Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This Dragon is perfect in every way. Please enjoy kindly.

Steven Barnes

more pics.

thats what im talking about.

jeff hunter

I produced two dwarfs but not trans they were hypo reds. normal bodies normal tails little round bodies they were cute as hell. I dont know what does it but the only two times I paired my red hypo male with my import female I got a dwarf. I plan on pairing them again next season or end of this season and see what happens. If you want if I get a dwarf again I can send it to you and you can breed it with your dwarf trans and see if it produces dwarfs????? Something new and different!!!!

Give me a call 541-914-4903

I would be interested.

Steven Barnes

With no disrespect at all, because some of these dragons are fantastic looking, but why are people seeing more and more oddities now??? I have seen more than one instance of two headed dragons, read about certain dragons not attaining a good size(I mean where it is expected that the dragons will not reach a normal adult size), and now a "dwarf dragon"????

What is the cause of this?

Breeding dragons that are too genetically close to one another in attempt to attain these trans, hypo trans, smoothies, silkbacks, high colors, etc?

Is the gene pool just too close in the US?

Is this just evolution of beardies?

What should be done with these dragons? Let them breed and produce more like them? Cull them and not breed again the adults that produced said offspring?

I think there really is a fine line between breeding towards morphs, and breeding to produce weak or genetically inferior animals.

Thoughts?

I have only seen the quality of dragons inprove over the last 4 years.

It used to be a challenge to keep these animals alive in captivity.

Dwarf Bearded dragons have been around for at least 6 years and are not new.

Siamese Twins have nothing to do with inbreeding. (more likely incubation temps.)

Steven Barnes

never heard of dwarf dragons till now..only type of 'dwarf' dragons I have heard of are actually hybrids, Lawson (Rankins) dragons crossed with Inland bearded dragons...(and I think there is also Eastern x Rankins as well, but not 100% on these)
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PHLdyPayne

Going back about 10 years when I started with dragons(and really didnt know anything about them, lol), up until now, I never heard of a dwarf dragon, except for a Rankins, which I have kept, and they look nothing like the one in your picture.

I think its a little extreme to say that dragons used to be difficult to be kept alive in captivity, unless you are going back many many years. Of course husbandry practices, quality of lighting, equipment, and the vast amount of knowledge that people have now is far greater than it ever was so I could see that making it "easier"......

Maybe that "dwarf" dragon is a perfectly fine, healthy, and new designer dragon.

Can I ask you what your plans are?

Chris....I think what Steve was implying was that the translucent lines were not easy to keep alive. At first they, the translucents, didn't thrive like normal dragons.

There were a couple of breeders which began to work with them specifically and got them much stronger by gaining a better understanding of their genetics. Specifically Josh at Phantom Dragons.

I have a translucent, from Steve, and it is no different then taking care of a regular morph at this point. If anything it is even more hearty.

Ernie

I also have a trans from Steve and it is the heartiest healthiest dragon I've seen (just posted pics of it), couldnt be happier with my choice. BTW that dwarf looks sweet but imo the biggger the better but then again I'm only housing 1 dragon.

I took that as dragons in general, not the trans. I misunderstood. So what was it that made them not thrive?

Just for the record, I think that the hypos now, blow away anything I saw when I got out of the dragons. I think also think that some of the hypo/trans dragons out there now are pretty sweet looking.

I am a big fan of your work. Are you planning on working with some hypo soon?

Thanks, I do miss it alot. I just may get back into things. It seems like it would be so hard to though, being so far behind in what has gone on in the past 5 years. I have contacted some people I have sold to in the past looking for bloodlines that I used to have, but have not had any luck. If I do start breeding again, it would be a slow process for me.

probably answer that. I am not sure why they didn't thrive. I do know there are good ways, best ways, and bad ways to get a translucent.

The best/healthiest way to get a trans in breeding is to breed two Hets. This will not produce 100% trans or even 50% trans in the offspring. But, it will produce the biggest healthiest translucent dragon and move the line in a forward position.

So if you think about it....to get a specific bloodline into a trans you would need to breed it with a trans. Then breed one of the offspring with another het.

I am going to produce a hypo-translucent silkback dwarf a.s.a.p.

lol. Just kidding.

I am going to watch it and wait untill it is full size and mature befor making any decisions. I produced about 7 dwarfs this year. I am not the only one out and about with true dwarfs...

I know some one tried to breed a 2.3 of dwarfs about 4 years ago but the project never went anywhere.

Dwarfs are not runts. They grow very fast and get around just like any other dragon. They have normal size poop shoots so they should breed and lay eggs with out issue.

I love breeding dragons. Smaller dragons could be easyer to keep in captivity.

Steven Barnes

Personally I believe the translucents have come a long way. I don't think this particular dragon is mutated or anything, I think it is just a regular dragon but is a different size. Think about it, people are all different shapes and sizes, and this does not mean that they are mutated or unhealthy it just means that they are different and everyone and every dragon is different. I think this dragon looks pretty cool. It would be nice to have some different things out there.
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Darien Drollinger

sales@highendreptiles.com
www.highendreptiles.com

You Cry, I Cry, You Laugh, I Laugh, You Fall Off A Cliff, I Laugh Harder

That's the exact reason why I think these dwarf dragons will be marketable....Easy keepers.

Shaun

i have a dwarf dragon from a pairing of a chris allen red and a blood red from a1 reptiles. I would bet my life that it is a defect or mutation and probably by no means is a dominant trait or gene. it happens with beardies, babies and all other creatures. It may be occuring more now with all the new morphs being so closely related however two headed dragons(wich looked like they were normals), snakes, etc are just a natural product of a birth defect/mutation. wether you try to capitalize on this and sell it as something you tried to produce, well thats another shady story. thanks.yossi
Link

wouldn't it be a safe bet that siamese twins in dragons is caused by the same things it is in most animals including people and that it really has nothing to do with inbreeding? I mean if producing twins in people is genetic what would make anyone think anything different in dragons. Just a thought.

Hey Chris I agree with watching what we breed and the gene pool in the US is getting to a point where we may want to slow down. Australia may be lowering the ban on exporting dragons again soon they are talking about it. That is what my cousin tells me. As far as the dwarfs go it is not genetically inferior it is just like people who have the genetics for dwarfism. The parents can be two normal size adults and get a dwarf baby. Then again you can have two dwarfs and have a normal size baby. Same as in dragons they arent handy capped or genetically unsound just different. You can have a dwarf dragon be completely healthy I did!!!!! He was amazing. Unfortunately I let my friend have him and he gave it to somebody else and now I cant seem to track him down. We do have to outbreed more with foreign lines and find a good stock of normal dragons to back breed with otherwise you are right we will get more mutants and not in a good way.

LOL....I have to save this picture to my computer, very cool Steve, I see a market for these.

Shaun

i mean this with offense to anyone but....

is it right to market a dwarf dragon? how do we know this is something normal out of evolution or that its a mutation caused from imbreeding somewhere down the bloodlines or a disease or something? same goes with other morphs like silkbacks.

how can you tell a dwarf dragon from a runt?
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Judson
Beach Beardies

0.1. bearded dragon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

I'm not sure if it's right or not but if someone wants a dwarf dragon then it will be marketable.....That's just the reality of it. I don't think there's any doubt that some inbreeding down the line in one form or another causes it, whether they're healthy or not time will tell.....I'm curious myself.

Shaun

Come on Shaun, I mean really. There should be some sort of ethics involved and a standard to adhere to. We dont have healthy large, robust, colorful dragons from breeding sub-par animals. Years of breeding from those before alot of us, whether its bob at sandfire, kevin at dragon's den, rob and vickie, weiss, and others are owed a lot of credit for what we have now. You have to have some sort of standard to breed by. Why not take dragons that pop out with other "defects" and try to produce other oddities. If everyone bred small undersized dragons..........what would we have.........small undersized dragons!

Maybe the dwarf is a unique trait that can be bred into them........I can see it now, dwarf hypo trans silkback x smoothie het trans poss het dwarf.......etc, lol.

BTW, anyone have pictures of adult dwarfs that they own???

Seriously Chris you think that all of sudden people will have ethics when it comes to the mighty dollar? I'm not saying I agree with it(I personally like the old school dragons myself) I'm just pointing out the obvious....You will see these dwarfs available in the market. You could say the same thing about leucistics or various other morphs when they were created that it was unethical to continue to breed them but that didn't stop anyone and eventually with enough cross breeding they managed to get those lines strong and hardy.

Don't be surprised if you see a dwarf leucistic leatherback with three heads available in the future....Ok maybe maybe not with three heads..lol. I'm just saying I'm wouldn't be surprised and ethics will have nothing to do with it...Sad but true.

Shaun

i have a quad het leusistic silckback dwarf wich bred to a baby cricket that i left in the tank. now i have a bearded cricket who listens to barry manilow. weird huh.

Standard for Bearded Dragon is easier to achieve and agreed upon, compared to asking for ethics (whether on selling or breeding). I'm new with beardies, but was with dog breeding for a long time, and this was also a common discussion in dog breeding. Even with the established dog standards, breeders still try something beyond the norm to satisfy their urge...the urge to discover something new. Which I believe is a good thing if coupled with responsibility. In dog breeding, runts have to be culled to maintain the breed's standard, but still, a lot of puppy-mills sell them to newbies just for the money. On the other hand, new mutation can be good and exciting(just like Steven's dwarf-trans). We must remember that more pet lovers enjoyed the mini dogs compared to their standard counterparts(toy poodles, mini-pinscher, etc). But then again, breeders have to be very careful and responsible so as not to turn our Bearded Dragons into Bearded Collies! lol.

Does the bearded dragon community have a "dragon show" just like a dog show. It must be exciting to have something like that...Besides, that will motivate breeders to further improve the beardies.

Just my two cents...

-chuckpb

Dwarfism is not a trait or mutation from inbreeding. It is a genetic trait passed down. Just like eye color. The dwarf gene can come from two perfectly healthy adults the same as humans. You wouldnt see a normal couple in a store with a normal size child and a dwarf child and say " they inbred to get that baby" It is genetic and can be proven by crossing the two parents with seperate other dragons. You may never get another dwarf but if you get a dwarf from one parent with another dragon then your dragon is het for dwarfism. It isnt from inbreeding. Some traits people get are inbred traits, but you dont get dwarfism from it. You will get albino, limb mutation, weak eggs, early death, deformed (truly deformed Two head babies) etc.... dwarfs just as in humans are healthy and can live a long and happy life. So there could be a market for it but to produce them on a regular basis would take some research and time.