Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What happen to that post about the diet, of the two crushed eggs and turkey. I wanted to see what more peoples thoughts. Was it way off and that is why they took it off?
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With this subject.

One is, folks are not willing to have their success rated, which means, there is no actual difinition of success. To many, having a heartbeat is success. As soon as that stops, they get another and start all over with their success. Without a actual rating system, the term "success" becomes meaningless.

Its my opinion, on a scale of 1 to 10, the turkey diet in any of its forms, at best rates a four or five. And that includes the SDZ. While they kept some monitors living for a period of time and with a certain amount of problems and successes, its hard to tell what actual level of success they had. The reason is, they never produced offspring which means the diet cannot be measured in terms of generations. Whole prey diets, have a history of many generations with many species. So a comparison is impossible. They say, that was not their goal, which is fine, but that eliminates them for the conversation because others have taken other diets to many generations.

An analogy is, if we were talking about racecar fuel(a diet is fuel) one group says they have a better fuel, They go on and on about how good the fuel is, but then asked if they won any races(what racing is all about) they say no, we chose not to race.

In this instance, you can certainly choose to use their racecar fuel, but its a good idea to not think about winning any races. Well the SDZ turkey diet has not won any races, its gone around the track a few times, but won a race, no, as they chose not to race.

As a very experienced racer, I could indeed make some adjustments to my racecars and have some success with the turkey diet fuel. As I understand racecar technology. But the question is why, if there are better fuels and there certainly are, why choose something middle of the road?

Also, many feed turkey as a PART of a diet, then claim its good. Hmmmmmmmm I include donuts in my diet, but I would not only eat donuts. As part of a whole prey diet, any mix of turkey is ok, but of no real benefit to the monitor, but doesn't hurt them either.

In my opinion, if there is a scale of 1 to 10 and the upper levels are easy to obtain, then why not use them. So, whole prey items are proven without a shadow of a doubt and they are easy to obtain. Yes, turkey is cheaper, but a good proven diet should be part of the responsibility of ownership. Is it possible some want to feed turkey because its cheap and it would allow them to have more monitors and not have a normal cost of ownership?

I use to feed that turkey mix years ago, but found out it was better to figure out BETTER(cheaper) ways to obtain whole prey items(rodents, insects, etc). There indeed are many ways to feed whole prey items less expensively.

Remember, from the mouths of the INVENTORS, that turkey mix is SUPPOSE to be like(equal) a mouse. Hmmmmmmmm then why not use a mouse. Yes I know, thats toooooooo simple.

If for some reason the keeper is unable to feed whole prey items, then perhaps monitors are not for them.

As a measure of success, I have a female that just laid her 61st clutch as a result of a rodent diet. As a comparison, the SDZ has not produced 60 clutches of varanids, in the history of the zoo with all the monitors they ever kept, on any diet. So there really is no comparison.

Again, a clutch represents a begining of a new generation. Oh, that female of ours is a fourth generation female from our facility. A generation also means hatching the egg, then raising the hatchling to successful reproduction. The number of generations verifies the quality of the diet. The number of clutches per female shows the actual amount of support and yes, diet is very important in the support of all monitors, wild or captive. Cheers

Sorry, if I offended anyone. I was just asking a question because alot of websites claim the SDZ diet is legit (including the local elmwood zoo in Norristown, PA). Anyway, I think its now obvious to me that whole prey rodents and insects are always best for your monitor as a staple.

A couple of things, first, you do not know that yet. You now know that a diet of whole prey items is and continues to be very very successful and handy. After you have it work great for you and your monitors, then you will know a diet of whole prey items is great. Thats if the rest of your husbandry is ok.

Once you decide to test the two, then you can compare and understand which is "better".

The problem is, there are thousands of opinions, and 99% of those opinions are merely peoples ideas that have never been proven by them, just passing on someoneelses opinion. This is very confusing to those who are actually interested in a diet that actually works, when applied. Not a diet that sounds good, but fails in some way when applied.

For instance for me. Turkey diet or SDZ turkey diet WAS FRIGGIN HORRIBLE. Let me explain, I actually keep and breed many species throught many generations of varanids for a long time. That means, I have a handle on the rest of husbandry. That gives me the ability to judge what a diet does. I already know how to be successful, I do not need to attribute success or failure on a diet.

I have tested a varied diet, and basic diet, a turkey diet, dogfood, etc on animals that were already successful to the highest degree.

I rate the turkey diet very near the bottom. Sadly, the biggist reason has little to do with how good it is for the monitors. The crap stinks like heck. That is, if the monitors do not eat it right off, it ripens and smells the whole place up and bad. And it does so quickly, like like a giant petry dish. It makes a old rotten bloated mouse smell good.

Well, thats fixable hey. Not when you have dozens of cages. To me, that rotten smell was the straw that broke the camels back. The actual diet showed no benefit over mice(what its suppose to mimic) All it showed was, worse then, not better then. So I do not like it. Not in the least. In fact, the thought of it makes me gag. hahahahahahahahahaha true.

The point is, why do these folks say what they say? Do they have actual results and what is the quality and quanity of those results. And, what are the restrictions. If they have nothing to show, then what is their point? The truth is, most of these people are merely taking sides and have not real experience.

You see, your job as a reader of this stuff is to RESEARCH. Not by reading a bunch of opinions, but instead research why these people say what they say. Then you must decide if that material is enough to support what these people say. In most cases, they do not have reason to say much of anything. In many cases, these people do not even keep monitors or are very very poor at it.

The actual truth is, in any endover, there are those that are good, some great, and those that are OK, and those that suck. It does not matter what field your in. There is always a range of ability. The problem seems to be, those that are not so good, squeak the most.

The problem with the internet is, all those people are equal. They can equally say anything they want. So you should be aware, they are not the bad guy, as they are commonplace. Your the bad guy for not checking into their actual results. So here the table is turned. Your task is to ask for and recieve Proof that what is said has merit.

In most cases, if you ask for proof, they change the subject or attack you, or simply disappear. it appears to offend many to have to support what they say.

So in the end, do not listen to anything without asking for support or proof. Then you can judge and see if the results or quality of those results, fits your needs. Cheers

You were right about the AZA. It was not the AZA it was from someone the Houston Zoo. That was my bad. I don't really see how you can conclude that the obesity was from imporper husbandry when the only thing that changed was the diet, and they clearly put on too much wieght while on the diet, and then when it was switched to roaches, shrimp, and rodents the wieght came off. The diet did also make their waste smell worse, just as if you were to eat a bunch of eggs, your waste might smell a bit worse as well. So would the smell of your waste product ONLY be worse due to you not flushing the toilet. Cmon! I never said not to use the diet, and I can only truly say what my own experience with it was.

"However, the SDZ ground turkey monitor diet was originally formulated secifically for one species of monitor, and to be a completely balanced diet, and as a safe alternative to live feedings and an all rodent diet which also has known health issues such as kidney failure and impactions, it should only be used as a filler and to add some variety to their diets, and not as a staple for any species of monitor. Unfortunately there is little known about the true original formula due to the diet being passed around word of mouth and through internet sources. There is no true right or wrong diet for monitors and until there has been long term proof of success of the ground turkey diet that clearly shows no adverse side effects such as obesity, then a large variety of crickets, roaches, wax worms, fish, shrimps, and chics should be used as primary diet items. I also do not recommend rodents as a staple diet for monitors as they rarely feed on them in the wild and are much more prone to feed on insects, millipedes, scorpians, termites and other young reptiles and amphibians depending on the species."-Marcus D. White PhD.
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www.frogfreaks.com

I am not sure how this relates to my post, but you put it here, so somehow you think it does.

There are a few things about this post, first, in the end of the second paragragh, it states whole prey items. That is what I recomend. I recomend whole prey items over any prepared food like the SDZ turkey diet or others. While I have narrowed monitor diet to mice and crickets, I have no problem feeding any whole prey item as mentioned in the bottom of that paragraph.

Also that paragraph mentions liver problem with monitors and mice. Sir, that is very Old outdated information. There are several points here. One, in those days, savs commonly diet of liver failure. That is true, liver problems were totally prevented by allowing a proper temperature range. At low temps, monitor(any reptile below its needed temps) cannot process food correctly and will eventually perish from that.

Since the advent and application of a decent temperature range, liver problems are mostly gone. Sadly, savs still die, just not so much from liver problems.

Also any method can succeed or fail for reasons other then what the keeper is focusing on. For instance, with the turkey diet, I do not use it because of the speed of which it rots. I love live mice and crickets because I have found, monitors may not want to feed when I feed them. And mice and crickets can live and stay healthy in the cage for hours or days(for crickets) Of course, I would not leave a huge live mouse with a small monitor. ALso of course, I would not leave any sized rat, except pinkie or fuzzie rats in cages for any lenght of time. But then, any keeper has to always use common sense.

So yes, I do attribute part of my success to having food for the monitors, when they are ready to feed, not when I am ready to feed them. I find monitors at times will feed several times a day, not all days, just when they need it. So instead of being so smart that I know when those times are, I simply provide them the oppertunity to tell me when those times are.

On a nasty note, our monitors love old dead rotten mice, but will not touch SDZ turkey diet as soon as it rots and it rots quickly in a hot monitor cage or outside in our desert sun. Again, I am a bit of a odd keeper, I go by what the monitors tell me, not by something I read, so if they tell me its not edible, then I believe them.

Again, what i find odd, no, very odd is. We have had and continue to have MORE success then all these turkey folks put together(with monitors) We do not worry about growth or reproduction, they grow like weeds and reproduce like pez despensers. All I worry about is social grouping and proper nesting and making sure all the mechanics(heaters, coolers, incubators, etc) in my facility are working. So instead of being a dietary specilist, I can be a maintenance man.

Again, not to brag or sound like I am bragging but I have had one single female lay more clutches and have more hatchlings then the entire history of varanids at the SDZ.

I look at her(just laid her 61st clutch and still going) And I wonder, what is the matter with all of you folks that debate turkey or insects or any manner of diet. She feeds on mice and has since she hatched her. You see, my problem is, I see this young lady everyday and many more like her. So I do not have to read papers to tell me how to allow this. (This is why I have to say what I say).

So no, its not all that complicated and you do not need to be a PHD to understand this. All you need to do is compare results. The problem here is, so many folks smoke screen the subject and post all manner of articules and such. And all this stuff is out of context or written by nice people with very limited experience. And on very limited tests. As readers, you suppose to understand that longterm successful tests, should outweight, shortterm successful tests, and really outweight shortterm unsuccessful tests(which are common), etc etc etc. That you don't is not my problem or even your problem, its always going to be your charges problems.

In your case, bringing up information about monitors from the 60's to the late 80's is really out of context. Specially since the majority of success with monitors has occurred after that.

Yes, there is this nice fella in Texas that fed turkey to his monitors and had GREAT short term results. His wonderful monitors had some incredible results. The problem was, they passed away in a rather short time. Which to me means, they were not supported in some way or another.

I hope I addressed this in the context you were going, but again, I am not sure about what your post meant. Cheers

Just currious... the person you knew who fed SDZ, how long did the monitors live?

Got me, I heard and for the actual truth, you would have to ask them, they lived thru their second reproductive season. But then, thats what I heard. Again, they can post and verify that.

The actual point is, there can be exceptions and As I mentioned, its not actually about the diet. Like I said, I am sure I can get it to work or a while. But why would I when mice have proved to be successful over and over, with no thought or cares over many generations.

What you and anyone actually does is your joy and responsibility. I wish you well. You can chose to do what ever you like. My only responsibility is to voice my opinion and that I have done, thanks and good luck.

Its not really important how long they lived, the point is this and other man made diets cant and will not sustain captive monitors long term.

3 years ago when PE hatched there first clutch of ionides (awesome babies) a guy from Toronto obtained 10 pairs of babies (imports) he set them up like breeders do with large pythons and fed them the turkey diet exclusively, for months he bragged about the fast growth and beauty of his monitors, then the sings of MBD stated to pop up, rubber jaws, kinked backs and week legs.
Needles to say none of these monitors are alive today, don’t know if he killed them or they died, not important.

However all this don’t mean much as many experienced keepers could have succeeded where others have failed even with crappie diets, its not only about food as the best diet is nothing without proper husbandry and vis-versa.

For many years iv been trying to fault FR’s mice and crickets formula for success, iv tried all foods including the very natural and specie specific foods like African roaches, land snails, scorpions, millipedes, various and rare lizards that are known to be eaten by such and such specie.

Guess what? VIVA (Mice and crickets) This should be the very start in varanoculture, theirs plenty of husbandry parameters to play with other then food. Stop wasting time about it and start enjoying the lizards.

I keep forgetting that peoples studding these animals in the wild are reading this forum and misinterpreting whatever I post.

10minuts and I get a phone call asking why I say that mice are better then what they eat in nature?

Well first I didn’t say (mice and crickets) are better then a natural diet, all I am saying is they are better suited for captive varanids.
Frank has proven it over and again (say Thank you FR)

I am sorry that you don’t understand the difference between captivity and nature!
Nature is way more complex and much less forgiving, free living monitors are submitted to the elements and feed accordingly, most captives are allowed better and more stable temp choices, this means they can use better support then what nature provides them.

Why should I explain this?

Also its been years and still you guys don’t post on this forum, yet you read and email each other about who says what about things you don’t understand, this is annoying big time!

Pleas post your comments or questions on the thread of interest.

Ps. By the way that phone is my ex wife’s number not mine.

Well, I'm not offended. People will do what they please. And about the canadian guy - w/o seeing his setups, you can't blame the diet for his problems. I have never had mbd in a monitor on turkey.

I agre with you about his set-up (awfull)

I have nothing aginst your diet Jeff, I simply prefer rodents for the same reasones FR said.

on the other hand I know and understand that on a more (nature like) husbandry your diet could work very well. I know for sure I can make it work, but not with my curent husbandry.

surly you understand what I am saying.
Rgds

Hi Jobi, thanks and how are you? I hope well.

Theres a few more points to this. one is, WHO is doing the feeding. In most cases here, its a newbie doing the asking. If it wasn't, there would be no need to ask. Other then to start fights.

With newbies(and me) simple and successful is better then complicated and any manner of results.

As I have stated so many times, I can include whatever I want, even turkey if I chose. I already know that my base diet will WORK and work wonderfully.

As you mentioned, my work is not with diet, my "work" is with behavior and nesting, which are always fun and challanging with varanids.

I will come back later, but right now I have to dig up a nest of flavis, before the storm hits. Thanks again and cheers

I was lucky(sort of) and dug right to the nest. This female, my prettist bred to the prettist male, has had fertility problems since her first male died(board got him) since then, she has consistantly produce half good clutches(five good out of ten).

Today, she produced(her second clutch this year) 10 eggs, which is normal and 9 were perfect. A great unexpected surprise.

I did pop one good egg. My bad, not the diets, hahahahahahahaha

Again Jobi, I hope your health is good and you get your fight and vigor back. Cheers

Thanks for asking about me Frank.

My doctors say I am the luckiest man they know.

But hears something you can relate too but not them, all our work with varanids ( especially metabolisation) is probably what saved my life, in some way I O you big time, maybe more then I think.

Going against them and opting for better foods and moderate exercise as opposed to modern treatments have worked beyond my expectations.

It boils down to treating the causes vs. symptoms!

No joke I am in great physical and spiritual shape, will send you a photo of myself at present, compare it to the last one I sent, you be the judge.

Funny how one thing leads to an other?
Rgds

Sorry Frank but my ex email account needs reconfiguration, cant email you.

Went from 320lbs 36in waist to 220lbs to 34in waist in 10 months, still have 2 apparent tumours left ( look under lion and abdomen) but they are regressing fast, in any case I don’t think about them and I don’t care either.
I feel in excellent shape and ready for a field trip to Australia or PNG (your call) the good thing is you wont have to carry me, I bet I could outrun a flavi too!?