomes.
Handbook of Genetics

I completely understand the first part and agree with your answers. I was more looking for an answer (maybe I missed it) on not whether who came from which father but if the multi genes carried over.

Pastel female het ghost x 1. Spider Male het albino
2. Pastel
3. Woma het ghost

Any spider would be from male #1 and would be poss het albino and ghost
Any pastel could be from either female or male#2 and could be poss het albino, poss het ghost
Any ghost or pastel ghost would be from male#3
Any woma would be poss het ghost (66%) but not poss bet albino
Any bumblebees would be poss het albino

The normals would have to be sold as 50% poss DH albino (although it may be 66% but you can't see)

I just wanted to know if you can visually tell who the father is, like the spider, then anything spider would be poss het albino, correct?

thanks and good reply

np

herby07, you are making this far more complicated than it needs to be. Paul Hollander gave you a pretty good answer. I will try to clarify further - as best as I can understand what it is that you are asking.

You asked:
"Pastel female het ghost x
1. Spider Male het albino
2. Pastel
3. Woma het ghost
...
The normals would have to be sold as 50% poss DH albino (although it may be 66% but you can't see)

I just wanted to know if you can visually tell who the father is, like the spider, then anything spider would be poss het albino, correct?"

Any Spider offspring would definitely be from male #1, and therefore would also be 50% possible het Ghost (from the dam) and 50% possible het Albino
Any Bumblebees would also definitely be from male #1, and therefore 50% possible het Ghost (dam) and 50% possible het Albino
Any Pastel offspring could be from any of the three listed sires – so you would only know that they are 50% possible het Ghost from their dam
Any Super Pastel offspring would have to have been sired by male #2, but are still only 50% possible het Ghost, which is from the dam
Any Ghost or Pastel Ghost offspring would have to have been sired by male #3, and therefore no possibility of het Albino
Any Woma offspring would have to have been sired by male #3, and therefore 66% possible het Ghost, no possibility of het Albino

Normals CANNOT be ruled 50% possible DH Albino & Ghost, as you would have no way to confirm that male #1 is the sire.

In a perfect world...
Normals sired by male #1 would generally be considered 50% possible DH’s.
Normals sired by male #2 aren’t hiding anything unless they inherited it from their dam.
Normals sired by male #3 would generally be considered 66% het Ghost.

…However, since there is NO WAY for you to tell which Normals were sired by which of your males, any Normal offspring could in fact be sired by any one of your three listed males, and therefore, the only thing you know about them is what these hatchlings are inheriting from their dam: 50% possible het Ghost.

And this strikes me as a pretty good reason to stick to just pairing one male with any given female for the breeding season!

I hope this helped.

~Rebecca
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1.0.0 Dumeril's Boa '04
1.1.1 Ball Pythons
[1.0.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1.0 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

I'm making this any harder than you are. It really wasn't a difficult question to begin with. You are saying the exact same thing I am, I'm just not spelling it out. I did make an error when I gave the normals a percentage of 50% (that's what I get for trying to do things before closing time). They can't be considered poss hets as there wouldn't be a direct marker to who the father was. To be honest, I already knew the answer and am very familiar with genetics, I was just trying to see how people would respond.

thanks, however, for your response

herby07, you are making this far more complicated than it needs to be. Paul Hollander gave you a pretty good answer. I will try to clarify further - as best as I can understand what it is that you are asking.

You asked:
"Pastel female het ghost x
1. Spider Male het albino
2. Pastel
3. Woma het ghost
...
The normals would have to be sold as 50% poss DH albino (although it may be 66% but you can't see)

I just wanted to know if you can visually tell who the father is, like the spider, then anything spider would be poss het albino, correct?"

Any Spider offspring would definitely be from male #1, and therefore would also be 50% possible het Ghost (from the dam) and 50% possible het Albino
Any Bumblebees would also definitely be from male #1, and therefore 50% possible het Ghost (dam) and 50% possible het Albino
Any Pastel offspring could be from any of the three listed sires – so you would only know that they are 50% possible het Ghost from their dam
Any Super Pastel offspring would have to have been sired by male #2, but are still only 50% possible het Ghost, which is from the dam
Any Ghost or Pastel Ghost offspring would have to have been sired by male #3, and therefore no possibility of het Albino
Any Woma offspring would have to have been sired by male #3, and therefore 66% possible het Ghost, no possibility of het Albino

Normals CANNOT be ruled 50% possible DH Albino & Ghost, as you would have no way to confirm that male #1 is the sire.

In a perfect world...
Normals sired by male #1 would generally be considered 50% possible DH’s.
Normals sired by male #2 aren’t hiding anything unless they inherited it from their dam.
Normals sired by male #3 would generally be considered 66% het Ghost.

…However, since there is NO WAY for you to tell which Normals were sired by which of your males, any Normal offspring could in fact be sired by any one of your three listed males, and therefore, the only thing you know about them is what these hatchlings are inheriting from their dam: 50% possible het Ghost.

And this strikes me as a pretty good reason to stick to just pairing one male with any given female for the breeding season!

I hope this helped.

~Rebecca

"can't be considered 50% poss hets" is what was meant