Reptile & Amphibian Forums

4 of them shed - others undoubtedly will soon.

First - the parents:

I'll post the padawans each in their own reply, so that the pic heavy posts hopefully don't bring your browser to a screeching halt.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Number 1 - has not yet fed

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I decided my old sig was too big.

Just took 2 f/t small pinkies
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Number 2 - has taken f/t small pinky

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I decided my old sig was too big.

Number 3 - has taken f/t small pinky

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I decided my old sig was too big.

Number 4 - has not yet fed
This little guy had the audacity to actually bite me

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I decided my old sig was too big.

Just took 1 f/t small pinkie (offered 2)

Only 1 left to eat (#8 - very blue)
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I decided my old sig was too big.

They look a lot like hypermelanistic Cal kings from here in L.A. Co. The only difference is the pattern is a little different, but the overall look is identical. Even the ventral scales look like the hypers here. I wonder if they too will turn black with age. This breeding convinces me MBK are a form of melanism or hypermelanism, they could still be their own subspecies though.

so now what are you going to do with them?

Just wondering.I am not going to sling mud at you as you know how I feel already about crosses.But, I can see that they could be passed off as a few different things.Not by you the breeder but down the line.
Sock head conjuncta?LOL.....

L8r Shannon

Posted by: shannon brown at Thu Jul 10 00:12:27 2008 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Just wondering.I am not going to sling mud at you as you know how I feel already about crosses.But, I can see that they could be passed off as a few different things.Not by you the breeder but down the line.
Sock head conjuncta?LOL.....

Shannon,

You stress to much. Take a deep breath and say the world will pass away soon...
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

LOL, its my job to stress this much over mutts.What else will I do? I am like the hybrid police or something.

L8r
hater in the house!!!!!!!!!!

I'm going to hold back a male to breed back to MBK and a female to breed to a striped amel Cal King.

I'm half tempted to get one of those hypo florada/eastern crosses I've seen as a future mate to one of these to make a getula super mutt (four subpecies, both western and eastern subspecies) - but I probably won't.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

at what point is it a cross shannon? they are western kings! i mean on that line of thinking wouldnt breeding an apricot cambelli to a white banded in fact be across? what about hondurans? andeans, etc. i mean when/where/why do you draw this line? funky's are getula to be exact "pure" getula! ssp. are just regional variences that we label. cali,nigrita,natida,conjuncta,splendida,yumensis same friggin snake man. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

same mentality as those "snow" floridana x nigra mutts you produced are the same thing.

I guess the main objective of people like you is to contaminate as many pure strains of snake in the hobby as possible,...right!

a better question would be..."where do YOU draw the line?",....and the answer to that is quite obvious!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

ya'know what doug as i read through your post and others i see a real personal tone basically an attack/hate tone, its quite disturbing. this is a hobby we all love otherwise we wouldnt be here. we are weird freeky snake people why further division in our small group of people with your hate? what or who does it serve? intergradation happens naturally its the natural progression of wildlife. hobby snakes are dead to nature that means they cannot taint,hurt,destroy nat.pops. of course thats a whole nuther conversation and maybe im wrong but beleive thats not your prob. so much as natural variants(ssp.) being lost within the hobby. when the fact is if nat.pops of a given ssp. are gone for whatever reason and all we have left are a few individuals then intergrading may be the only option to save them so far as i know thats not the case with ANY getulus ssp. beauty is in the eye of the beholder many hobbiest breed for beauty, even locale breedings loose the wild type look after many generations. point is crosses are here and out there many done decades ago and released as the new thing then to be now accepted as pure lineage proven morphs. i apprecieate locale breeders and i love wild types but i and many love morphs and crosses as well as mixing the 2 if you really think the progeny of said offspring is going to destroy wild type locales within the hobby then dont buy them serious breeders dont and are very scrupulous on aquiring breeders. bottom line is i am not contaminating anything liten up a little, ill be at daytona and would love to talk at length then, and post like yours below i copied are really uncalled for man,,,,,
dont hate, apprecieate,,,thomas davis

...same mentality as those "snow" floridana x nigra mutts you produced are the same thing.

I guess the main objective of people like you is to contaminate as many pure strains of snake in the hobby as possible,...right!

a better question would be..."where do YOU draw the line?",....and the answer to that is quite obvious!...
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Dude, they aren't the same freaking snake.Why would they be different sub-species if they were the same snake? campbelli are campbelli I would never breed one to anything but a campbelli but I wouldn't care what look it had.
Thats were I draw the line but everybody can and does draw there own lines and thats fine.
I have said it a thousand times.I am not so worried about how he will sell them or whatever but what about the morrons that buy them and then the next generation they breed back to one or the other and bam...they have a special look to them and are sitting on a table as suck.I see it at every show man.I freaking kills me and somebody walks away from the table with 2 cups in there hands and a smile on there face thinking they have a very special pair of whatever.
What they have is a pile of crap and they will just further muddy the water when they breed them.
8 years from now you will see a new look in cal kings on the market and do the homework and they could trace back to Funkyres.

Thanks but no thanks.

L8r

Agreed completely Shannon!!
I wish there was enough caring for others in this world to fully comprehend the consquences of doing certain things in breedings, concerning what will happen to others years down the line when they buy certain snakes thinking they are getting one thing but actually getting something far different, as what you just described happens all the time. Very sad.

Good post bro!!
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Genesis 1:1

where a guy has to catch his own stock in order to be sure of what he has...to each his own, but I would advise anyone out there to really look at what they are buying, take some time to trace the lineage, see where the founding stock came from, and only purchase animals from people you trust. I deal with a few breeders who I know and trust, as well as a few University Professors who I also know and trust. If a guy is enough of a novice that he doesn't know what he has or where it came from, I don't have to worry about the genes in his snakes because they are not making their way into my collection.

Thanks,
Michael

>> "If a guy is enough of a novice that he doesn't know what he has or where it came from, I don't have to worry about the genes in his snakes because they are not making their way into my collection."

True!,...maybe not immediately,...but years down the road(like me and other's keep mentioning), and more back-breedings to the "target" species/ssp,.....don't be so sure of THAT either!..people acquire stuff from all sorts of different sources given enough time and generations. Even extremely experienced people can assume something is "genuine" if it "looks" good enough.

The dynamics of exactly how this works and evolves itself, is an ugly "wheel" that will NEVER stop turning now that it has the amount of momentum it does.....this will never get any better,...just MUCH WORSE!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Good to see you Michael, so to speak! LOL!!!
I hope you and your family are having an awesome
Summer! We might be in the Sandhills again this Fall
with Zee. Maybe we could all hit the sand together?
Take care.
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

Hoping to get down there for a day or two to meet up with you guys. I didn't make it this spring (spent more time down east), so I'm itching to get back out there.

Nice hearing from you.

Michael

Unknown lineage is part of why I'd never breed my cal kings. The guys I bought them from couldn't "remember" what the parents looked like on either of them, so I have no idea what they may have in their bloodlines... That and I'm not positive on the sexes of either of them. But they're pretty awesome pets, so I'm happy with them...

probably a female

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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 German Shep mix (Shadow)
0.1 Cat (Echo)

Maggie,....

I wouldn't worry much about those two being something they're not supposed to be, those are genuine Cal. Kings in anyone's book, even though their exact lineage is unknown.

No "purist" in the world would have a problem with you breeding those two together...not even me!..LOL!

take care!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug,

Either way, they're just pets... I don't have the experience with them to probe them and there isn't a reptile vet anywere close that could for me, so for all I know, they're both males...

Now my sulfur lavander brooksi on the other hand, I know he's a male, and I'm planning on gettin a het female to go with him sometime soon, but I've got a lot to learn before I get around to breeding anything...

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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 German Shep mix (Shadow)
0.1 Cat (Echo)

Okay,..I understand. And have fun with them, whatever the case may be.

I'm glad to hear you want to learn more as well!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

what is the point in keeping an animal if you're not willing to learn everything you possibly can about it? Isn't that half the fun of having them?
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 German Shep mix (Shadow)
0.1 Cat (Echo)

I wish more people had the goal of actually learning more, as you do.

I have also tried to learn as much about snakes as possible since 1967-68, and it has been a very enjoyable journey ever since!.....I wouldn't trade the snake hobby for anything!..

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I've learned a lot since I got my black n white cal king 4 years ago... and I've helped my best friend overcome her crippling fear of snakes by letting her hold that one whenever she wants, so it's been quite a learning experience for me and my friends... they're very worth the effort I've put into them...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 German Shep mix (Shadow)
0.1 Cat (Echo)

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>
>>"Now my sulfur lavander brooksi on the other hand, I know he's a male, and I'm planning on gettin a het female..."

that snake should not really be called a brooksi. maybe lav X sulfur X brooksi would seem less offensive. They are beautiful but they are a 3 snake mix, maybe or 1/16 brooksi or none. lavendar cal king by Hillsboro (sulfur) floridana X south Florida brooksi. Please understand I'm not picking on you or those snakes just pointing out that this is a perfect example of details lost over the years and mislabeling becoming accepted.
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Lindsay Pike
Urotopia Uromastyx

Lindsay,..

Yes,....I didn't want to mention that and seem like the "purist monster" to everyone here, but yes, that's exactly what I saw too!

later!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

cmonman, can't you just except the new terms and roll with it.Its just a north american King plain and simple.Haven't you been following the threads man? Get with it. They are all the same.

L8r

Geeesh!,.......how silly of me to have forgotten about that already!..hahaha!

later!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

See, this is why I like this forum so much... Everyone is willing to through out information and I'm learning things that I never thought I would... I don't know much of anything about the genetics of these snakes, and the more I learn, the more I feel like I'll just keep my pets and leave the breeding up to those that know whats going on...

When I get a female to go with that male, I'll proably breed them once just to see what I get and keep the babies...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 German Shep mix (Shadow)
0.1 Cat (Echo)

i dig the made in china sticker by your sulpherlav.brooks its pretty funny watching the purist haggle and flop but yet not say anything about the purity of your snake which btw is an obvious cross, not to worry though after a few generations even they wont be able to tell,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Actually, that has already been pointed out. Read the threads below the picture's post.
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Diego

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

lol... After all the recalls on toys lately, I was wondering if his hide was still safe for him... He's already got one deformity, I don't want to kill him with lead poisoning...

As for him being a cross, either way, if I do ever breed him, it'll just be for my own curiosity and the babies wouldn't be sold as pure anything...

Whatever the case may be, my snakes are just pets, and I'm happy with them, so I don't care what kind of mutts I might end up with down the road...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 German Shep mix (Shadow)
0.1 Cat (Echo)

thats really cool enjoy them thats what its all about.
p.s.ive always like your sig.,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 German Shep mix (Shadow)
0.1 Cat (Echo)

"...not to worry though after a few generations even they wont be able to tell.."

Uh-oh, I sense another chapter of my "near-beer" analogy coming on. I'll have a keg at my table in Daytona of special 87.5% "looks just like pure beer" for those that don't care what's under the hood. Recycling will keep us green. Cheers

i always thought the pee&beer thing was a silly analogy and was waiting for it to be brought up...snakes arent beer or pee geez... anyway hows about the wild type pic FR posted above? looks awfully like funkys cross kinda deflates this whole post dontcha think?
this year will be my first daytona trip lookin foward to meeting everyone and seeing/talking snakes/herps in the flesh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

When I read your post, it reflected my exact thoughts word for word!!!........I couldn't have put it any better if someone paid me $10,000 dollars!

That's EXACTLY what happens ALL THE TIME every successive breeding year!.........anyone that wants to argue that point,.....is simply in the DARK!,...plain and simple!.....it's not anything difficult to understand, like quantum physics either, this should be very simple for folks to understand.

It reminds me of someone's bright idea of releasing Cane Toads(Bufo marinus) into the cane fields of southern florida many decades ago to help eradicate the destructive bugs in the cane crop,...WITHOUT any forethought of what could happen down the road!........funny thing is,......too many hobbyists don't give two craps about "down the road"!,....and of course the OTHER half just don't know any better!

~Doug

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

" too many hobbyists don't give two craps about "down the road"!,....and of course the OTHER half just don't know any better! "

...see Doug..that is a great point. The reason being of course is that the first half of those people want instant gratification. They do not want to wait. They do not want to allow themselves to learn patience. They think only about the " now " and not the broad spectrum of things. The other half just needs to ask questions and learn, which is something we can never stop doing, which is learning.
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Genesis 1:1

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Why would they be different sub-species if they were the same snake? ...
splitters is why. just like they tried to say stripe cali, and banded cali are/were individual ssp. taxonimist trying to justify field work and grants its really sad and very narrow minded imho.
also to say in 8yrs.calkings will have a new look and funky will be to blame is is weak man. if you really beleive that that amel calking and mbk are THAT differant so as to "muddy" the water you are really nieve, how many years have calkings been bred in the hobby? do you really think this cross hasnt been done 8,10,20 years ago? anyone can take those f1's line breed them to either parent ssp. and within a few generations nobody would no the differance not even a diehard purist(how do you think amel floridana came to be?) so that definitively shows how closely related they(caliXmbk) are imho. intergradation between ssp. happens and caliXmbk ranges do cross so come on these are by no means frankensnakes.
what amazes me w/purist is WHY does it matter??? cbb snakes are dead to nature so wtf does it really matter what we breed pure or not? it is destined to a life in a box for our enjoyment/pleasure. and please dont say what about wild lines being tainted from escapes or releases, im sure those would be consumed/absorbed but it is the weakest of all reasons ive heard from purist. whats really funny is through captive hybrid breedings we are now seeing how closely related all ssp.&sp. really are. breed a snake to a snake and you'll get alot of lil snakes,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Dude, are you just kidding or are you being real? if they are all the same then why do we keep both in the hoby? why do people go to shows and walk away with a pair of mbk's and a pair of cal kings? thats 4 snakes and yet they could have had the same thing in just two snakes.
We all know that the amel or lavender or whatever broksi king has cali in it but are you telling me they are the same? just beacuse they will breed doesn't meen they are the same.I have heard of people breeding sheep, does that make us the same as sheep.
I just don't get it.Maybe I am just stuck in this little "nieve" bubble...

I have never thought for a moment that one released or escaped pet would or could thrash a whole population of a sub-specias that took millions of years to get established.
When I said (if it was me??LOL..) that it could tant the wild population what I meant is that lets say joe blw back east comes out west to try his luck at some wild caught locale nimals.He is lucky and finds a nice whatever from whatever locsale.
He goes home and searches to find a match maybe he will never be back there again himself.So he is online,at a pet shop or at a show and he see's a perfect match and its labled as the same locale.WOW, what a score.
Only to find out that when he breeds them some of the babies really llok odd.He gets in touch with the person to see where said snake came from and wow, it came from jim that got his from Funky Monkey...I guess you are right man.It has no impact at all on wild populations.

bye bye now,

L8r

that is so weak it doesnt even deserve a response.
bye bye now
gimme a break,,,,,, WEAK
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>funky's are getula to be exact "pure" getula! ssp. are just regional variences that we label. cali,nigrita,natida,conjuncta,splendida,yumensis same friggin snake man. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
>>-----

Are you "friggin" kidding me?!? I guess someone needs to notify all Sciene teachers that this whole Classification of Living Things is overrated as I guess I just learned that at some point they are just all the same.
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Joe

If you aren't aware - there's a region down in south eastern Arizona where the getula have gene flow from all three subspecies.

See range map 153 in Stebbins 3rd Edition.
In northern Mexico just below the Arizona border, MBKs and Cal Kings have a contact area and probably naturally intergrade.

There's a lot of speculation that the former Baja getula were MBK historically and Cal King influence came down into Baja.

Western getula are western getula, the classification systems we use are for our benefit and getula subspecies were originally described primarily based upon expressed phenotype, before the wonder of DNA analysis.

In fact - striped Cal Kings and Banded Cal Kings used to be different subspecies - I believe the Banded were Lampropeltis getula boylii.

Do you have a problem with all of the aberrant Cal Kings that result from mixing the two? The aberrant Cal Kings seem to have a much smaller survival rate in the wild, as they are not terribly common as adults even in places where both forms exist. So the very pretty and highly desirable aberrant Cal Kings that fetch ooohs and awes here are not representative of the natural species even in the slightest.

What's the difference between them and what I produced?

If in the next few years, the three western getula are reclassified into a single subspecies (or perhaps different species from Eastern getula) - will that taxonomical change alter your opinion on this cross?

What's your opinion on Brooksi x (classic) Floridana? They use to be considered different subspecies as well.

-=-
In the GTP market - there are many breeders who provide a pedigree back to import, noting the locality of the import. You can be careful with GTP without too much effort, even if the ancestry has gone through many breeders.

Same thing is happening in the Corn snake market with the ACR - it's just getting off the ground still, a few big breeders (IE Kathy Love, Joe Pierce) seem to have all or most of their stock registered - though Joe Pierce has stated he often does not register special projects until he is ready to go public.

However - for all the "purity" talk here at this forum - it seems the only getula that come with any kind of pedigree are from a few people who breed their wild caught stock.

Here's a suggestion -

www.iherp.com/

It's a fairly new herp tracking website. While the code isn't as of today completed yet, pedigree tracking is a big part of what that site is trying to accomplish.

Register your animals there - it's currently free to do so. Keep track of who gets in the sac with who, and we can have pedigrees readily available for the purity only folk who are interested in keeping their bloodlines free from contamination.

Of course, you have no way of knowing whether the great great grandfather of your "pure" cal king was a pac gopher or not, the gene flow of that hybrid does happen - in the wild. Rare but happens.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

So is the next person gonna sell these as locale Yuma Kings
to the next customer? Your logic baffles me!
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

If the next person mis-respresents them, that's their bad, not mine.

In fact - by doing the cross and being extremely upfront about it and posting pictures - it makes it easier for people to identify the cross should a scam artist try to pass off intergrades as something new.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

That's like saying that Charles Manson wasn't responsible
for what his followers did. Come on man! The responsability starts with the breeder. That's a pretty chicken sh^t cop out if you ask me.
-Phil
-----
Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

Him and Thomas must be partners!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>> I believe the Banded were Lampropeltis getula boylii

And they were called "Boyle's Milk Snake"

The Reptiles of Western North America: An Account of the Species Known to ...
By John Van Denburgh

(from a google search)
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Thomas,
It's kind of amusing watching you pretend to be
a highly educated expert on Lampropeltis!
It's kinda funny how people can twist their philosophies
around to justify their own agenda. That's one thing
that politicians, and religion have in common. LOL!!!!
If your gonna start this argument, you need to compare
apples to apples and oranges to oranges. For one thing,
all of the cambelli in the U.S. can be traced back to
a very few imported animals, that unfortunately, no longer
resemble their founding stock. The same has happened with thayeri. A locale specific "look", ssp. or not, desserves to be
kept true, if it is within our means. In your crazy corner
of the world, all that would exist, in captivity would be
L.g.nigra X L.g.getula X L.g.floridana or whatever that was
you produced this season. So are you saying that it would be okay to breed old world elaphe with new world elaphe? Come on kids! They're all just one big happy family in Thomas' pocket book! Enjoy those Carpondros Thomas!

-Phil

"Every once in a while, even the gene pool could use a little chlorine!"
-----
Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

well phil your opinion really means alot to me, thanks alot for such a contribution to this thread and the hobby in general.
you rock!
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Funny Shannon, I was thinking the same thing. All in all they're good looking snakes.

reako45

First, let me stretch......It's been a while ya know. (Yawwwnnnnn). (scratch arse....), ahhh good, I'm awake and back after being in SOLITARY. FunkyRes, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?! All I can do is SCREAM like ol' Sam Kinison....AAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! No, no, no..... didn't you learn any better than that. Book 'em Shannon..... but sadly (insert violin....), (add a Kleenex)....the ones who suffer most are the sock-head conjunctas you created. Why not insert glow-in-the-dark ink like they do with the tropical fishies and vendor in Japan -- they like that flashy stuff man.

Jerry Kruse a.k.a "Mr. Pinched" to all my guido posse....haya dooin'....

Had the female I used been some rare species, locality, or morph - I could understand. She's a banded amel Cal King.

There is no shortage of "pure" Cal Kings - either in captivity or the wild. Collection of "pure" locality Cal Kings is still permitted throughout most of their range (I think only Oregon and Colorado have a problem with it). There's no shortage of banded Cal Kings or amel Cal Kings.

Had I used something like an Outer Banks Eastern for the female - I could understand some people genuinely having a problem with it. But the female is about as common as they come.

The male used doesn't matter - breeding him with her doesn't preclude breeding him with a female of his own subspecies - but even so, he's an MBK and they are also fairly common in the pet trade.

What I produced are pet snakes, the same thing most breeders produce.

As far as improper identification - I'm not improperly identifying them. If someone in the future identifies them as something they are not, that's their bad - not mine.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Funky,

I'm not trying to sway you one way or another as to what you do with your snakes. But I have preached before and I will continue to do so about the overall INTEGRITY of the species/subspecies. Mutts have their own forum. So with all due respect, that would be the appropriate place to drop this kind of posting. Glad the babies are healthy and all, but this would just not happen in reality. Hope you understand my point and would work to keep things pure. If you need a stud Cal king or dam nigrita, they're cheap enough that I'd buy one for you for the animal's sake.

Jerry Kruse

>>"As far as improper identification - I'm not improperly identifying them. If someone in the future identifies them as something they are not, that's their bad - not mine"

You just identified the very problem that WILL happen down the line!....that is EXACTLY what will happen. It's not just THOSE particular snakes will be confused by many later on, it's ALL their offspring too that will end up being bred to anything similar to create yet MORE mutt snakes that end up in collections and being bred to more still. All this practice does is help dilute the other pure forms that are in the hobby.

Of course this is something that too many people today don't think matters at all, and they just don't seem to grasp the "big picture", they just want to see what sort of "look" they can produce. Then after that project gets old(not long at all), they move onto another ridiculous pairing that srves no purpose either.

Everyone thinks that "their" project will be sold and represented honestly,...when the fact is as soon as those mutt snakes leave the vending table, they(or most), and the offspring they will later create, will simply end up being sold later on as whatever they "best" represent.

I see this type of scenario ALL the time.......the buyer doesn't quite recall what combination he/she was told it was by the seller,....no records are kept, another buyer only remembers "part" of what they were told at best,....uhhh, so and so told me they were this or that......then later get on the forum and post a pic, and ask..."what is this?"..LOL!...that's the "problem". If you cant tell what species or subspecies a snake is by looking at it,.....THERE'S A PROBLEM!

So to sum this up,...your statement about it being..."someone else's bad - not mine",...is actually ass backwards!,.....it IS YOUR BAD!, because their true identity WILL be uncertain as they are sold to whoever, and bred to whatever in the future.

If everyone in this hobby had tons of experience, and could tell what they were looking at at the drop of a hat, that would be one thing,..but this certainly ISN'T the case..LOL!

If the snakes looked VERY distinct, and they just SCREAMED a cross of some kind, they wouldn't be such an immediate threat per se(although future breedings certainly could depending on what they were bred with), it's when a snake looks VERY similar to something it isn't that makes a big problem, such as those you produced.

Please don't take all this as a personal assault, I'm just trying to explain how the dynamics of all this in the hobby realistically evolves, that's all.

The bottom line is if an experienced person with adiscerning eye CAN'T tell what species/subspecies something is ,...that will create the problem later on, guaranteed.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Amen Doug,
Mark my words that we will see a "albino" mex mex pop up in the next few years that somebody produced.And it will look like a pure mex mex.
The reason I say this is that (I probably can't mention the name of the place because its probably a violation of the T.O.S.)a few years back there were a few mex mex for sale that were het amel from of coarse the ruthveni gene.They had hardly any ruthveni look to them at all and if bred back just once you would never know.I havn't seen them around for a while but rest assured they will just pop up pretty soon.

L8r

Unfortunately, ......I'd say you're absolutely right about that, good buddy!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

If all the kingsnakes from the west are the same. The from from south of the border are the same too. That makes them PURE albino mex mexs DDUUHH!! I even figuered that one out. Jees the ignorance of some people. I glad I could help educate you on this subject because you just didn't seem to be getting it. Whatever it is we will find out.. maybe. Oh and the kings from the east are the same to just a little fyi.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

sticticeps ARE the exact same thing as south Florida brooksi!,...they are just from a TOTALLY different location, and look TOTALLY different,..that's all!...LOL!

I have to wonder why all those taxonomist's wasted all their time painstakingly describing all the minute differences between them for all these hundreds of years, when we have so-called "experts" here on the forum that claim they are all one in the SAME!..hahahha!

Also, just in case you didn't know,..a Lion is the exact same thing as a tiger,...they just come from totally different geographical locations,....that's all!...one has stripes, and the other one has a big mane!...who needs science anyway?!..

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I have to wonder why all those taxonomist's wasted all their time painstakingly describing all the minute differences between them for all these hundreds of years, when we have so-called "experts" here on the forum that claim they are all one in the SAME!..hahahha!

Because very often, the samples they looked at were extremely limited - and specimens that match the scale rows, ring counts, etc. are often found in what is suppose to be a different population.

Furthermore, very often they find that it is really only a few genes responsible for the radically different phenotypes.

I do think Eastern getula are distinctively different from Western getula, but I do think nigrita is really just a melenistic splendida and I would not be surprised if at some point in the future, all western getula become the same subspecies or even get split out from getula to make a new species, "Western Kingsnake"

I'm still though not opposed to hybrids, even if the western kings really are just different pattern phases of the same thing.

This is a hobby, and different people breed for different reasons and collect different things.

If you only like locale animals, only buy locale animals. If you don't like intergrades and hybrids, buy from breeders you trust to properly represent what they have.

This isn't rocket science.
Different strokes for different folks.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

I really appreciate your taking the time to straighten me out on the differences!

I was making a VERY sarcastic remark to my friend Charlie in regards to the taxonomy remark. I wasn't aware that a came across to you as such a novice, after all, I only have a very limited 41 years of in depth snake experience,...what about you?

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Please don't take it personally.

Please note that I came in here and posted pics of what I thought was a neat project.

Those who disagreed decided to make the thread into a big debate - and I don't mind that, I'm all for people expressing their opinions and discussing their points of view.

However - if anyone has a right to be pissed, I think it's me - I didn't post these pics to start an argument, I didn't do this cross to tick anyone off, yet multiple people took the opportunity to use this thread to vent about how evil they feel it is to cross two snakes that taxonomists have decided should have different latin names.

I'm not pissed, nor am I taking it personally, so please don't take any of my responses personally.

Thank you.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

You should of expected the people that contribute on this forum to give a backlash. Is this the first time it's happened? NO way, that's why there is a hybrid forum where mutts or gems are welcomed.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

I did expect backlash - and I'm not complaining about it.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

ok It just seemed like it.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

Doug,

I couldn't have said it better myself.
I've seen the scenarios you've mentioned many times.
Resellers will sell anything to anybody and most beginning hobbyists don't know any better.

Tim

Exactly Tim,......I'm glad you and some other's see it the same way too.

later, man!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

So does a MBK x Cal king cross make a splendida or are these called gems as well?
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

It doesn't make a splendida - but their pattern does look like a mix of splendida and cal king to me, especially on their sides.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

So what else would you mix with to make a splendida?
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

apparently any snake from the western hemisphere!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

yeah, I guess all Getula are the same.I would try a little outer banks cause they kinda have that look.I bet you could create a smoking ass splendita.People would line up for them man.
Put me down for 2.3. Are they locale?

At least it will be much simpler to keep records when everything is listed as USA or Americas for local. lol
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Randy Whittington

So if I breed a oreo pueblen than will I have 50/50 banded cal kings? I am not sure about all this genetic info but I am tired of not being the one to produce all the cool stuff. Since all the kings from the west are the same the ones from the east must be the same too. I am going to breed my axanthic whitesided florida king to one or all of my hatteras outer banks!!! How bout them kingsnakes!! or gems!!!
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

....they have that axanthic Splendida look to them.
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Diego

I don't know if I like the offspring or the purple gravel more. Tough call. NOT! lol
On a serious note though I hate to see it.
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Randy Whittington

I agree with Doug. If you like doing that sort of thing, fine, but it causes lots of problems because it opens doors for dishonest people down the road.
My personal opinion, for what it's worth, is why on earth would you want to do something like that.

will mis-represent their animals regardless of whether or not I threw my Cal King female in with my MBK male.

And the dishonest people will sing the purity song, so that buyers are convinced they are getting the real deal from them.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

"And the dishonest people will sing the purity song, so that buyers are convinced they are getting the real deal from them."

Yes, they will. Because you opened the door for them.

I think the snakes are interesting, from a science experiment point of view, but unless you can track down every hatchling and their successive progeny it's just a bad scenario.
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Diego

Because I opened the door for them?

I did nothing to trick these snakes into breeding.
In fact, before they bred, I had been handling the female and then went to change his water dish. He grabbed my hand and started jerking his body like crazy.

She wasn't a different species to him, she was a very desirable female ready to breed.

My having done the cross does not open the door for the dishonest people - this isn't a difficult cross to do. No bait and switch trickery or anything of the sort is required.

If you can breed cal kings you can do this cross - it's not like the dishonest people have to wait for some honest bozo to do the cross for them.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

So, what you're saying is, as long as the two snakes that get thrown into the enclosure breed willingly without trickery,.....then it's all good?

I know exactly what "viborero"(Diego) meant by his remark about opening up the door,.....because you did!,....those snakes you produced, and the vast majority of their offspring are destined to be misidentified from now on, whether you tell a buyer exactly what the cross was or NOT!...key word....LATER!!!.....not next week, not next month,...but years later!........out of sight, out of mind,..right??,......WRONG!.....simple as that!

In your own words,..."it's not rocket science"!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

No - to be honest, I don't even mind the bait and switch pairings as long as the offspring are fairly represented. However, if a bait and switch pairing is likely to result in offspring that have detrimental conditions due to incompatible genetics - then I don't think it should be done.

My only point was that in this case, even the male kingsnake didn't see the female as something he shouldn't mate with - he saw her as an incredibly suitable mate for passing on his genes.

We currently classify them as different subspecies. That latin nomenclature however is just that - a classification system we use for our purposes. The snakes don't give a damn how we classify them.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

>> "The snakes don't give a damn how we classify them."

Very true!,....many snakes also don't give a damn what species/suubspecies they BREED with either!

And by the same token,....many snake breeders don't give a damn what two snakes they breed together either,...which is the very point of all this.

Some people understand why this isn't a good idea, and some don't, and never will........oh well,..I tried my best.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

No doubt he saw her as a suitable mate. Any animal is like that. Heck almost everything I see in a skirt is dam near suitable. I say alsmost because there is some fellows in skirts around these parts but the snakes are what they are. No matter what name they have until we change that. While you say it is out of your hands when someone else misrepresents these crosses. You wrong. It was in your hand when you put them together, incubated the eggs,and sold the feeding offspring.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

Do you blame Smith and Wesson when someone steals a firearm and holds up a liquor store, or do you blame the guy who stole the firearm?
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I decided my old sig was too big.

I just LOVE the way people try to twist things around, and make all sorts of analogies that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic at hand whatsoever!

If you want a cute analogy, how's this one......."your mutt offspring are very much like a Smith & Wesson,....they will certainly do some damage when carelessly released into the general public.

Why do you think Lamborghini doesn't put Chevy parts on their cars??...it's because they don't belong there!, that's why!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Yep,I love the car analogy there Doug. Just because it fits....
Good stuff Maynard...

L8r

I'm Maynard you silly ass......let's get started on the huck-a-buck thing again. Funky will be Sinatra, etc etc etc.... hah!

Pinch

Let me be Maynard for a while!..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Ohhhhhhh...........okayyyyyyyyyyyy. But just for today Doug.

HEY!!! My kids are a German and Filipino cross. Now THOSE are some cute mutts smack dab in the Pine Barrens.

Jerry Kruse
" alt="Image">

LOL!!!,......cute little whipper snappers!

take care!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

So if I'm understanding you, it's ok for a black man and a white woman to have children who in turn have children with say an asian... isn't that some serious locality mixing?

and I'm assuming you'd find it ok to mix a german shepherd with say an australian shepherd, or a beagle with a springer spaniel?
I mean, sometimes you end up with puppies that look like one or the other, or something else that are misrepresented ...

But its not ok to mix an mbk with a cali?...

I'm not tryin to be an a$$, I'm just having trouble following you...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 German Shep mix (Shadow)
0.1 Cat (Echo)

While it is "locality" mixing - there are no subspecies of homo sapien, we are all the same thing.

In fact - I saw some thing I think it was on Discovery channel that claimed virtually every human population has within its gene pool the ability to make every other "race". The difference is what genes are more predominant in the local gene pool and what genes are more likely to be found together.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

regardless, back to my question about the puppies... I don't see how breeding snakes is any different then dogs or cats or horses... Other then, with those animals, there are pedigrees to trace back to prove your animal is what your saying it is...

AS for your cross, I think they're neat looking and I'm not seeing a problem with it... its not like your tryin to pass them off as something they're not... In fact, if my mother wouldn't be very likely to have a fit about me getting another snake, I'd be sending you a PM askin about gettin one of those from you...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 German Shep mix (Shadow)
0.1 Cat (Echo)

"I'd be sending you a PM askin about gettin one of those from you..."

Maggie, for a moment there I thought you were almost going to ask me to adopt one of my kids! Ha!

What we have done with animals, particularly dogs, it is ALL WRONG. Humans (homo sapiens for Funky) seem to have this desire to alter natural things to suit their liking. Sad, but true. Take a look around you honey. Rainforests? Ozone layer (secondary to human creations)? And a myriad of other examples I just don't have time to rattle off. Look at all the dog breeds that have things wrong with them?! They did not choose that for themselves, it was human influence. Does ANYONE agree with this?!?!?!?!

Pinch

Domestic dogs are all the same species. So are domestic horses. By not seeing anything wrong with crossing genera, species and subspecies of snakes you illustrate your lack of understanding as to what's going on in regards to breeding.

Tim

As this is OUR decision to engage in interracial affairs. This intellectualization is going nowhere. Like I said to Maggie who still has yet to find a shred of evidence that what we're doing is serious, when snakes once again sprout legs and make these decisions for themselves, I will remain silent. Until then I remain on the cusp of solitary once again. I just don't understand the rationale to hybridize animals. Maybe you can explain it to us again, as I'm speaking for the masses here.

Jerry Kruse

When snakes sprout legs to make these kinds of decisions for themselves, let me know so then we can then have this conversation. Anyone esle want to waste energy on this?

Jerry Kruse

So what's your opinion on the selectively bred Cal King morphs that are a result of intentionally crossing localities and variable wild phenotypes?
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I decided my old sig was too big.

SIR, what are you doing. My issue was with the intentional hybridization of two separate ssp of snakes, having NOTHING to do with the interbreeding of "looks" within the SAME line of animals. Am I all for it? No. Reverse psychology stuff -- not working here. Let's just try and keep things pure is all I can say going forward. But if you have this "desire" to hybridize, then you do whatcha need to do. What we don't know won't hurt us I guess. It's all good man -- big hugs.

Jerry

they are ALL cal kings and nobody claims them to be locale or hybrids.

L8r

Not sure. Which one of these guys made the mutts?
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

lol. I meant you opened the door for the dishonest people to mis-represent your snakes down the line. Although I guess in a sense, you did open the cage door...

Look, I am not the morality police and I wasn't trying to tell you what's right and what's wrong. This is still America and if you want to breed your snakes, you are free to do so in any way you choose. I was simply trying to point out that everything we breed in this hobby has repercussions down the line once the offspring have left our care, good or bad. I know we can't be responsible for what other people do, but that doesn't absolve us of a certain culpability for releasing these animals into the hobby in the first place.

Just my thoughts, and I really am not trying to rag on you.
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Diego

"If you can breed cal kings you can do this cross - it's not like the dishonest people have to wait for some honest bozo to do the cross for them."

We don't need to wait -- he's already here. Very sad defense and a waste of time in my opinion. I thought this would end but after all this energy I'm seeing, it's safe to say that nothing is going to sway FunkyResidue. The name says it all. And Funky, try reading a bit of Darwin and respect the powers-that-be at this point. At least in this forum anyway. It's not about whether the snake got excited and you swooped down to help get them off and "whatever". You have such a cool demeanor about this but you are compromising the integrity of the snakes. Why are you being so damn selfish man? The location of nigrita and California kingsnakes DO NOT overlap anywhere last I was aware. Agreed on that? Then why do you so non-chalantly go and throw animals together that have no business creating such bastard progenies? Think a little deeper about this Funk. And try the veal.......I'm here til Thursday.

Jerry Kruse ("Pinch"

I was going to post about the bozo thing! Well at least he admits that much.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

I have not done anything dishonest.
I stated exactly what I did to get these neonates and presented them as a cross. There is absolutely nothing dishonest about that.

I also have not played silly word games with other peoples names, well maybe in the 3rd grade, but not recently, and I hope I've been as civil as I can be in this discussion.

Let's try to keep the discussion that way - civil.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

I for one never said you were dishonest,...I said those offspring will later be misidentified, and help dilute even further pure lines that are in captive collections, ...this is fact!, simple as that. The correct label as to what those are, or their offspring are, etc...will not be stuck on their backs very long,........that's when the problem arises!...they will be sold by in the hobby as what they BEST represent!.....this is what happens,...just as surely as the sun rises tomorrow!.

That said,..what happens when even more breeders take the same attitude about it(of which there are many)....see the pattern here?..........I'm running out of ways to explain this!..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

They will only dilute pure lines with breeders who do not care about purity to begin with.

If purity is a concern, then breeders of pure stock should provide their stock with adequate pedigrees, because without the family tree of your snake, you really don't know if it is pure or not.

Another poster (I believe I know who but in case my memory is faulty I won't name him) in the past has pointed out that quite a few of the old big breeders did hybrid projects in the back room without telling anyone. Some of them came clean later on, but there are undoubtedly others who have not come clean.

Do you not find it odd how many Lampros out there happen to have amel morphs that happen to be allelic with Cal King amel?

If you don't know the pedigree of your snake then you can not claim it is "pure". Keep breeding records, preferably in a publicly accessible database, and buyers of your stock will know what went into the young you produce, and can continue the pedigree themselves when they breed and pass on the young.

If breeders are willing to do that, there's not a problem because you can look up the ancestry of stock and seek "pure" specimens. If breeders are not willing to do that, then they have no one but themselves to blame for the questionable status of pure looking snakes.

If I wanted four generations of pedigree for a baby kingsnake, how difficult do you think it would be for me to find a breeder that could provide that?

I bet very few breeders could, and most of those that could only could because they owned all four generations.

That's where the problem lies. Without proper record keeping, you really don't know. Period.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

I've had enough of this nonsense!,.....it's quite obvious I, along with ALL the other's were just wasting our time posting any of this. I pretty much expected this though, it's all too common.

To follow through with the pointless breeding combination you did in the FIRST place tells me you just don't understand the situation, and never will.

I would have had better luck with a brick wall!

bye bye now!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I already gave up man.
L8r

You were much smarter than I was!..LOL!

Im going to bed!

later bro!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

nice nigrita x Cal king. LOL....... That's a real FUNKY snake.

Jerry Kruse *PINCH*

Oh I understand your point - I just don't think it is a big deal.

A snake that is a pet is a pet, it doesn't matter what went into it.

If purity is your thing, buy documented locality animals as close to WC as you can get - and you'll avoid man made intergrades.

That's a concept you don't seem to get.

The market does not and should not only cater to one point of view.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

>> "That's a concept you don't seem to get"

The part here about ME not understanding is absolutely comical!..hahaha!

What's your next so-called "project" to introduce into the hobby?

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>> "A snake that is a pet is a pet, it doesn't matter what went into it."

* HELLO!!!!!!!!,......if they were all sterilized before you sold them, only then would it NOT matter!,.....OTHERWISE, they, and ALL the future offspring produced from that day forward will be bred by many people.

I only wish you faught this hard to breed true species/ subspecies as described by taxonomy, and not fight tooth & nail trying to justify the production of more junk mutts!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I only wish you faught this hard to breed true species/ subspecies as described by taxonomy

Taxonomy is a man made construct, and it's a man made construct that changes.

It use to be phenotype that differentiated species and subspecies. Now it seems to primarily be mtDNA.

There are numerous cases where snakes of different phenotype are found via mtDNA to be the same thing. There are also cases where snakes of identical phenotype via mtDNA are found to be different.

Earlier this year - a paper was published suggesting that Rosy Boas in Southern California need a further split - based solely on mtDNA. If that holds up, there will be a lot of Rosy Boas in the trade that people use to think were pure that now are crosses. All because the human defined construct of how the species is split up changed.

L getula, as I'm sure you are well aware, was defined back before the current trend of using mtDNA. What currently is L g californiae use to be 5 different subspecies - including the two in Baja, Yuma phase, banded and striped.

It would not surprise me one bit if they found the baja populations actually are not pure L g californiae but are in fact a large natural intergrade zone that has since had its gene flow from nigrita split off. If that is the case, then anyone who has bred a conjuncta or nitida to a Cal King currently thinking they are pure will actually have produced a cross.

Our man made constructs are not perfect and they do change.

Purity really means absolutely nothing if it is not a locality animal, what is pure today could very easily be a cross tomorrow as our constructs change. And our constructs undoubtedly will change multiple times in the future.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

the reaosn their is no reply to the above message is that it is true and no one has a valid statement against it!
point...to funky
adam
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

What's your next so-called "project" to introduce into the hobby?

Since you asked -

The next one that really excites me is an attempt to improve Caramel corns by outcrossing with Abbott Okeetee's to hopefully widen the borders and *maybe* intensify the yellow background color.

I also will be breeding one of my Cal King girls (daughter of the mother of these) back to her father to try and get a line with thick webbing in the crossbands - she's a gorgeous black with vibrant yellow crossbands with webbing, her Daddy is a WC brown with cream bands with crossbands in the webbing.

I'm also working on trying to bring the lavender gene into the Redding locale phenotype - we have very pretty wild Cal Kings here in Redding, I think their phenotype with the lavender gene would be gorgeous.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Hey I'm as much a "purist" as many of you but I gotta agree with Funky on the point of keeping better records. I want to discourage the crossing too but he's right about that genie being way out of the bottle now. You guys made some good ponts and should continue to explain your position but also insist on better labeling and histories for anyone making purity claims. This issue will just get worse as our collections become further removed from founder stock. and with the price of fuel, habitat degradation and increasing regulation, I don't think Doug and I are going to find too many more Apalachicola kings or top-notch brooksi in the future. Heck, they may even do away with the canefields in a few years.
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Lindsay Pike
Urotopia Uromastyx

"I don't think Doug and I are going to find too many more Apalachicola kings or top-notch brooksi in the future. Heck, they may even do away with the canefields in a few years."

What you stated drives our point in even further. And THAT is why we are so adamant about defending our position here. This IS what we are trying to do, but then THIS crap comes along and what are we supposed to do? Say "nice mutt"?!?! Let's all start a forum for Cockapoos and Labradoodles, why not cross guinea pigs with ferrets so that they don't stink? Hey, "it's just a pet and they wanted to breed....no harm right"? Oh, and here's the cake topper y'all -- why not assist a pig with a goose, then pigs really and truly will fly!!!!!!!!!!!! This may sound "childish" as FUNKMasterFlex stated, but this is what we have to resort to to drive the point home as more eloquent, educated modalities are not working. It's almost like getting down on that level to reach an understanding. Whew! Okay everyone, cookies and milk will be served after lunch.

Jerry Kruse (Cell Block H)

The part I don't get is why are all the "powers that be" railing against something they would never put in their collections in the first place? C'mon, I am a locality breeder and have morphs as well, but I KNOW where I got my locality snakes from because of the small circle of close friends that I choose to buy from, but almost exclusively all my breeders are from w.c. I personally have collected or were present when said snake was caught. You KNOW you wouldn't put one of these snakes or any other in your personal collection without a thorough background check, and wouldn't even consider it if you didn't feel certain it was what it was. In Funky's case, he did identify on a public forum what it was he did and it is out there for the world to see. If you don't want any crosses to be viewed on this forum, I suggest you not praise a lot of snakes here that might be questionable. Otherwise, enjoy what people post if not for the information's sake.
While what he has done may/will or may/will not end up polluting anyone elses gene pool hasn't been proven. Some people will buy these snakes and others won't. If you don't like it, say so and be done with it, this type of rant and name-calling is very juvenile, and even so, Funky, there IS a forum for these guys, maybe it would have been better received there but you have been forthright throughout the whole thing.
Anyone that would buy into a snake of questionable lineage deserves to have their gene pool contaminated, lol!

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Todd Hughes

has to be considered man, and I'm not completely disagreeing with you. Those newer guys who come into this hobby likely do not have the resources or experience that we "more established" folk do. I have seen, as I'm sure you have, far too many times where some proud novice owner of a brand new "alterna" that posts a pic of his prized pet/investment only to get RIPPED in that the animal is identified as a mutt. Am I wrong? And it is the work of hybridization that continues to facilitate this unfortunate non-sense. That's why there is no support in it. It's all very simple, but the empty justifications and weak defenses still do not override the fact that animals that do not belong intergraded SHOULD remain as such with their integrity maintained intact.

Jerry Kruse

If Arizona "cal" kings and mbk" splendidas' ranges overlap, and they breed in the wild, what are we talking about???
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Todd Hughes

while possible but more than likely improbable that a striped albino calking can/would mate with an mbk/dark splendida, it doesn't change the fact that Funky stated on a public forum what he did so the info is there. Many, MANY other people in good standing create morphs and crosses and don't get the a$$ chewing you guys laid down on this dude. I am in agreement that if I didn't see/catch a naturally occurring morph myself or seen it caught, I personally wouldn't have it in my collection for breeding for sell to the public. That is just my stance, but no one here has the right to bash anyone for doing their own thing legally, you can voice your opinion but DANG, that was a whole lot of uncalled for a$$ whoopin' you guys dealt out to just ONE (or two)individual(s) on this forum that is chock full of Dr. Frankensnakesters. Anyway, it would be a shame for a kid to get a herp thinking it one thing and finding out later they didn't get what they paid for. Life is tough and buyer beware and all that. That is why some places have reputable dealers advertised and it is a good thing to get to know your intended breeder before buying off the cuff. Much is to be said for honesty, and that is what is being questioned here, but, Funky told the truth, like his snakes or not, so he is at no fault other than disappointing some of you guys. i really like mbk' and splendida type morphs and have a variety, but I wouldn't cross them into anything, but many of the locality guys wouldn't buy some of my naturally occurring snakes because they are "ugly", compared to a "textbook" splendida or holbrooki. Wait 'till Brian Hubb's book comes out. I bet it has some serious shockers for the locality guys, lol! Brewster county, Texas "textbook", Arizona splendy from north Tucson phenotype, Calhoun county, Texas possible intergrade but I suspect this is what they really look like here. Cause a speck from Calhoun comes next...

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Todd Hughes

Here's two specks from adjoining counties and a possible intergrade or just a very wild looking splendida. You judge, all locality but all totally different. Would you buy the "morph" or intergrade? Why or why not? It is locality and it is pure. A Calhoun county, Texas "textbook" super lemon yellow speck female....
A Refugio county, Texas buff colored but more evenly speckled speck....
A "mutt"/possible intergrade or maybe, just maybe a real live bonafide splendida with a locality phenotype from this area...
She doesn't look as good as 1 or 2 but guess what? She was caught in the EXACT same place as the eggs I collected and John and I hatched girl #1 from, only 6 feet away. I have many of these "mutts" as they aren't mutts but the real splendida phenotype of this area or an intergrade which I don't buy. but can't prove as yet. As Frank stated in an above post, there can be many phenotypes, or morphs, within a locality, so to put an exact look on things and call them that isn't completely true, but we must call them something right? So that's where my brand of locality comes in...these are getula from blah, blah, blah county, Texas, or wherever. All I am trying to say is, if I were to put #1 and #3 together or #@ and #3 together, and tell everyone on here I did so, I would more than likely get a bashing for doing it. Know what? Doesn't matter and shouldn't unless YOU bought them from ME and had a problem later on down the line. With my c.b from w.c. animals, comes the only pedigree you need. Come with me and I will show you where your founding stock came from, if you can't, you'll have to take my word for it, as it is in all cases. I am sure that Funky will follow through and properly label his animals for sale, something that I can't say for a lot of people that founded some of our colonies.
1st pic Refugio co. male adult
2nd pic Calhoun co. female adult splendida/possible intergrade
3rd pic Calhoun co. female subadult textbook holbrooki

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Todd Hughes