Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with buying/owning/selling a Leo that has flaws... they need good, loving homes and care just like any other one!!! Certainly a minor cosmetic flaw like a kinked tail is nothing that should concern anyone in regard to the health of the gecko or the pleasure it gives to have one, or the overall beauty of the morph!

BUT! In my honest, personal opinion as a responsible breeder, I would not knowingly or intentionally breed any one of my geckos who has a genetic defect. I feel I have an ethical and professional obligation not only to my customers, but to the Leopard Gecko species itself to produce the highest quality offspring that is possible.

Please do not confuse genetic defects with congenital defects. Genetic defects are those that are passed on from the parents to the offspring, or inherited. Congenital defects are those that are caused by external, or developmental factors such as incubation heat fluctuations and nutritional deficiencies in the mother during egg development. It is the defects that are considered "inherent", or genetic, that should be taken into consideration when making decisions on breeding animals.

Leopard Gecko breeding should not be compared to human "breeding." People choose who they want to procreate with based on their own individual qualites and values. We do not euthanize "flawed" human beings, or promote ethnic cleansing... it is immoral! We love and care for imperfect offspring just the same. In some ways, our offspring with both genetic and congenital defects can be even more special to us.

But consider this example... Reputable AKC dog breeders are now starting to issue "limited" or "restricted" registration for their puppies when they know they are PET quality dogs. This means that you will not be able to get your dog resistered unless it is spayed or neutered. If you breed your dog anyway, you will not be able to register the litter.

What does this mean? Well, it means that only the BEST quality dogs will be allowed to reproduce and propagate the species. It does not mean that "pet quality" animals are not loved or wanted, it just means that to keep the integrity of the breed up to the highest possible standards, certain animals should not be allowed to breed. That's all.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

This following is a post not in response to this post. I have an unprecedented amount of repect for Marcia. She is an absolutley wonderful lady. This following post is in regards to the thread started by Alpha Omega. I would have posted it lower with the origional thread, but I fear that It would not be read, seeing how it has been shifted to the second page already. I just wanted to clear some stuff with y'all.

REMEMBER THIS IS NOT A RESPONSE TO MARCIA'S (very well written)LETTER!!!

I, in no way, meant to COMPARE human reproduction with that of a leopard gecko. I did not mean to elude that "unattractive" people are loved any less, that they have a harder time, should be euthanized, and i ESPECIALLY am not talking about ethnically cleansing the human race. I am not Hitler.

I was merely trying to use an example that I thought people would understand. I was saying Pretty Pretty=Pretty(generally); Pretty Flawed=Pretty(with high chances of flaws). Also, I am not talking "pretty" by my individual standards, I was refering to the general public's view (a reason that I did not use individual references). Possibly, had I said it that way, it would have been easier to understand.

In no way did I mean to sound vein, or cold hearted. I guess I merely failed to state my case, and caused a lot of confusion in the mentime. Sorry for using a bad example. Maybe I would have been better off, talking about species of cats, or snakes... I just figured taht people would be most responsive to a VERY broad statement about humans and appearances.

I also did not mean that unattractive people should not reproduce. it's not my place to say ANYHTING of the sort. I was just saying that when you breed pretty to ugly, you will loose some of the attractiveness and bring out more flaws. I am not calling leos with kinked tails "ugly" either. I just figured taht it would have caused even MORE controversy had I refered to a person with downs syndrome instead of an "ugly" person.

Never did I say that these Leos do not deserve to live. Every creature, no matter HOW it's born, deserves a chance at life (unless that life is one of strictly pain and agony. Hopefully you UNDERSTAND what I mean when I say that, if you don't please e-mail me directly and I will explain). I think that any leo, kinked tail, or no is a great pet, just not to breed.

In no way did I ever mention how loved someone would be, and actually I am VERY offended by many of the posts regarding the way people interpreted my posts. I am offended because people actually thought that I would say these horrible things. Many people twisted my words around, and for that I am sorry. I should have made myself clearer.

Maybe I should stop posting opinion on here, because obviously, it can get me into trouble and just push things further than they need to go. because of all the negative feedback I have recieved, and some of the VERY hurtful e-mails I have recieved, I am stopping posting on here. I will ask the occasional question, but I will aviod posting as much as possible. Sorry to have inconvienced all of you, and offended you with my "horribly rude and uncalled for" posts.

Kevin M. Loughran.
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Kev
1.1.0 Tang Leopard Geckos: Marley, Mary
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko: Toad
0.1.0 Colombian Rainbow Boa: Rambo
1 Beta: Malificent
0.1.0 Tri Australian Shepard: Nelly

you can report them for by pressing the report abuse button...
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Josh
My Email

"If someone sent you a hurtful/nasty e-mail through kingsnake, then...
you can report them for by pressing the report abuse button..."

Done, done, and done.... Thanks!

Kev
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Kev
1.1.0 Tang Leopard Geckos: Marley, Mary
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko: Toad
0.1.0 Colombian Rainbow Boa: Rambo
1 Beta: Malificent
0.1.0 Tri Australian Shepard: Nelly

don't stop posting. i think most of us understood where you were coming from on that people thing. maybe it was the ugly people who were offended!! jk, that cant be it, as i wasn't offended....
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your head will collapse, but there's nothing in it, and you'll ask yourself, "where is my mind"

if you have AIM, IM me at chichandoCONrosa

I really wasnt offended by it, I just disagreed with it.
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Josh
My Email

Thanks, of course I'm gunna stay. like y'all could ever get me outta HERE. I must log onto this forum like 4-5 times a day. you almost HAVE to to get through all the posts.

I'll be talkin to ya!

kev
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Kev
1.1.0 Tang Leopard Geckos: Marley, Mary
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko: Toad
0.1.0 Colombian Rainbow Boa: Rambo
1 Beta: Malificent
0.1.0 Tri Australian Shepard: Nelly

I haven't read the entire AlphaOmega-kinked tail spiel, but I guess I'll have to go back and see what I missed.

I actually think you're one of the more entertaining personalities on this forum, and it would be a shame to see you go.
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Lovin' would be easy if your colors were like my dreams...

I missed the first set of postings but from reading your current post i would suggest you stick around. Many people misinterpret others words and their responces based on misinterpretation is no reason for you to leave.

Making a reference to humans in the hope that people would understand your point is acceptable and i completely understood what you meant. I work with developmentally/physically challenged adults and i love all of my clients deeply. They provide me great joy (and sometimes great heartache) but i respect them for overcoming the challenges they face daily. The same rings true for any living being on earth.

Leopard geckos, dogs anything deserve a chance at life, no matter what flaws they may have. I do agree that keeping a strong gene base is very important since we (humans) are intruding into the natural world so much that we have destroyed so many living creatures, and still threaten to destroy more. Keeping a strong captive population might prove helpful in reintroducing a threatened species back to the wild with a good chance at survival.

True, i am unaware that leopard geckos are a threatened species but breeding only the strong is like a preventative measure in my opinion in case the worst arrises.

I hope you stick around and continue to add to the conversations and questions of the forum

Red
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1.0 crested gecko
1.0 leopard gecko
(hoping to get 1.0 blizzard, 0.2 patternless)
1.0 papillion (small dog)
2.0 bettas
and 2 very annoying younger brothers LOL

this isn't really about leos, but I just wanted to remind people that breeders used to KILL white boxers, because the color is undesirable. That is wrong. I think that if the babies are born, then they should be able to be alive. but if you have the option to breed an undesirable trait, or illness, disease, whatever, you should do the WORLD, animal and humans, a favor, and not. yeah.
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1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Super Hypo-Tangerine Carrot tail
0.1.1 Whites Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Huge Black Cat
0.1.0 Cocker Spaniel
0.1.0 Brittany
0.0.1 Brother

That is immoral but it is also immoral with the breeding of some types of dogs. There is even a group trying to get white doberman pincers recognized by the AKC and it has since been proven that these dogs have severe health risks and almost never live ordinary lives. The fact that some people purposely breed this unhealthy morph is not ethical.

Kev,

There is no doubt in my mind that every one on this forum is here because we love our Leopard Geckos, and we all can respectfully acknowlegde each other's POV without always agreeing. Please accept my apoligies if my own comments upset you... I think the vast majority of us knew what you meant. My opinions on this subject were designed to exbound on the the feelings of some of those who posted on the subject. Your participation in this forum is as refreshing as it is important!
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

now marcia, you KNOW that I did not direct any comments toward you, nor did they come as a result of your post. I have said it on here MANY times, you ARE, without a doubt, THE BEST! and I cnnot WAIT to see you to pick up my new leo tomorrow! Talk toy ou soon.
Kev
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Kev
1.1.0 Tang Leopard Geckos: Marley, Mary
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko: Toad
0.1.0 Colombian Rainbow Boa: Rambo
1 Beta: Malificent
0.1.0 Tri Australian Shepard: Nelly

The breeder in this case knowingly sold that gecko knowing that it was going to be bred. The guy has bought 5 or 6 double hets from him so it is not hard to put 2 and 2 together. Where is the line here?
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You can never have just one gecko. Actually it is almost impossible to have two

thats a good point, but maybe the breeder didn't realize it was the same person. he didn't buy them all at the same time, he bought the group of DH's and then the PA later.
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your head will collapse, but there's nothing in it, and you'll ask yourself, "where is my mind"

if you have AIM, IM me at chichandoCONrosa

Could be the case, but I don't think this is what happened. Where do you draw the line between making a buck and doing what is best for the species that you earn a l?ving from.
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You can never have just one gecko. Actually it is almost impossible to have two

what do you mean could be the case? do you mean he might have known that it was the same guy? or do you mean that he could have bought them seperatly? because he DID buy them seperatly.
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your head will collapse, but there's nothing in it, and you'll ask yourself, "where is my mind"

if you have AIM, IM me at chichandoCONrosa

I meant that it "could" be the case that he did not know it was going to be bred. I really don't think there are too many people out there that spend $400 on a gecko that they are not going to breed.
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You can never have just one gecko. Actually it is almost impossible to have two

for $1,600 once. So that point doesn't really agree with me.

If someone wants a pet, they'll buy it.
Just as even if you tell someone not to breed they'll go behind your back and do it anyway.

It's hard to tell the good guys from the bad,

Your right I bought them separately.First the group then the PA and again he knows it is the same person me.Thanks
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NICK

He knew I was going to breed them I told him. I wonder what Garrick would recommend?
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NICK

I don't really know.
Garrick's usually a pretty good guy. The geckos I have from him are great.

On his website the kinked tail was noted nxt to the gecko. The gecko was also priced differently from the non-kinked tail one.

If AlphaOmega purchased the double hets last year, or possibly even the year before that, Garrick may have not thought of the possibility of breeding. He might not have remembered the sale.

Also, even if you tell someone not to breed something... they might. And sadly...although AKC is doing something good to allow breeders to regulate puppies,I've seens some pretty bad things before. AKC once registered puppies that were horribly inbred.
What happened was the store I work at sells puppies. We had two Weime siblings. A couple bought both, wanting to have two dogs and let them grow up together. Since they were siblings they said they were going to look for a stud male for the female cause eventually they wanted puppies.
A couple years later they came back and wanted to sell us a puppy (we don't buy from anyone but our breeders) and showed us the papers on the pup. AKC had not only registered the pup, but did so when the parents were also siblings.

People will do what they want. Some will ignore the warnings from others to do it. Even if a breeder tells you the animal shouldn't be bred, people will still do it. The only way to prevent this is to fix the animal, but sadly, that's not an option with leopard geckos.

I am not sure I would consider the puppy you described as HORRIBLY inbred, not unless the parents and grandparents were also from the same family line.

Inbred, yes, horribly, no.

Steven-RGR

PA's from the breeder with kinked tails.... the ainimals were suposed to be in perfect condition. hey we all make mistakes right?? nothing against him, i have bought from him before and everything went well however if those PA's back then had kinked tails and this new PA alpha omega has, has a kinked tail... it lleads me to believe this is a genetic defect rather than a defect cause by high temps or nutrition. i personally would not breed a flawed gecko but they do have their place in our hearts and lives as pets.
i personally keep two flawed animals.... one has a kinked neck when i say kinked she has a 90 degree an angle to it..... we got her for free, she was three days old never been fed and was the prettiest argentine boa we had ever seen. we didnt even know iif she would live given the bend in her neck or if she could even get food doown. we basically were going to give her a chance, by no means would we force feed her and let her linger on but we were willing to give her a shot at life the breeder wasnt she will never breed and never be sold she is our beloved Ms. bender nasty attitude and all, we knew that one day she could grow to be 8 or so feet long and quite heavy but we still decided to take her in. she is here three years later and eats just as well as any of our others she is thriving and doing well.
animals like bender shouldnt be diposed of however shouldnt be bred. if you were to see bender in person you would see why it is soo important to try and breed the highest quality animals . if you have never seen anything like her, at first it is rather heartbreaking. maybe a bent neck is different than a kinked tail but it all has to start somewhere thats where we come into play and make sure it doesnt
just some thoughts and ramblings
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-robin day
Geckoheads And Geeks

I don't think it is up to him to question a buyer whether they are going to breed the gecko or not, and to be aware of what else the buyer is purchasing. What bussiness is it of his? If the buyer has questions about what he should purchase and if they could be bred to each other it is there resonsibility to ask.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

It is completely possible for any breeder to have geckos that are completely flawless to produce offspring with genetic defects. I have a first-time female that produced several babies with kinked tails this year, and even though I will not breed her again next year, the offspring still need good, loving homes! This doen't make Garrick, me, or anyone else a bad breeder... especially if the defect is pointed out prior to the sale.

Geckos with regenerated tails, missing toes, kinked tails, eye-lid deformities, etc. make wonderful pets, and in many cases can be purchased at very reasonable prices. But, it should be pointed out that the ones with genetic defects should not be bred. True... people will do whatever they want to do, with OR without the breeder's recommendation.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

WHO IS GARRICK!?
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1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Super Hypo-Tangerine Carrot tail
0.1.1 Whites Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Huge Black Cat
0.1.0 Cocker Spaniel
0.1.0 Brittany
0.0.1 Brother

www.crestedgecko.com

Garrick is a relatively large breeder, and he probably really doesn't know all of the purchases and whom they were made by. I also know some people who have bought breeding groups and never breed them. There is also the fact that Garrick probably would have assumed that when the breeding group was purchased the intentions were to breed the groups male and the other might be a pet. Garrick fulfilled his responsibility by labeling the gecko as having a kinked tail. There is only so much the breeder has control over. AlphaOmega changed his SN on here so what would stop him from doing so to trick Garrick if he had been denied his gecko?

Hi i've got some questions about breeding.......

In nature don't animals select those they want to breed with based on specific traits? Female bird choosing male birds with the most colourful feathers, the best nest etc?

Is this true of herps? I mean, do they just get together during mating season and go at it or do they have mating rituals that help them choose who they are going to mate with? In staying with the current topic, would a male choose a female with a kinked tail? (i'm guessing not since its happening in captivity but please correct me if i'm wrong)

I've seen dogs go after trees, makes me think we aren't the only ones who enjoy the practice, but also that they show they are ready to breed. So to breeders of leopard geckos have you seen any behaviours from either male or female that would indicate they choose? If you put one male in with a few females what is his first responce to the females? Does he check them all out then pick one? Or do you breed one pair at a time then separate the female once she is gravid and put in another female? Do the geckos show any signs that they are ready to mate? Not that they would go after a tree, but do the males get antsy? Are they more active? What about the females?

Ok that was alot of questions.....sorry i'm just itching for info by all means email me directly if you wish
And thankyou
Red
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1.0 crested gecko
1.0 leopard gecko
(hoping to get 1.0 blizzard, 0.2 patternless)
1.0 papillion (small dog)
2.0 bettas
and 2 very annoying younger brothers LOL

it seems like male leos, and all reptiles, just go for the first female they see.
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your head will collapse, but there's nothing in it, and you'll ask yourself, "where is my mind"

if you have AIM, IM me at chichandoCONrosa

Thankyou Maybe that has something to do with their natural environment and that they only come together during mating season......kinda like jumping at the chance while is available instead of waiting.

I don't know, just a thought I'm confused enough with human behaviours in this department, LOL, leopard geckos, specifically my guy, is the least of my concerns. If i do eventually breed him and i am sucessful in hatching healthy babies i'll be very happy

Red
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1.0 crested gecko
1.0 leopard gecko
(hoping to get 1.0 blizzard, 0.2 patternless)
1.0 papillion (small dog)
2.0 bettas
and 2 very annoying younger brothers LOL

Actually, it's the female that decides if she will mate or not. In just about every species I can think of (with a heterosexual relationship), the job of the males is to get laid. That's why they're always the best looking of the species. Take the peacock, for instance, or any bird for that matter. Male fireflies flash their lights for the females, and they've just conducted studies that show whichever male can hold his flash the longest is the most attractive. Male crickets chirp for the females.

The whole deal with pre-mating rituals is usually to ensure that you're approaching the right species. As in, if you were to do some a step in a dance, only another person from your species would know the next correct step, so you keep on dancing. And man, even fruit flies have the most intricate dance rituals.
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Lovin' would be easy if your colors were like my dreams...

maybe my leos are just weird, but my males dont give my females a choice. they basically just rape them.
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your head will collapse, but there's nothing in it, and you'll ask yourself, "where is my mind"

if you have AIM, IM me at chichandoCONrosa

maybe your females are just easy
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1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Super Hypo-Tangerine Carrot tail
0.1.1 Whites Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Huge Black Cat
0.1.0 Cocker Spaniel
0.1.0 Brittany
0.0.1 Brother

When you put it that way i just want to say Females Rule hehehe
Males seem to have the crapy end of things....in geckos the female will bite if she's not willing right? In horses.......OUCH the male gets a kick and thats gotta hurt!

Wouldn't it be funny if human males had to do some sort of dance in order to get a womans attention?!? LOL

Thanks for posting

Red
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1.0 crested gecko
1.0 leopard gecko
(hoping to get 1.0 blizzard, 0.2 patternless)
1.0 papillion (small dog)
2.0 bettas
and 2 very annoying younger brothers LOL

I don't know about any other guys, but I find the emotional dance I have to do to keep my wife happy is a LOT more stressful than any two step that a bird has to do!

Steven-RGR

I thought about putting a P.S. at the bottom of my post stating that i would imagine some people think men DO go through a dance.

To clarify.........i MEANT ACTUAL dancing......*line dance*, *ballroom dancing*, the *funky chicken dance* LOL......like that of the birds etc. I am very aware of the stress we put eachother through, the elaborate goings on of human interaction.....all in the hopes of attaining a mate LOL

That wasn't my point. I was just making a haha about if we acted more like animals.....how funny it would be given the many differing mating rituals that animals have. Leos tail wag, iguanas head bob (i belive when they encounter another male) for example... Seeing human males react that way would be funny. thats all.

Red
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1.0 crested gecko
1.0 leopard gecko
(hoping to get 1.0 blizzard, 0.2 patternless)
1.0 papillion (small dog)
2.0 bettas
and 2 very annoying younger brothers LOL

Oh, I knew EXACTLY what you mean, but took the opening anyway. Welcome to the world of Steven-RGR!

Ahhhhhhhhh i see The wonderful world of humans is much more intricate and confusing than any other animal out there! When it comes to geckos, their breeding, morphs etc...i'm fuzzy on alot, but when it comes to men.....i'm totally lost LOL

Red
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1.0 crested gecko
1.0 leopard gecko
(hoping to get 1.0 blizzard, 0.2 patternless)
1.0 papillion (small dog)
2.0 bettas
and 2 very annoying younger brothers LOL

They do! It's called "Dinner and a movie".

Then you have all the other dances, neccessary to ensure future matings: The "Hygene dance", the "Go to work and make money dance". The "I'll follow you around the mall for 8 hours while you look at cast iron and wood things and not buy anything dance". Those are the really tricky ones.
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1.1 Ball Python
0.0.1 corn snake
1.0 Bearded Dragon
0.0.2 fish
1.2 cats
3.1 kids
1.0 husband

I clarified my post above.......but in responce to yours.....

Thats funny.....although the hygiene dance applies to everyone.LOL

Red
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1.0 crested gecko
1.0 leopard gecko
(hoping to get 1.0 blizzard, 0.2 patternless)
1.0 papillion (small dog)
2.0 bettas
and 2 very annoying younger brothers LOL

LOL...yep, you're right. At least, we hope so.
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1.1 Ball Python
0.0.1 corn snake
1.0 Bearded Dragon
0.0.2 fish
1.2 cats
3.1 kids
1.0 husband

I really doubt there would be any geckos with kinked tails in the wild, because the inbreeding quotient is very low.

n/p
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1.0 crested gecko
1.0 leopard gecko
(hoping to get 1.0 blizzard, 0.2 patternless)
1.0 papillion (small dog)
2.0 bettas
and 2 very annoying younger brothers LOL

Define "Flaws". I've read the posts about the kinked tail gecko, and all the uprising it has caused, and one thing keeps niggling in the back of my mind.....Why is a kinked tail considered a defective flaw? Does it pose health problems? Is it a congenital problem or a genetic problem? I haven't been able to find definitive proof of either on Google. Some say temps during incubation, some say vitamin deficiency. I don't see kinking in the last portion of the tail associated with other defects.
So, my question is this. If it is a stand alone genetic trait, and it doesn't cause health problems, what is the issue?
Why not breed a line of Kinked-Tail geckos and create a new Morph? We selectively breed desired traits into animals all the time. There are no wild Daschunds....short legs were probably considered a defect, too, at one point.
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1.1 Ball Python
0.0.1 corn snake
1.0 Bearded Dragon
0.0.2 fish
1.2 cats
3.1 kids
1.0 husband

This type of flaw is a personal decision. The kink is purely cosmetic as far as anyone has been able to determine. There is not much money going into research of this type of thing in Leopard geckos.

Basically, it does not seem to cause any physical or emotional stress to the geckos. They live, eat and breed just like one without the kink.

Questions about the ethics of reproducing geckos with these differences have raged. It certainly is not immoral. That is a VERY strong word.

My feeling is that if a person wants to buy one with a kink, that is their business. It is then up to them to decide the future of that animal.

Steven
Royal Gold Reptiles

I'm sorry if I'm a little lost here but didn't I already read this post somwewhere? Not that it matters it just seems familiar.

np

Some people think that the kinked tail is bad. Some like it. Some just don't care. We have all given our opinions several times over, and I BELIEVE this is the concensus:
We are not sure what the kinked tail is the product of. Most of us feel it is a genetic defect, while others, are optimistic, and say it's just unknown. There is nothing wrong with either opinion. What we all agree on (well, I THINK all.. I don't know what AlphaOmega thinks...) is breeders should breed for the good of the species. We don't want to breed problems into leos, just to get a pretty penny. That is like a puppy mill! Perhaps we should let it go at that. I can guarentee you all that I will never breed a sick or defected animal, may it be a leo or a dog. I would hope you would all do the same. How about we all give Alpha Omega the benifet of the doubt, that he didn;t know that there may be a problem with a kinked tail, and has now decided not to breed his leo. Ok? Let's all make friends, hug, and join in hands, while singing songs of love, peice and unity!
(sp?) "Cumbiya my Lord, cumbiya...."
~AngelaWINA!
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1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Super Hypo-Tangerine Carrot tail
0.1.1 Whites Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Huge Black Cat
0.1.0 Cocker Spaniel
0.1.0 Brittany
0.0.1 Brother

Peace
Love
Unity
Respect
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Kev
1.1.0 Tang Leopard Geckos: Marley, Mary
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko: Toad
0.1.0 Colombian Rainbow Boa: Rambo
1 Beta: Malificent
0.1.0 Tri Australian Shepard: Nelly

KUMBAYA
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com