Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Yeah, I certainly am not condemning anybody for having wild caughts, all CBs came from wild caught stock at some point even if several generations back, but I certainly wouldn't condone or recomend it either, if the choice is available, especially in states that wild collection is illegal. Whats odd or maybe "wrong" as pointed to in another post this week is that the wild caughts do in fact seem to be more readily available, than CB, I guess more people need to breed, although I think a big part of the equation is the rediculously antiquated 4" turtle law scares a lot of people away from breeding and selling their CBB offspring, along with other rediculous laws that discourage captive breeding programs, but that is a whole nother' can o'worms, of course there is always "adoption", but beyond that maybe it comes down to ethics, this spring I bought a pair of what were advertised as captive raised 3-toes assuming that meant they were born and raised in captivity, I did this because I desperately wanted a male to breed my CB females that I have raised since new born hatchlings, of course then a month later my neighbor shows up with a big old male that I ended up putting with them anyway. Now while they might have been raised most of their life in the sellers captivity,(maybe that is true) but they sure look wild caught to me, and thus quite frankly I have felt a little ashamed and guilty about aquiring them, because I may very well have unintentionally (or ignorantly depending how you want look at it) supported harvest of wild caughts. Now at the same time they are used as speed bumps and people intentionally hit them and they are splattered all over the roads every spring in a state near mine, so I'm not sure if harvesting wild caughts there would make much of a difference in their populations demise. However I personally don't think that I will buy another adult again unless I was very, very certain they were indeed CBB, but that is just were my personal ethics are right now on the subject, everybody has to set their own respectively. I know for a fact that 7 out of 9 of my boxies are CBB, the two rescently aquired are 'iffy" at best, I liked it better when it was 7 out of 7 CBB for sure. I'm not saying wild caught is wrong and needs to be abolished, if you want to be a purist conservationist, you would need to stop all house and road building and driving, but we don't live in "that world". You just have to ask yourself do I "need" a wild caught? or do I "need" to pick up that boxie? or can I find another way to aquire one if I want to keep one. My goal with my boxie project is to raise up any CBBs and sell or give away older 4"+ ones to people that want to keep them,(especially a kid with parental support to help care for them, you should see the excitement of my neighbors boy, and I remember the excitment when my parents got me a boxie for xmas when I was a kid) and keep raising up new breeders and keep turning them over to continue the breeding and raising process. That's my humble oppinion and if I am wrong, i'm wrong, but I have to live with it. Sorry for the long post I guess I needed to get this one off my chest.
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

You know, in most states, you CAN give away turtles under 4". And, if you're not "in connection with a business", i.e. hobbyists, you can sell turtles under 4" legally. I'll try to find the FDA memo that says "fanciers" can sell turtles under 4".

Katrina

Katrina,
I did not know that, and I would be very interested to see that fed. exclusion for "fanciers" if you would please post that, thanks in advance.
There are a lot of loopholds, and variances from state to state, and variablility of enforcement and a local, state, and federal level, ect ect.
It just seems like the current situation in the pet turtle industry isn't very effective at curbing wild caught and encouraging and promoting competitive CBB.
Maybe some would argue that non-commercial harvesting of wild boxies doesn't have any major impact, but I don't believe that is the current concensus.
Perhaps the bigger issue aside from the legalities lies in the nature of the species and the nature of our species wanting instant gratification and not wanting to wait 7 years for a big pretty breeder adult, myself included, and the appeal of easy money, walking through the woods picking up hundred dollar bills, so again maybe the only real nutralizer of instant gratification is ethics.
It's too bad the darn things don't mature in 1 year and lay dozens of egg, they'd be as common as corn snakes, but you gotta' love 'em don't ya', they're special, so then you have to start thinking about conserving and preserving.
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

How were you able to tell WC from CB?
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2 Taricha granulosa
1 male Terrapane carolina carolina
10 gal. tropical fish tank.

I suppose i'm just making an educated guess, but when the shells are worn slick and have various punctures and scratches and chips it's not likely that they were captive raised for the last 20 yrs in near wild captive conditions with an occational predator mauling and then all of a sudden one day the owner decided to sell, but I suppose they could be CB, but they weren't advertised as CB but rather captive raised and I failed to see the difference, which was my bad. Let me make it very clear I am by no means faulting the seller or acusing false advertising, In fact I just reviewed the emails and the seller clearly stated that "they were originally wild caught but had been in his care for quite some time now" and I didn't listen or didn't care or both, so it's my own darn fault. And I am not condemning wild caught or sellers or wild caughts, I am just saying for me personally it's not something I wish to support, I would prefer to support captive breeders, every single reptile in my care in my house was either raised from a CB hatching or born in my house, except for those two and it just doesn't set right with me, so I'm not sure I want to keep them, but I don't know that getting rid of them is the right thing to do either. I'm really just kind of sick about it and not sure what to do at this point. Well at least maybe someone out there reading this can learn from my mistake.
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

It's hard sometimes to have enough cb boxies, because of idiotic state laws. In Texas you can own 6 boxies personally, but cannot sell any, cb or otherwise, since last fall. They say they are working on a permit for selling cb, but my suspicion is that is just another way to get into our wallets.

I didn't think the selling ban applied to the hobbist though. I think it only pertains to "businesses." I could be wrong, but that's what I thought. And I'm pretty sure it's six of each subspecies, so six of Eastern, six of Three-Toed, etc.

Agreed, "getting into our wallets". What would a permit prove or what proof would be required for permit, how would a permit change anything exept make less profitable to sell CBB, which again discourages people from even bothering.
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

I was partially right. TPWD said it is legal in Texas for individuals to own up to six of each subspecies, although it is illegal to sell any, including hatchlings. Also, they said they are proposing, like you said, to allow the sale of captive bred box turtles as long as the brood stock was acquired from out of state sources with proper documentation.

Which leaves me with two questions, and I preface with saying everyone had these questions and were left scratching their heads when the proposal was passed last fall:

The state allows you to have up to, say, six Eastern box turtles but expects them not to breed and if, God forbid the act of nature takes place, they do and hatchlings emerge, you can't sell them. So either way you're out of compliance.

Second question, if this new proposal is approved, you have to some how prove the turtles you breed are from out of state? So where does that leave do-gooders who adopt turtles from individuals? Do you ask for a receipt of adoption? This state is so backwards it's ridiculous. Making it hard on the hobbyist to pass along captive-bred turtles, like Jeff has been saying, only further discourages people from leaving wild turtles be wild.

"The state allows you to have up to, say, six Eastern box turtles but expects them not to breed and if, God forbid the act of nature takes place, they do and hatchlings emerge, you can't sell them. So either way you're out of compliance."

You could give the hatchlings away. And you could always house adults separately to avoid 'acts of nature'. Or you could simply destroy any eggs before they even start to develop.

In other words you can be in compliance, but it would take more effort and planning, and you would not be able to profit monetarily from any windfall hatchlings. But you certainly do have options.

We could all be of assistance to law makers by taking a more active part in the process. For example, by contacting legislators *before* things are passed into law and pointing out potential flaws, etc.

My underestanding is that you have to notify TPWD by November 2008 of your current collection and they will be grandfathered in and you can then be eligible for the captive breeders permit at some time in the future. (meaning whenever they decide they need to steal more money from us)

I aquired my first three toed box turtle almost a decade ago from a sleazy pet shop that has since went under. Yes, he was WC, but I felt like since they were going under there wouldn't be more to replace him and he was in a tank with dead turtles, so as much as I'm usually against pet store rescues, I did it. I took him to the vet and while it took some time for me to educate myself on proper care, he's pretty happy these days.
After we moved, he got a bigger enclosure outside for the summer and he's very needy & social (he stops eating when I go away for vacation,) so I felt guilty about leaving him outside by himself, if no one's there to talk to him, he tends to bury himself. I know they are solitary animals in the wild, but after reading some info, I know that captivity can be a little different.
I found it hard to find a CB buddy for him and while looking found another not really great, long established, local store that carries box turtles, but everytime I went in, half were sick, they were kept in deplorable conditions and I couldn't justify purchasing these animals being abducted from thier natural habitat. They are kept in tiny cubicles, piled on top of one another, frequently there's no water or it's dirty, I rarely see food and there is barely any substrate. It's been like this FOR YEARS. I don't know how many of the turtles survive, but they just keep shipping in more. Everytime I asked about the sick or injured, I was told they were "just in," or my favorite "donated" and they came that way.

Happily, last time I went in desperation for something I couldn't find elsewhere, the manager stated they are no longer going to sell or carry box turtles...wooohooo! On that note, I didn't feel guilty grabbing one girl, knowing that he didn't care where his stock went and frankly she's lucky to come home with me. My guy's pretty happy to finally have the company and they hang out together, but I think this happy ending is truly unusual for WC animals.

I think those who support WC animals need to take into consideration how many of these WC animals end up in bad conditions being sold to ignorant pet owners on a whim. It's really sad and disgusting to see endangered animals piled on top of each other, in filthy, small living conditions...half of them sick. How many people who buy these poor creatures actually are here on the board trying to find and provide the best care? Not many, I assure you. If people want the "right" to WC animals and to breed them, I think they should be the same ones who make an effort to be responsible and shut places like these pet stores down or make sure there are some sort of regulations that prevent them from being given inadequete care or sold without proper education. It's very selfish to only want opportunity for yourself and then think of these other animals suffering as "not my problem."
I would have much preferred a CB companion or if I was originally educated and looking for a pet in the first place, I would have purchased a CB animal, sadly they don't seem to be as prevelant as those sad guys cruelly abducted & then sold like widgets. Hopefully someone who will take the time to breed them when it's more expensive and less for profit than for the love of the actual animals will at least provide a minimum of decent care these animal's deserve.