Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I bought a pair of bulls from Jason in 05, double hets for Stillwater hypo and axanthic. This little guy hatched out a few days ago, apparently healthy and happy, but when I got home from work he was dead! What a bummer! Out of 14 eggs last year, I did not get one, and this year out of 5 eggs that hatched from the first clutch, here he is, but....
I have another clutch of 8 eggs that look good right now, so maybe I will get lucky and hatch out another one of these, but I thought Jason and everyone else might like to see what this rare morph looks like, Brad Lichtenhan

Hi Brad

What a bummer! I hope the 8 egg clutch produces a couple for you. I think that morph would be very gorgeous as an adult like most Stillwater hypos are. Silver and black is a color combo that produces subtle beauty. Good luck on the rest of the clutch and thank you for sharing the pic of your first one.
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Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

Brad,
MAJOR bummer- that thing is AWESOME!!!

I'd snatch up a pair of those in a heartbeat!

//Todd

That's a crying shame...

Glad there's still hope for this year, though!
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Diego

That sucks man,Major bummer.

L8r Shannon

That is a bummer Brad. Hopefully luck is on your side and you'll see another one out of your next clutch.

The axanthic and possible double het I got from you last year are doing great. I really love the look of your possible hets. Very attractive. Thanks for some nice animals. Take care.

Jeremy
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Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

Thanks Jeremy, I am glad you like them, I think the double het adults were really nice looking animals, Brad

I am so very sorry to see that the snake died!! That sucks!!!!!!

Now, I would like to comment on the term being used to describe this snake, Axanthic Stillwater Hypo. In my humble opinion, that label is not entirely accurate, as it is not an actual Axanthic bull from the locality Stillwater Hypo bull line. I believe that Miami Co. Axanthic bulls were bred into this line ( and please correct me if I am wrong ), to create, in combination with the other parent being a Stillwater Hypo bull, the double het genes in the posters’s breeding pair, right? Well, in my opinion and others as well, once those two localities were crossed, there is no more reason for even using the locality names to begin with, as they are not pure locality snakes anymore on both ends of the spectrum. Genes can not be “ het locality “. Snakes can be het for the certain morph characteristics, such as hypo, axanthic, albino, etc., but locality is lost once the breeding takes place from different animals from two different localities or one locality animal bred with a non locality animal. Does that make these less important than locality ones? Absolutely not, and I love all morphs and locality morphs, and I personally can’t stand the “ if it ain’t locality, it sucks “ attitudes that I have come across before in this hobby.

The same thing has happened with the Okeetee corn subject. " Okeetee" is an actual locality, but now, if an Okeetee corn was used in a breeding but the other snake bred was not an Okeetee, or if a corn snake looks like what people think that Okeetees should look like, now we have more “ Okeetees “ than ever, without having many of the actual lines from the Okeetee hunt club being active throughout the bloodlines!!

My point is simply the subject of proper labeling. Yes, the hypo gene from the Hypo Stillwater bull line was used, just like the axanthic gene was probably used from the Miami co. bull line ( and again, correct me if I am wrong ). I know some will argue that the term “ Stillwater Axanthic” has to be used, to help as identification in what genes were used, and I completely see that side, but I still would politely disagree. Perhaps this would be a great time to come up with a new or original name all together for these beautiful snakes exhibiting both characteristics of these two lines???

This is all just my opinion and given with all due respect. It is to me, just a case of calling something for what it really is. To the original poster, please post pics of the other babies in the other clutch if you get any like these that hatch out!! Again, I am sorry to see that this baby snake did not make it, and it will be interesting to see how that clutch turns out. Thank you for sharing!

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Genesis 1:1

>>I am so very sorry to see that the snake died!! That sucks!!!!!!
>>
>>Now, I would like to comment on the term being used to describe this snake, Axanthic Stillwater Hypo. In my humble opinion, that label is not entirely accurate, as it is not an actual Axanthic bull from the locality Stillwater Hypo bull line. I believe that Miami Co. Axanthic bulls were bred into this line ( and please correct me if I am wrong ), to create, in combination with the other parent being a Stillwater Hypo bull, the double het genes in the posters’s breeding pair, right? Well, in my opinion and others as well, once those two localities were crossed, there is no more reason for even using the locality names to begin with, as they are not pure locality snakes anymore on both ends of the spectrum. Genes can not be “ het locality “. Snakes can be het for the certain morph characteristics, such as hypo, axanthic, albino, etc., but locality is lost once the breeding takes place from different animals from two different localities or one locality animal bred with a non locality animal. Does that make these less important than locality ones? Absolutely not, and I love all morphs and locality morphs, and I personally can’t stand the “ if it ain’t locality, it sucks “ attitudes that I have come across before in this hobby.
>>
>>The same thing has happened with the Okeetee corn subject. " Okeetee" is an actual locality, but now, if an Okeetee corn was used in a breeding but the other snake bred was not an Okeetee, or if a corn snake looks like what people think that Okeetees should look like, now we have more “ Okeetees “ than ever, without having many of the actual lines from the Okeetee hunt club being active throughout the bloodlines!!
>>
>>My point is simply the subject of proper labeling. Yes, the hypo gene from the Hypo Stillwater bull line was used, just like the axanthic gene was probably used from the Miami co. bull line ( and again, correct me if I am wrong ). I know some will argue that the term “ Stillwater Axanthic” has to be used, to help as identification in what genes were used, and I completely see that side, but I still would politely disagree. Perhaps this would be a great time to come up with a new or original name all together for these beautiful snakes exhibiting both characteristics of these two lines???
>>
>>This is all just my opinion and given with all due respect. It is to me, just a case of calling something for what it really is. To the original poster, please post pics of the other babies in the other clutch if you get any like these that hatch out!! Again, I am sorry to see that this baby snake did not make it, and it will be interesting to see how that clutch turns out. Thank you for sharing!
>>
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>>Genesis 1:1
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Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
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Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

Also "white snake" is better then using the term Leucistic when describing the Ball and Reticulated Python morphs.

It just ins not correct and is not the same thing you are saying buy yet it is the same thing you are saying.

At least it doesn't ANNOY you!!! (smiles)
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1502285,1502285

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=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
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Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

DISCERN wrote:

"Genes can not be “ het locality “. Snakes can be het for the certain morph characteristics, such as hypo, axanthic, albino, etc., but locality is lost once the breeding takes place from different animals from two different localities or one locality animal bred with a non locality animal."

I both agree and disagree-you are correct that an animal cannot be "het locality". But in this case "Stillwater Hypo" is actually the name of the morph-the "Stillwater" modifier serves to seperate it from the other "normal" morph of Hypo bullsnake. This is important, since the Stillwater Hypo is a very different morph from the regular hypo bull. I know if I am successful in producing patternless Stillwater Hypos next year I'll be very careful to designate them as such.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

But the thing you have to remember is that it is a LOCALITY morph, no matter if the Stillwater name does modify the difference of the hypo gene from other hypo genes or not. AND..unless your patternless " Stillwater hypos " are designated from the ACTUAL Stillwater line, then to me, they are generic patternless bulls that have a hypo gene from the Stillwater line, but had OTHER lines of bulls incorporated into your breeding to get the patternless characteristic. See what I mean? If the patternless gene did not come from a Stillwater locality animal, then the combined results are not animals from Stillwater, Ok,..simple as that. That is why I said in my post that I do see the side of the issue that says that the Stillwater name has to be there to identify the particular hypo gene at work. I do understand that, but I would still have to disagree. However, the fact of the matter is, unless the line is the actual line from the Stillwater locality, then what reason is there to call it something it is not? That, to me and others, is the thing that makes or breaks the proper label in this issue.

See, then you will have people who buy these animals from these breedings that think they are getting an ACTUAL Stillwater morph bull, and they simply aren't. Wouldn't you want to get what you paid for?? Or, some simply won't care as well, which is fine as well. To me and many others, when I buy a snake that has a locality name to it, it would be nice to know that it is ACTUALLY just that. Same with cars. I happen to love Nissan, and when I buy them, I really would like to trust that it is an actual Nissan car I am buying, made with actual Nissan parts, and not some car made with just the Nissan name and various other things throughout it. See what I am saying??

Here's an illustration. You have one glass of Coca Cola and one glass of Pepsi, side by side. You then pour both glasses together into one big glass. Then, you pour two glasses of the combined liquid back together, repeat, and then pour as many glasses as you want back into other glasses. So, after all that, do you have Coke or Pepsi? You no longer have either of the individual brands of Coke or Pepsi, but a liquid of course, that has the combined ingredients of both. Still, it can not be separated back each into one of the individual liquids once they are combined. So, in other words, you can't pour this combined liquid back into a glass and have solely Coke or solely Pepsi. The same goes for these types of breedings.

Bottom line, breedings such as these are basically outcrosses, and should be labeled as such, in my opinion. All opinions and such are left to each individual buyer and seller to deal with how they see fit, and I just happen to be one of the buyers, that again, wants to be receiving what I paid for, and to see others who do not misunderstand the breeding situations, get what they paid for. Just my opinion.

Good input!! Take care!!!
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Genesis 1:1

Two different issues, LOCALITY and MUTATION. Stillwater, Oklahoma is a locality-it is the spot from which the first examples of the unique genetic mutation that has come to be known as "Stillwater Hypo" originated. These original animals were widely outcrossed with bulls from other areas. There is no other accepted name for this mutation, which is quite distinct from any other mutation affecting appearance in Bullsnakes.

When I purchased my own pure "Stillwater Hypo" animals from Will Bird, he made no claim that all the ancestors of those animals originated in Stillwater, Oklahoma. Nor did I expect such-in fact I'm fairly sure that this was NOT the case. If he had wished to make such a claim, he would have followed the generral practice in herpetoculture and sold them as LOCALITY Stillwater Hypo Bulls-or, if of normal appearance, Locality Stillwater Bulls.. Such animals are occasionally available (though much less commonly than generic Stillwater Hypos).

If we do not call animals which exhibit the homozygous variant of this gene "Stillwater Hypo", then what DO we call them?

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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Well, in your case, you simply just did not care about whether or not they were the actual real thing, and that is fine. If they were not actual Stillwater Hypos, IMO they should not have been labeled as such. Same thing could be said about any locality or locality morph animal. What's the point in labeling a Burlington Co. northern pine such as that if it really isn't to begin with? What about labeling an Okeetee Corns an Okeetee if its' lines really do not come from that area? Then what about locality animals, like Sanderson Co. alterna, Black Gap alterna, etc.,..this argument can be applied to it all.

My Stillwater hypo came from Ginter himself, and was a result of breedings from his original breeders, so I know for a fact that mine is the actual thing, and in that instance, I like knowing that. This is where to each his own should be applied. I am happy with mine, and you are with yours!! That is a beautiful snake by the way!!!

I am actually quite surprised no one has pinned a new name for these outcrossed breeding results, as this hobby is full of those who are dying to name something. Such examples are the million " different morphs " of ball pythons.
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Genesis 1:1

Actually Okeetees are a good example-nobody expects okeetees to have actually originated from the Hardeeville, S.c. area UNLESS they are Lanbeled as "Locality" Okeetees.Otherwise they are assumed to be Okeetees by appearance only.

The examples of the various greyband localities are also indicative of my original point-I don't believe it is necessary to advertise animals that came from Sanderson, Black Gap, etc as "locality" in every case, because unlike "Stillwater Hypo", those names do not ALSO refer to a specific genetic mutation. Nevertheless, most do choose to add the "Locality" moniker to the description. I think this is a good idea even if not strictly necessary.

Believe me, no one is more of a FANATIC about pure locality animals than I am. I breed subocs, splendida, annulata and alterna from various specific locales. And I agree that if one has Stillwaters Hypos from the original Oklahoma locality, they should proudly add "Locality" to their animals! Until someone invents a new name for the mutation (and that name gains general acceptance) this should be sufficient to avoid confusion.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

" And I agree that if one has Stillwaters Hypos from the original Oklahoma locality, they should proudly add "Locality" to their animals! "

And that is precisely my point. The name Stillwater is just, that, a locality, and it should not even be secondary to even have to add " locality " to the name, as the name itself is a locality. So again...why use a certain locality name in advertising a snake when in actuality, it is not?

About the alterna,...If these graybands did come from certain localities, why wouldn't it be important to simply just label them for what they are?? Even though they are not some sort of genetic mutation, they still are what they are. No matter if anyone cares or not, that is exactly what they are!! So why not??

AND..if you are a fanatic about pure locality animals, the Stillwater Hypo bulls are just that, plus as a bonus, a locality combined with a morph trait! How cool is that!!???

Locality animals are what they are. Just that....locality animals. These bulls didn't come from any other city area or locality area. These came from Stillwater, and that makes them special. Just like any locality morph or locality.

Take care!!!
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Genesis 1:1

I guess I never really considered the point that they were locality animals, but I do see what you are saying. Pardon the mixing of species, but I considered the Stillwater moniker to be a morph identifier like "German" shepherd... even though possibly (probably) outcrossed at some point and probably not from Germany, still an identifiable morph with its own set of characteristics. Just my take...

Billy, I agree 100% but keep in mind that the Bullsnakes were actually rescued from being killed in a Rattlesnake roundup that was being held in "stillwater ok".
Nobody actually knows were the bulls came from.So, yes they are locale to a point but not really if you think about it.
Brad already did but I was going to bring up the okeetee corns also.I only know of 2 or 3 people now that actually have Hazard county animals from or near the hunt club.Its really a look(almost a morph if you will).
Anyway, I think that almost everybody is using the name stillwater just to I.D. the hypo gene.

Mine are from Ginter also (you know that) and I breed them true for locale sake and I also cross them into other morphs for the hypo gene they have since it is better than the trumbower (or generic) line of hypo.

L8r Shannon

" So, yes they are locale to a point but not really if you think about it. "

Well, judging from the information that I have, that is something that the founder will have to address, but from what I know, it was pretty much dead on about naming them Stillwater. Again, something he would have to comment on.

Awesome red bull there!!!!!
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Genesis 1:1

If that's true, I don't see how even the original founder animals can be called "true locality". Can you imagine what the locality greyband folks would say about a "locality" greyband picked up at a rattlesnake roundup?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

DISCERN wrote:

"About the alterna,...If these graybands did come from certain localities, why wouldn't it be important to simply just label them for what they are?? Even though they are not some sort of genetic mutation, they still are what they are. No matter if anyone cares or not, that is exactly what they are!! So why not??"

You miss my point-I am not at all advocating NOT labeling them as to locality! I'm saying that in these species the "Sanderson" or "black Gap" names should be used, and whether or not you add the term "locality is not nearly as important as in the case of Stillwater LOCALITY animals.

Once again I ask-if we don't call these animals exhibiting this gene "Stillwater Hypo", then what DO we call them?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

" You miss my point-I am not at all advocating NOT labeling them as to locality! I'm saying that in these species the "Sanderson" or "black Gap" names should be used, and whether or not you add the term "locality is not nearly as important as in the case of Stillwater LOCALITY animals. "

I see your point and I would agree!! Thanks for clearing that up for me!!!

" Once again I ask-if we don't call these animals exhibiting this gene "Stillwater Hypo", then what DO we call them? "

That is up to the individual. If it were me, I would just add the term " Outcross " to explain and label whatever is a result from the breedings, as that would explain clearly what they are. Calling them " Stillwater Hypo X Whatever " is also a good way, but the term " Outcross " may be simpler.

Take care!!
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Genesis 1:1

Thanks-I don't thinlk we're too far apart on this discussion...
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I do like the snakes, but I think this is interesting from the language perspective. If a snake was described as a "Stillwater bull that is hypo" I would expect it to be from Stillwater and to be hypomelanistic. When one is described as "Stillwater hypo" I see it meaning the snake is a hypo of the Stillwater variety, with Stillwater describing hypo.
In my mind this is comparable to calling boas "Kahl" or "Sharp" albino. The snakes aren't being said to have been bred directly by either person, but that strain of albinism is identified by using that term. Another similar description is the New England Axanthic brooks king. They don't have to come from New England, just be that variation of axanthic.
I have to break with you over the Okeetee corn. I realize the term is used generically for an appearance, but I don't think it is correct. I like Kathy Love's description, she has Jaspar County corns that are locality true, and "classic" corns that have the Okeetee look.
I am glad we're talking about language, and about snakes. Two of the most interesting subjects!

I don't think the term "Hypo" should really be applied to this morph, since the effect on appearance is not really a "hypo-type" effect. Rather than diluting the influence of dark pigments overall, the effect is very nearly the reverse-not only black, but yellows, orange and even green are intensified, as is the contrast between differing pattern elements.

On the other hand, if what Shannon posted above is correct, much of this discussion is, IMO, moot!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I believe Shannon's explanation of the lineage's origin to be correct, which as Brad stated would make the point moot.

daveb
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in the light, you will find the road...

I am glad to see the post generated such good discussion. I wonder why we don't get the label "hot topic" by it??? lol. Anyway, if anyone is really interested in knowing that animals are truly locality, then he/she will ask. When I have bought Okeetee corns, I did inquire as to the genetics of the Okeetee corns I was buying; local animals or just the 'look'. Anyone who knows a thing about bulls can look at the "name"(it was not a name, simply a description) and immediately know that they are not line bred Stillwater local animals, as we all know that there are no axanthics from Stillwater!! So in the label, axanthic Stillwater hypo, we all know they are not local animals. So it is/was an interesting discussion, but from the start it is obvious to pit lovers that noone is trying to label these baby snakes as local animals. I consider Stillwater hypo a morph, and I would imagine that it least 83.2% of the Stillwater hypos out there are not 100% Stillwater local, just my view of the interesting topic.

" Anyway, if anyone is really interested in knowing that animals are truly locality, then he/she will ask. "

I agree, but then again, some people don't ask a million questions like I do when I buy a snake, LOL!!, and they still might think they are getting a true Stillwater just because the name is on the label.

" Anyone who knows a thing about bulls can look at the "name"(it was not a name, simply a description) and immediately know that they are not line bred Stillwater local animals, as we all know that there are no axanthics from Stillwater!! So in the label, axanthic Stillwater hypo, we all know they are not local animals."

I completely agree very much so!!!
I would, if this were me, still would put on the " Outcross " tag, just so that when it left, there was no confusion at all whatsoever. After that, there is not much else that can be done.

" So it is/was an interesting discussion, but from the start it is obvious to pit lovers that noone is trying to label these baby snakes as local animals. I consider Stillwater hypo a morph, and I would imagine that it least 83.2% of the Stillwater hypos out there are not 100% Stillwater local, just my view of the interesting topic."

And that is where we would differ opinions, although I completely see your take and opinion on that viewpoint, and I value your thoughts on this. Thank you Brad for posting!!!
Gorgeous corn by the way!! Now you got me wanting one again!!

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Genesis 1:1