Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The spider wobble is... interesting. I know that the common theory is that it's caused because of inbreeding. But what if that's not entirely it? If at any point I sound like an idiot here, I apologize. I don't have a whole lot of genetics knowledge, but certainly enough to allow me to understand the basic genetics of balls.

Now... as far as I know there hasn't ever been a distinct super spider produced. I could be wrong there. This could be because maybe there isn't a difference between the spider and the super spider, but it could also be because the homozygous spider form is lethal before birth.

If that's the case, could the spider morph actually be less-than-healthy for snakes, the super causing death, the single causing a wobble? Have they been around long enough to document a possibly shortened life span or something?

If I'm completely off-base, please let me know. At this point I'm just curious.

Thanks all--

-K

That is an interesting theory... I'm certainly no expert-- I know less than you do about genetics beyond the basics. I know theres lots of people doing spider x spider this season, but I've not heard anything about it yet... I do know that there's a "pearl" and its a morph that doesn't live past neo-nate stage.... so it is entirely possible.

Who knows-- hopefully one of the big boys will get in on this one...

~Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

The first import spiders were wobblers as are many imports -- so unless they were all inbreeding in the wild -- then it's not a likely theory. That spiders are probably one of the most outbred snakes in the industry and they still wobble also points to it not being an inbreeding issue.

As far as longevity -- last time it was brought up Kevin said he still had the originals in his collection. Whether they will live 30 years we will just have to wait and see. Being that they are breeder snakes I doubt it -- I don't think heavily bred snakes live that long but that's JMO.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

Have there been more imported spiders? For some reason I thought it was just the one founder.

Don't know how old that one was when brought in but I think it's been close to 20 years now. My oldest snake is 12 (I think, not sure on another). Hard to know how the nearly 50 year record zoo animal compares to wild. Maybe they die younger if not breed.

But I agree, one thing spiders are not is inbred. Your average spider might be more outbred than your average import. Many quick generations of young males moving from breeder to breeder each using their own big normal females mostly from random African exporters vs. an animal whose ancestors might have been circling the same termite mound for generations.

our spider has a twist to her.
was the only survivor of a twin egg.
born 10/23/07, weighed 47g's post shed.
last weighed on 06/29/08, checked in at 1206g's.
unhealthy ? not from where i sit.
still twisting ? probably won't go away.
awesome critter ? hell yeah !

ck

In my opinion, the spider is probably the most hardy of all ball python morphs. I raised my male from 170 grams to 1800 grams in less than a year......and I didn't powerfeed. They just eat and eat and don't stop. You can see them grow much quicker than other morphs. Male spiders are breeding machines. Have fun. I'm keeping another from this year's batch.

Brandon
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Hi K,.... Just my nosing in here. My semi-educated guess is that the wobble is a genetic defect of the neurologic system. IT just happens to fall on the same allele as the gene that induces the spider mutation itself. This is not uncommon. We look at it and call it blanket-ly a gene morph in reality it is a huge chain of genes all on one allele.....We often assume to much in that the animal is simply inheriting one gene when in reality it is a huge number of genes........NOW I pose the question is it truly neurologic or is that simply a SYMPTOM of a metabolic disorder??????? I have never seen that addressed as a possible culprate.... Thiamine B1, Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, Potassium, and too many others to list could be a culprate in the mysterious head wobbles.......It could be a natural uptake issue in which simple additional supplementation could resolve it. If it is missing an enzyme that assists in the uptake of vitamins out of the gut or is unable to process it into a useable form it could cause Neurological symptoms......... I have noticed the seemingly fast development in Spiders maybe they are using a nutrient so fast that it is deficient in the bloodstream Robbing peter to pay paul... JUST A THOUGHT!!.................Mine show only very minor symptoms and it is obvious they appear healthy and in fact robust........The world may never know. ..... God Bless, Lee

I'm very interested in the possible uptake angle on both spider looping and caramel kinking (and super cinnamon duck bill and kinking too while we are at it).

There have been a number of breeders claim, or report to have claimed, to produce large numbers of these morphs without the problems. Unfortunately, it's hard to know if we can believe this. Even today the general consensus is still that these problems can be outbred. I suppose outbreeding as a solution is still possible with the right crossover and your idea that it's a separate but nearby gene but I’m guessing it might be the mutant gene it’s self causing both the mutant appearance and the problems. So there is a huge incentive for a breeder to claim to have it licked because people would think they are less likely to have the problem buying from that breeder. However, it could just be an accident of what type of rodent food that breeder uses or lighting or incubation temp or any number of variables that might be able to compensate for a tendency of the morph. If we could get a reliable report from more than one breeder who is not seeing these problems and then compare what they might be doing different we could perhaps make these problems a thing of the past and really help these morphs. For example, the answer might be that you must feed Brand X rodent feed to the rats for you spiders or that caramel eggs need vitamin drops and/or cool incubation. Not only would this sort of information reduce the number of animals that suffer with these problems but it would really help the popularity of the morphs.

The dam of my Sputter clutch has ZERO Spider behaviors and her 2 Spider offspring from thaty clutch do not exibit any either. My other Spider girl is a "SEVERE SPINNER" who is around 1200 grams and I should be able to breed her next season. I am going to pair her with something codom. I'll be interested to see how many/if any of the Spiders she produces are "spinners".

Do we know to what extent this trait is random (like Pied markings- low white can produce high white) or directly inheretable from parent??
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Bill Buchman