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I produced a clutch earlier this season in an attempt to prove out a CH Chocolate male. I am nearly convinced that they are just that..I just haven't seen any in person which makes it hard, but they fit the bill.

My favorite male from the clutch shed today (2nd shed) and is the first four pictures, the last three are other pics from the clutch..

I am not claiming just yet they are, so no bashing is needed here. I'm just looking for opinions from some of you morph gurus!

Note: All five of the hatchlings carry all the same marks/traits if that helps any..thanks in advance

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Hello Jay,

How have you been doing?
Nice looking snakes.
But, I hate to say, they do not look like Chocolates to me.
I have both Chocolates and Super Chocolates.
I personally feel like Chocolate and Sable are basically different lines of the same morph....just my opinion.
They are also quite similar to Granite and Super Granites.
Which can also look similar to the morph which has been called Ebony. (Produced by Amir)

Obviously, these animals all have very similar characteristics.
I have kinda labeled them as the "Cocoa Complex"....similar to how some people (perhaps Tracy Barker?) have labeled that whole family of lecuistic producing snakes, the "Lesser Complex".

Chocolates/Sables have a different looking belly....it is kind of sooty looking....ESPECIALLY in the homozygeous (super) form.
They are dark..and have very consistently shaped, large black splotches on the visiual hets...the homozygous are REALLY dark and they pattern is a much more extreme version of the visiual het form. Supers are AWESOME!!!

The snakes you produced do have an interesting look. Perhaps they are something new? Looks like a project you will have to put a little more time into. That always keeps things fun.

(Actually...it may be better that you could possibly have something other than an already proven trait to play with!)

How is the intersting male you got from Ben S. doing?
Did you hatch anything interesting from him yet?
I hope you and Ben have gotten that whole deal straightened out.
That is a very nice looking male! I'd love to see some updated photos of him, if you get a chance.
Hope all is well.
Take care,

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

Hi Harlan, Hope all is well with you as well. Im not sure what is up with these guys, but something. I was advised Chocolates and it has stuck with me, but I havent been sure.

The Ben thing was over as fast as it started and a COMPLETE misunderstanding, thats all I can say really. I got a little behind in my season having lost two family members in the same week after extended illnesses. Now I find out today that dad has colon cancer at 71 (just last week he fell down 15 or so stairs and broke alot of stuff, so it's been rough and the forcast isnt looking any better. Especially since he's my dad and best friend.

On a lighter note, I seem to have recovered the year for the most part. I had several girls decide to go late, which actually helped me alot. I am undecided what I am going to do in regards to my 'Cryptic' boy as far as releasing much info. I will tell you nothing has hatched from him just yet. I may just hold off regardless if I can that is. Here are some recents...

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Could you post a pic of your super chocolate? I don't think I have seen one yet.
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John Vandegrift

http://www.johnberryreptiles.com/ballpythons_c.htm

That's the only one I have saw...
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Nice babies Jay and thanks for the John Berry link. Are those the BHB line or the Bell line? Do both have the "dark mottled belly"? Any more chocolate pictures would be much appreciated (hint Harlin, and thanks for the description and info).

I've been told this mother and daughter look chocolate like and I have to agree but they have mostly white bellies so probably something different then. We are calling them Garcia after Alvaro Garcia who got this pet store female of mine to finally breed last year.

Whatever they are they got the same thing going on and Im sold it's genetic..Maybe I'll just call 'em whatever I want, that would settle it for me.lol

VERY Sharp looking animals there Randy..

I've seen two completely different versions of Chocolates, so I don't know..

And Here's dad:...

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I had heard the Bell and BHB chocolates might be different things. I'm very interested to know if both have the dark bellies. Maybe your's is another in this complex.

The normals from my female also have a dark and irridescent look to them. Here is one of the two normals from this year's clutch (14 eggs but only 9 hatched).

I believe the normal ones from her clutch last year where similar (I've got pics somewhere).

I think this girl is the Mojave Garcia combo. Not white like I hoped but she is growing on me.

And here is the belly of the just Garcia (unless that is actually a combo) female from last year. Not at all like the descriptions of at least one line of chocolates. Mom’s is even whiter. So really want to know if both lines of chocolate have the dark smudging bellies.

The OP snakes are very cool but not chocolates...

This is a Chocolate (Bell Line)

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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

Thanks! Nice to see one with a line name attached. So does the Bell line chocolate have the sooty/mottled belly?

What the heck are you doing over there, fishing all day? Get to work foo.
larry
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Bluegrass Reptiles llc

Randy, thats very nice ... I like it ! Was this the only one in the litter ? Would be neat to see a Super Choc Mojave.

cheers, John
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www.johnberryreptiles.com
www.designermorphs.com

This year was a breeding loan with Marshall Van Thorre to his Lesser and Mojave males (we think the Mojave fathered the babies). For the most part the babies fell into types with two each. Marshall has a sister that looks like the one above and we think they are the combo. We also each got what appears to be a male Mojave only. However there where also two males that looked a little in-between. I've been posting pictures on other forums (now one in this post) of my in-between male and asking around and he seems to be within the range possible for Mojave but I haven't completely given up hope he might be a subtle combo, just not as nice as his sister. So far he is the best eater of the bunch so I might get to try him for the Mojave super Garcia with mom this winter. In her two clutches so far (2007 and 2008) mom laid 23 eggs but of the 17 live hatchlings there was only one clearly Garcia male (all eight 2007 babies where females) so it might be a while before we have a super of any kind to see if it continues to look similar to chocolate or not.

This isn't the best pic but you can also see the more sure combo sister to the left and the presumed Mojave only brother to the right and one of the dark but presumed normal brothers in the far right.

Hi Jay,

I like Harlins description of the "Cocoa complex"(with both Chocolates and Sables) however I don't believe Sables and Chocolates are the same mutation, just as Mojaves and Lessers are not the same but closely linked.(possibly different expressions of the same genes at the same locus).

What I've noticed with Chocolates (just like all other morphs) is a big variation in terms of the pattern/ blushing/ color, etc. They nearly all have the "bell shaped" alien head markings that go up onto their spines, good lateral blushing and a some sort of "sooty" belly. Having said that, I would think yours could be Chocolates, possibly not very high blushed like the Bell line from Jon (Next World). The only real way to tell will be to breed back and aim for a Super. Also as they grow their colors and blushing improves.

Here is one of mine (normal and with good blushing) for comparison. Also a "light sooty" belly photo, most are more sooty and get darker as they grow although not as much as the darker Sables.

cheers,
John
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www.johnberryreptiles.com
www.designermorphs.com

Thanks to everyone shedding for some light on these.

Randy, you have some killer animals there. I LOVE that Mojo combo.

I appreciate the no attacks approach as I am not really claiming these are anything other than I think there's something up with 'em and I think most would agree or at least see why I think so.

I have learned to trust my instincts and don't want to make the same mistake I made last year. Last season, I hadn't saw too many Fires and as it turns out I have a female. I had bred her to a Pastel, and to make a long story short had a INSANE little male from the clutch that I let go as a normal Pastel (Im assuming he could have been a Firefly). Lesson learned. I had always thought she was 'different' but alot of folks are naysayers in general and had discouraged that thought for me. That of course is my fault.

I think we have learned in this hobby that if you have something you like or think may be something cool to go with it. Too many subtle 'looks' have had a lot of bang to them. Besides, if these things were worth nothing I'd still be having the same conversations and breeding the same animals, so I know it's for the right reasons anyways. Recouping anything at all for your time and effort is just a bonus.
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Here is a pic of our Bell line chocolate male at 600 grams.

They are a must see in person snake to really be appreciated.

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J&J REPTILES
www.jnjreptiles.com
sales@jnjreptiles.com
(207)479-6658

Hey J&J do you mind posting a belly shot? thanks
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My camera died out last night, so my wife is on the way to get a new one. When I figure out how to use it I will put up some belly shots. The belly is heavily patterned with a lot of black/dark brown in it.
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J&J REPTILES
www.jnjreptiles.com
sales@jnjreptiles.com
(207)479-6658

Thanks...
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He wasn't up for pics tonight, but here is the belly.
Link

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J&J REPTILES
www.jnjreptiles.com
sales@jnjreptiles.com
(207)479-6658

He is from John Martino @ RMJ Reptiles Nice little guy..i have some pin females for him next season but he will get some normal girls this winter if he gets big enough!!! Mike