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This is a pic of a wild naturally occuring mbk x calking(yuma) cross.

Its is IN an area we find BLACK kings, and splendida and within 30 miles of were we find Yuma type kings.

This specimen exhibits characteristics of both the MBK and cal king(yuma morph)

It was hit right in front of us, while we were photographing another king.

On a side note, while we were releasing the other king after photographing it, my friend found a coral snake in front of the car. Good night I guess. Cheers

p.s. The pic was taken with a a flash. The actual snake was very dark and brown. The pic made the lite areas stand out and it appears blacker then it really was.

How big was this snake in the photo?
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1.1 Florida Kingsnake
1.0 Kisatchie Cornsnake

Aprox one meter, female, appears to have laid recently(depleted internal fat bodies). In fact, both were aprox. the same. Cheers

Thanks for the photo Frank, can you put up a Yuma king from there as well? I have a splendida that supposedly came from Arizona but have no other info on it, so it will be just a pet for now. She is very robust, what do you think? I have posted it before but would like a second look from you with comment. Thanks.

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Todd Hughes

Hi Go to our site for monitors(most of the time) a good friend who lives on the northwest part of tucson posted pics of two kings he found recently. Both were in the act of feeding too, hahahahahahahha.(varanus.net)

The night before I photographed these two kings, I found a perfect Yuma morph, but left my camera at home(thats when you find the good stuff)

I do have a pic of a banded that was very near(a real exception) to the local where the subject king is from. I will find it.

It appears your king is from the northern part of tucson as it has a low band count. The splendida types tend to have a higher band(blotch/spot) count.

The problem is the tucson area is a mix of three or four types or more. And much of the mess may have been created by man and agriculture.

Kings are a moisture bound snake. They live in moist or high water table areas. Even in areas of barren desert, they can be found where theres a high water table. Our area has been influenced by water table pumping for irrigation. These areas are full of kings. These kings tend to not be what was native to tucson. They do not match kings that are not influenced by this artificial habitat.

What I am getting at here is, the northen parts of tucson is has Cal king influence that may be artificially caused by massive irrigation in the past.

Lets see, the blackking influence is from the south(Santa Cruz basin) The Cal king influence is from the northwest. And the whole dang area is influenced by splendida from the east, south and southwest. That is a general overview.

Thanks for that Frank, I value your opinion because you are in the thick of it there! I hope to make a pilgrimage to the land of plenty next year to see some wonderful things Arizona has to offer. How's the local gophers doing in the mouse house!
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Todd Hughes

>>This is a pic of a wild naturally occuring mbk x calking(yuma) cross.
>>
>> Its is IN an area we find BLACK kings, and splendida and within 30 miles of were we find Yuma type kings.
>>
>> This specimen exhibits characteristics of both the MBK and cal king(yuma morph)
>>
>> It was hit right in front of us, while we were photographing another king.
>>
>> On a side note, while we were releasing the other king after photographing it, my friend found a coral snake in front of the car. Good night I guess. Cheers
>>
>> p.s. The pic was taken with a a flash. The actual snake was very dark and brown. The pic made the lite areas stand out and it appears blacker then it really was.
>>
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=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
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Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

I love the speckling it has in the bands.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

thanks for posting that FR you rock!!! wow and it looks alot like funkys cross from below, imagine that!gosh!oh my! from some of those responses below he had created the ending of 2 ssp. in our hobby roflmao and yet here is a wild phenotype, doug,shannon,jerry,phil anyone have anything to say? perhaps an apology to funky is in order,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thanks but I am only reporting what is out there.

In fact, my friend Marty and I were comparing pics from this year, to pics of a two years ago(last good kingsnake year) What we saw was, the types of patterns and colors this year are different then those from those two years ago.

Whats funny is, so far, the years are consistant(as far as kings go) but different from year to year.

I am not sure if you remember, but I posted pics that two years ago. They were much yellower and have top blotches, that did not go down the sides.

Anyway, if something interesting pops up I will post them. Cheers

Your right, where are those folks who are critizing the keeper for doing something that occurs naturally?? What is there explaination for this individual and the thousands of other naturally occuring phenotypes like it.

In this case its very silly as there is really no such thing as a MBK, its merely a locality color morph. I know of no area that has 100% MBK's. Where MBK's are found, so are splendida and to a lesser extent other getulus morphs.

This can be said to a lesser degree for Splendida, I have seen many Calking(banded) color morphs within the splendida morph range. In this case, there are locals that mainly have splendida morph pattern.

The reality is, subspecies is a loose guide to what an animal is. Thats why its being eliminated with many species by many taxonimists.

The problem with L.getulus is, its totally full of exceptions. There are exceptions in the middle of subspecies normal natural range. Such things as OBK's and goins and nitita and striped kings and more, are morphs within a morph.

Then consider the major morphs(subspecies) commonly intergrade or exhibit intermediates,( whichever term you perfer)

So arguements about mutts and crossing within the L.getulus kings is very very academic. As thinking any of these subspecies(local color morphs)as pure has nothing to do with the real animals that exsist in nature. Hence these personal thoughts, theories, beliefs, are academic. Academic to what exsists normally and naturally.

Even locality breeding is somewhat academic as these are kingsnakes and very highly within any given local. Folks often pick on color morph and assign it to a locality, when in reality there are many color morphs occurring within that locality. Again academic and naive.

Folks need to consider that making rules(names) is very easy. Then consider that One exception breaks a rule, many exceptions eliminates the rule. With kings, there are always many exceptions. Which means, many of you need to think about the rules you make. In most cases here, the rules you make are rules about herpetoculture and not rules for herpetology/taxonmy. Which your welcome to do, but make sure you know what area your rules belong.

Simply put, most are upset that someone may muck up their waters. The problem is, nature already mucked them up. Cheers

yeah its pretty sad many stated funky created abominations that will destroy/undo both MBK and Splendida as valid ssp. within our hobby its really funny, lots of hot air,,,ahh here that... silence. just affirms their ignorance in suggesting such nonsense, how sweeeeet it is,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Not trying to rehas what has already been said, but you may need to read again all of those posts, since it appears that you missed the point of all of the rants and what people were saying. The breeding was still not needed and probably done out of pure boredom, as most people who were against this breeding probably already know what FR has talked about ( I did at least ). Nothing at all changes the facts on the breedings, and what it will and can do in captive bred circles and such...in other words..THE BIG PICTURE. It's that simple.

Take care!!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

From a biology point of view, what was done with that black king and a cal king is not different then 99% of the snakes on this board.

All this het this, and possible double het for fleas, etc etc, and pink watermelon limeade phase is nothing to do with nature. I do not care if they came from a locality.

Even local specific animals are selected for human taste color and pattern and normally are not AVERAGE for a local. Keepers tend to pick the abnormal colorful animals to keep, not the ugly average.

I normally do not see someone say, Hey look at my nasty average ugly local specific snake, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

To me it boils down to peer grouping. Little clicks if you will. If your not doing what I am doing, something is wrong with you. Hey, isn't that what causes wars and such? Yes it is, only on a different scale.

When I posted the pic, I had not read any of that nonsense below, I just saw the title and had just found one. All and all, its that simple. They do occur. Cheers

Did they occur before man made that irrigation system and attracted them there?
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

Does naturally occurring intergrades mean that the individuals are the same snake? I know there are many naturally occurring intergrades of separate subspecies of kings, milks, rats, etc., but that does not mean that they are the same snakes, or do I have it all wrong? Just curious, as I too am here to learn. Thanks.
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Joe

Depends on whether you consider them all to have come from one ancestor or many, all snakes could be the same but different by following niches to survive (evolution) or each as different as you are to a rhinoceros, individually made perfect in their own way (creation). I like them all and like to study their habits and traits, especially the clinal variation of a man named species or sub species. What I don't like is when people talk about things other than kingsnakes and kingsnake related themes on a kingsnake forum, that's what p.m.'s are for, lol!

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Todd Hughes

There is no answer to that question. its been debated back and forth for decades by taxonomist, etc. They have yet to settle on an answer.

At present, there seems to be a trend away from subspecies. So that make these snakes that intergrade, the same species, as subspecies is NOT being used at this time(of course, that is due to change as well) Cheers

There certainly has been some silliness with subspecies too in the someone recent past.

I'm being told that the Pacific Treefrogs in my area are Cascade Mountain Treefrogs - P regilla cascadae

When I asked around for a reliable way to differentiate the new "subspecies" I was basically told to use a range map. When I asked how you differentiate them from unknown origin, the answer I was given was a comparative mtDNA analysis against the museum specimens.

If that really is how you tell, and the frogs freely cross where the subspecies meet (which they do), then I must conclude that they stopped using alcohol to preserve specimens because they drank it all.

I suspect the pac treefrog split isn't going to make it into a single field guide and will soon be forgotten.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

LOL, the Milgro kingsnake wars! Check out my ugly locales on the end of the other post, the one in the middle is the norm for that population and the other two are the phenoms! I have a really hard time matching the other two but have plenty of the middle variety! If I were to mix-n-match, I could come up with many variations of the three, of course I want to produce the lemons and the high white "holbrooki" and I want my splendida similar to this, but I like 'em all but who will buy my ugly kings, please sir, can you spare a dollar for this wretched beast? LOL, all everyone is doing is refining what they are into what they want them to be. C'mon Doug, how many morphs of those milks are there really out in the wild without any influence from something else? I really like the snakes but even some of the milk masters admit to not everything is as it should be........and I like these too! a lot!!!

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Todd Hughes

Yes, that's right Billy, nobody wants to take a few steps back, and look at the "entire picture",....everyone arguing about this seems to just want to walk up to the painting with their nose only about an inch away from the canvas and just focus on the individual dots that comprise the "painting".

As you well know, what never seems to get understood here is,...it is NOT just about THOSE TWO SNAKES that made the cross here!,....it is about ALL the mis-matched snakes that are continually bred by people that are throwing "wrenches" into the gears of the hobby. All the people that continually do these pointless undescernable mutt breedings only help the problem grow worse every single breeding year. Then when you account for all the offspring mathematically "folded" many many more times after that,....it amounts to WAAAYYY more than just a couple "harmless" mutt breedings!

That is the "Big Picture" we keep talking about, that these others simply refuse to comprehend!,....I don't give two craps about two animals intergrading in the wild,....MY concern is the ones that are in captive collections being needlessly compromised by the thousands every sigle breeding season by these shleps!

At this point, I don't think re-reading any posts will kick in any spark!,......that would take someone with the capacity to reason and make logic decisions.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

way to lump us all Doug. I am not talking about any of the breedings done, I am really talking about how you guys are bashing folks, name calling, calling "us" uninformed, et al. I think you should be concerned with what intergrades in the wild, as that is what has been starting some collections since the beginning. I just think one can voice one's opinion and not lessen us as human beings in the process. After all, we are the same species. We as a community have waaaay bigger fish to fry than bashing each other. I think one of my biggest proponents on the legal forums has stated this many times. It isn't gonna matter what who breeds what to what if we don't stay on top of all the legislation coming down the pipeline. In the end we will all be field herpers taking pictures or zoo watchers. I don't hybridize, never have, but it is all our rights to do so, each person MUST see to their own purchases. If we don't then you get what you pay for, i.e. not what you thought you payed for. It is a sorry deal that their are unscrupulous people out there but that is life, eh? At the very least, they both have put their projects out their for all of us to see and didn't label them as something else. That's truth in advertisement by the original seller. We really need a registry of some kind, I think, otherwise go catch what stock is legal to do so and be happy with your own projects. Sheesh, I get it, but the hybrid people are here to stay and if they do or don't keep locality too, you just can't tell them what they can/should/can't/shouldn't do. I guess my popularity and ability to sell my stuff will go way down, but that is not why I came to these forums in the first place. It was to learn and share. This forum is getting waaaay away from what it was supposed to be about, and every year it is the same old thing. I bet at the end of the day Funky and Thomas would be gratful to have a nice cool beverage and calmly talk shop with anyone here. I have met Thomas and he ain't a bad guy. I haven't met Funky, but I bet he ain't the monster you all are making him out to be. Daytona will be very interesting this year, to say the least, lol!

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Todd Hughes

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Genesis 1:1

i guess you just cant see the forest for all the trees! ahwell, thanks but i see the big picture just fine.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

dude, its going to take a 3,000 pound winch to pull your lips off franks @$$.
So I have seen about 15 post on this subject and so far there are 3 for it and 12 against it. We al know that the accur in nature.That still doesn't make it right.

L8r
Shannon

From his statements in one of his posts he suggests that the snakes are only there because of the manmade irrigation systems. This only means that they are manmade screw ups just the the two put in the cagetogether to breed. The more we mess with nature the sooner we will have no natural nature. That is why it is important to try as best we can to keep things as pure as possible. I don't doubt that it will be tough for me to find kingsnakes very soon. They are trying to take away alot of cane fields and on top of that over human population is only going to speed this up.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

Your confusing two different posts. The cross is a cross because of nature. There is no argiculture anywhere near there.

If you were to ask, instead of assuming, these animals occur together because the habitat is varied. There is raparian areas meeting grassland meeting desert. hence the natural confusion.

I would imagine if the habitat was monotypic, there would be no need for the various pattern types. Of course that is only my educated opinion. Cheers

One more thing Shannon. With the saying how sweet it is I'm not sure it's FRs hind end where the lipps are. Frank must be eating some fruit or something. My girlfriend tells me the same thing all the time.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

Well, either way it will take a tow truck!LOL...

L8r

Or cold water and crow bar lol
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

HAHAHAHAHHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAA!!!!!!!!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

OUCH!
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Todd Hughes

Clarification, I wouldn't do the damn thing, but in this country you can, it is legal and as I said, no one of us would put that into our breeding projects unknowingly (DOH!) so what's the beef? Do any of us have a morph that was/is reputed to be tainted and didn't freeze the whole damn line? I KNOW there are a lot of things out there that aren't what they appear to be in large collections, how can anyone be sure? Shannon, you and I go out and collect cool things in our localities to work with but we both buy things from outside sources, how do either one of us know for sure, if we haven't seen many, many of the species or subs from one end of the spectrum to the other, like some of us have? We have to trust the seller and with THAT comes a whole lot of homework, legwork, personal conversations, personal meetings, etc. Even then, unless you are the one to have caught the founders and have witnesses to such, it is just our word we have to go on. many may not like the cross, but he was up front about it(honest) to all here so I don't get why he gets bashed for doing the right thing in coming forward, correctly labeling them as what they are. Instead he gets bashed for crosses. I have much respect for you in the fact that you are a phenomenal breeder and have been around the block a time or two, but we can't say what people can and can't do if it is their right to do it, we can say we don't like it, will never have it in our collections and will tell everyone we know what a $[bleep]ty thing we think it is, but we cannot tell others what they should or shouldn't do, that would be like him saying that hondos have a skeleton in their closet so all hondos are suspect and you shouldn't be doing those "crosses". Right?

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Todd Hughes

Todd,
Dude, I don't think you understood my posts.I never bashed him or atacked him.My very first post simple asked him why he would do it and what good was it and what was he going to do now with the offspring.
Now,I have said it about 10 times in this post alone but I will say it again.I t really does start with him and he is a tiny part of the problem but its not really him I am worried about.Its the next people and the people after them and so on...

Anyway,I am tired of this and this is my last post about it.
I really don't care what he does and I never told him he shouldn't or couldn't cause it is his right to do so.
And its funny you throw in a little stab about the hondos todd.LOL...I wouldn't get upset at all if you said they were suspect because they aren't suspect at al to me they are all crossed up with stuarti,abnorma,polyzona and maybe even more.
I know this for sure and most of us do.Thing is people don't care and we can't change it now.
I would love to have locale specific honderensis but that will probably never happen.See, even though they are all muddy there is no question what they are? isn't that funny? because we have all been told for so long that they are hondurans it really makes them just that.They are hobby hondurans but they aren't hondurensis.You will never see me advertise a hondurensis cause they aren't.
But, just like when you cross up all the differnt corns they are still corns at the end of the day.When you cross up some differnt locale types of rosy boas they are still rosies at the end of the day.When you breed a black and white cal king to a albino banana neport something or other they are still cal kings at the end of the day.And when you breed (on perpose mind you) a MBK to a amel cal king you have done what?

If you lined up 20 people at a snake show and asked them all to give you a answer of what kind of snake it is how many different answers do you think you would get? now do this with the same 20 people but with the crossed rosy boa or a hondo or a cal king.You see where I am going.But I guess its up to the buyer is what you are saying?

Lets just say for fun that there was no amel splendida in the hobby yet.Now, funky res takes and sells a few babies here and there but goes and wholesales the rest.The wholesaler goes to a show and throws them on the table.Do you think they care what it really is? its to much to wright down on the cup? so they are splendida.
Joe freaking blow that doesn't have a real trained eye walks buy and says wow.A pair of splendida for just $60.00 I will take them.
He takes them home grows them up and breeds them and pops out a couple amels.....NOW WHAT?....
I bet funky right now is saying ..See, it would be my fault that they didn't list them for what they really are....

Nope,I see no problem here at al,My bad I am truely sorry guys.

L8r
Shannon

Shannon, I totally get it, it is not good that we all cannot keep track of what is done to our animals after they leave our hands, anyone who buys from anyone could take our pride and joy and make anything, but that's not our fault. Is it? I tried to show how my end of it is with my splendida/holbrooki or hell, the recent amaura/anulatta that are in my area. These snakes are just the same as the hondos out there now, IMO. I guess I just don't see how this is different other than we already know about the hondos. I am sure there are hundreds of snakes (kings) being bred between subs but they are getula to getula (mostly). I don't want them in my stuff but that's just me. I like the look of the "coral kings" but ain't gonna do it. I know he put an albino into a normal and they are hets. I get all that. I just don't see the difference in singling him out for doing these projects when some of us are doing the same thing knowingly, for years. And why don't people care that the milks are crossed? Cause they look great, and generate cash, I guess. People are funny in what they like, and the market is driven by the whims of the buyer, not the seller, unless they can market them to appeal to the masses. Why do the morphs sell for so much more than a great example of a pure phenotype? I guess I just can't see where the line is drawn in this situation. I get the idea but it seems a little hypocritical. I am not bashing anyone for doing anything, just trying to understand why we stand where we stand. The hondo remarks aren't a jab, just the first example of a highly successful snake I could think of, and one most of the detractors work with. I really am trying to understand the difference here. Glad I am working with my locale stuff, mostly, LOL!

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Todd Hughes

Yes,.......that was a perfect textbook example of a typical scenario that happens all the time.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Why not? If it occurs in nature..... and man versus sheep is NOT natural, IMHO, LOL!
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Todd Hughes

poor form but whatever shannon. you are wrong and you know it or you just cannot grasp it so nevermind. mbkXcali naturally intergrade and those nat.intergrades look EXACTLY like funkys cross that you said in 8 yrs. would destroy hobby lines, which is absolutely wrong... bottom line.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis

bye-bye now.
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Hey Thomas, just to play devil's advocate, I can obviously feel some hatin' coming down the line towards you and don't understand it but, as I see it, Funky's cross? is a possibility in the wild, your cal/eastern is not, (not yet anyways, unless they start to move west as fast as the pythons!) but either way, we all have the right to breed whatever we want legally (for now) and Frank's statements are valid, he included the reasons for the possibilities as being man made irrigation systems. As a salesman, you have to offer what the customer wants. Do you sell more hybrids/crosses or true to the species or subs snakes? Just curious as you are one of the only open hybrid guys on this forum that speaks his mind. I like your nigras, by the way.
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Todd Hughes

hey todd, yes we are not speaking of my kings but funkys mbkXcali, he is owed an apology imho.
my cross is just that a cross not a natural intergrade like funkys mine was not easternXcali(thats next year ) but a w/c nigra to a snow from gulfcoast labeled as brooksi i and others beleive it to likely have cali in it GC claims it pure. for these i get crap about which like water on a ducks bath doesnt bother me they are my project for fun if i ever release any into the hobby/marketplace i will have complete history availible for them. getula is getula is getula thats my opinion. im entitled to it and will defend it.
what i cant stand is for these purist to attack me and others who do crosses as not having pure lines which is total BS. i have many true lines descended from w/c locales that i keep true and then i have my projects there is a distinct diff. these purist come off like i and others knowingly deceive the market which most obviously has been done by many of our forefathers in herptoculture. i dont misrepresent and never have. then the purist want to scream HYBRID when actually intergrade would be the term most acceptable but shoot half of the purist yahoos cant even get snakes to breed/propogate at all because they are to busy trying get the temp to exactly 78.6 w/a barometric pressure of 77.8 to smart to be successful in anyway which means it must be some sort of deep rooted jealosy hahaha that should choke some chickensif you are that into locality go snake huntin geez! irregardless daytona baby my first daytona im counting days man,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

> i have many true lines descended from w/c locales that i keep
> true and then i have my projects there is a distinct diff. these
> purist come off like i and others knowingly deceive the market
> which most obviously has been done by many of our forefathers in
> herptoculture. i dont misrepresent and never have.

Exactly.
Every animal that I bred - the parents are listed on my website.
Every animal that I collected - the locale (city, state) is listed on my website. Animals collected since I started using NAFHA also have their record number in the NAFHA noted on my website (right now just two pac gophers).
Animals that I purchased - who I purchased them from is listed on my website.

Furthermore - all this tracking will also be done at iHerp once their lineage database is out of beta.

For example - if you have one of my snakes and it is labeled as 2007AB-03 - you can see that the neonate photo of that animal by clutch, see that the father has code M2 and was a WC Redding Cal King and that the mother has code FM3 was CB by Brian Stockmyer.

If in the future it turns out that Brian Stockmyer mis-represented his animals and his Cal Kings had Corn Snake blood in them - anyone who has Cal Kings from me will be able to trace them back to who I got the ancestral stock for my lines from and see whether or not the female I purchased from him is in the ancestry of those kings.

Brian did cross Cal Kings with Corns but to the best of my knowledge and he certainly seemed on the level, all those crosses were sold as crosses (jungle corns) with none of their hybrid blood entering his "pure" king or corn lines. But if there ever is a question, I provide the lineage as much as I know for every animal I have so that anyone who wants to know can trace - and I would never list a known or suspect cross as "pure" with a single scientific name.

What you have to worry about if you really only want purity is breeders who cross and don't disclose that they do it, and breeders that don't document where they got their stock from and the lineage of the stock within their own collection that they sell.

In my case - if I found out Stockmeyer sold me a possible intergrade, I would be disappointed but it wouldn't be *that* big of a deal - I would just have to relabel anything downstream from that female as possible intergrade. I can't document that *any* of the snakes I have purchased are pure back to WC and therefore I can not guarantee they are pure. Anyone buying from me though can see where I got my stock (either wild or purchased).

Keep records, and if purity does matter, acquire pure from honest folks who keep records, whether or not they also make crosses.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

See, if that Brian gfuy that you bought your cal king from didn't do hybrids you wouldn't have had to type half that crap and have to ever worry about it?LOL you guys kill me man.

L8r

If he didn't do hybrids then there is still the possibility that the cal king isn't pure because I have no clue where he got his stock from.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Thomas, you said "not a natural intergrade like funkys" LOL if he did it in his house how in the world was it a NATURAL anything? Because it could and does happen sometimes in the wild? and do you think that if you found one in the wild it would be 50% of both and do you think it would be het amel?

L8r

That argument can be made for any captive bred snake.
Even locality specimens, the pairings are not chosen by natural selection, and thus the creations are man made and not natural.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

i would like to remind some of you that i (aka farfrumugen) too have many hybrids and voiced my opinion many times on the subject. after many poitless discussions and arguments i just gave up on trying to communicate my thought process on this matter.
in regards to doug he is a very intelligent guy and i have shared a hotel room with him(daytona 07) and talked on the phone many times. even though we dont see eye to eye on hybrids we both feel that all are entitled to our opinions. he relly is a good guy to just bs with, but i will never hold another hybrid discussion with him. it just creats bad blood!!
my opinion on "pure blood" is you will only know if its pure if you were the one who caught it, its parents, its grand parents ect ect ect.
i do believe their is a good book on pure blood its called MEIN KAMPF AND THE AUTHOR WAS ADOLPH HITLER

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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

I find it extremely amusing that YOU of all people, have the audacity to claim that anyone is ignorant!!!......That is the ULTIMATE example of the POT calling the KETTLE black! ....what an absolute JOKE that is!! Your strange and twisted definition of ignorant is someone that actually bothers to keep the different subspecies just THAT!,...DIFFERENT!, as they are described to science.....you MAY have heard of this word somewhere before,....it's called taxonomy!,....Oh!, and before you, or anyone else jumps in to attempt a big "grandstand" about any purity of my Hondurans,.....yes, no big secret, over the course of many years, they, and several other Latin American forms have certainly been intergraded into a gene-pool of several types,...namely polyzona, stuarti, and more than likely one or two others as well. But you WILL NOT see me breeding a known to be pure stuarti with an abnorma,....or a known pure nelsoni with a known textbook example of sinaloae!....again!,...SEE THE PATTERN!

If any two subspecies in nature get together and breed, then FINE!,....nothing "wrong", or evil with that at all!,...nobody here is saying, or has EVER SAID that!

It's when YOU, and other's like you KNOWINGLY take two identifiably different snakes, and cross them to one another to make offspring that are no longer anything specific at all, then offer them to the public ..that's what I find pointless and destructive to captive collections.

Ignorant??,...no,..I think not!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

doug ive NEVER sold any crosses w/o complete history as w/any snake i sell. what is ignorant is to attack someone for breeding what nat.occurs. its purist gone wild! now apologize to funky! maybe oneday you will be able to breed some kingsnakes and have something to show the forum until then... shutty!
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Check this out Einstein!,..your so-called snow "floridana" was a man-made piece of crap to begin with, THEN you stayed awake at night and wondered what to breed it to,...then you got the bright idea of mating it to a nigra of all things!,....oh yeah!,...that's a natural intergrade!!!...your thought process is absolutely hopeless dude!

I respect Funky way more than you, at least his cross was more related than your hair-brained science fair project!. Also, he doesn't have a real wise-assed attitude like you do either!

Let me guess, your car(if you even own one) is a mixture of Chevy and Ford parts,..Right!..LOL!

I certainly hope I can make it to Daytona this year as well, I really want to meet you!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

doug i never stated my nigraXsnow cross was a nat. intergrade like funkys is. where on earth did you come up w/that! their respective ranges dont even cross, come on doug get with it!
dont you live in fla.? well anyway ill be traveling through 4states to get there in the flesh, hope to see you do you ever produce anything? id love to ask you about yours ya'know about purity an all,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I've got plenty of nice examples I've produced in the past that I could show you, and have several clutches incubating now, but it would be a complete waste of time,...you wouldn't know a pure example of anything if it bit you right between the eyes!..LOL!

I've forgotten more than you'll ever know about snakes, not much of a mystery there, heck!,...that certainly wouldn't take much would it?..haha!

You see, I never breed just any old pair of animals out of pure despiration just for the sake of making junk to sell. There is a big difference,.....but like I said before, you don't seem to comprehend the difference, and I'm quite sure you never will either.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

ya know doug its funny how you ignore my post "yes" below and jump here. shows your true motives. i know pure when i see it doug. your like an armchair quarterback or backseat driver when it comes to breeding snakes. ive forgotten more than you'll ever know... gimme a break doug that is SO WEAK and uncalled for. if you did you would post pics of what you produced yearly but sadly i guess you dont produce anything(or cant), proof is in the pictures you only post pics of other folks snakes that you own. sad,,,funny, but sad, but they are all pure huh??
now apologize to funky! its the right thing to do
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas,...."weak" is wasting energy "knowingly" producing undiscernable junk for the public to buy.....so they in turn make even more, THAT is what's "weak".

ta-ta now!
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I certainly hope I can make it to Daytona this year as well, I really want to meet you!

~Doug

Ooohh..Oh BOY! Oh BOY! Can i watch???

What ya'll need to do in Daytona is pull out a nice blunt and mellow out.

NO ALCOHOL FOR EITHER OF YOU TWO WHILE DOWN THERE.
-----
ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

LOLOLOLOLOL! What happens in Daytona is usually forgotten because of the hangover! True dat, Blue, true dat!
-----
Todd Hughes

>>I certainly hope I can make it to Daytona this year as well, I really want to meet you!
>>
>>~Doug
>>
>>
>> Ooohh..Oh BOY! Oh BOY! Can i watch???
>>
>>
>>What ya'll need to do in Daytona is pull out a nice blunt and mellow out.
>>
>>NO ALCOHOL FOR EITHER OF YOU TWO WHILE DOWN THERE.
>>-----
>>ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!
>>
>>"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar
-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

at Daytona.

Sucks for them.

-----
ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

and under these particular circumstances the blunt may be a bad idea.

They may EAT each other!!!!

Munchies gone wild!!!!
-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

dougie do lots(o'drinkin & talkin)lol

-----
" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

from the old days of Magnum PI.

At least he is not dressing like Don Johnson from Miami Vice.
-----
ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

Freddy Mercury

-----
ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

magnifico ooo oooo, funny stuff...
ill be bringing my camera for sure. im easy to make fun of so it should be a blast. i am really looking foward to the show and meeting folks from the forum (well most of them) should be alot of fun! ,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas,
Doug is puppy dog friendly when you meet him and you are probably to. I bet if this forum didn't exist and you two talked there would be no problems.

or you two can walk to the beach and entertain us MMA fans.

-----
ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

LMAO! Show the nipple bitin' hondo, the funniest $hit happens here and there!!! LMFAO! Freddie Mercury! I hope I never have to disgrace this forum with my ugly mug!
-----
Todd Hughes

I'm real easy to make fun of ...

-----
I decided my old sig was too big.

-----
ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

.
-----
don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

I've been called Marty Stouffer, Grizzly Adams, "Mountain Man", Jesus Christ (not my favorite - I'm not as cool as he is), and Charles Manson (also not my favorite ... though I wouldn't mind figuring out how he got a bunch of chicks to fall for him).
-----
I decided my old sig was too big.

yeah i cant wait to meet all ya'll ftr im a lover not a fighter so i wouldnt get my hopes up rainer for MMA, what is that anyway some kind of hybrid boxing/karate? man what is w/you and hybrids??? i bet you drive a prius huh? ,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

apology my @$$. I never once said they didn't intergarde in the wild that is different.I keep many natural intergrades in my collection.I take them for what they are.They are still locale specific so tell me this,what locale are the snakes he created? yeah thats what I thought.Cobra food man,thats the only thing they are god for.ROTFLMAO........

L8r

p.s. And I never once said anything about him ending anything.I only said why further the problem we have already.And his justification is that he is just the breeder and its not his bad if the end up down the road as this or that and yes it IS HIS BAD ALL THE WAY 100%.
It starts with us.These things don't pick who they breed with when they are in our care.

bye bye now.

"I only said why further the problem we have already?"

That is EXACTLY my point as well!,....nothing more, nothing less.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I seriously don't think you two will EVER have this problem, again.
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Todd Hughes

I really don't have a any ax to grind with you, but I can't quite undestand why all the comments under my posts?

I think I have as much right to explain why I don't think it's right to produce them, as they(and you) also say they have a right to produce them....correct?, especially when there's a much more appropriate forum specifically for the practice of this elsewhere.

Also, I don't think that my, or anyone elses view of producing only identifiable offspring would be considered "ignorant", as Thomas has already ignorantly stated.

Hey,...I'm really not such a bad guy either..LOL!

ps, Don't worry, I get tired of all this nonsense too, and I'm ready to put it away for a while.

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I would like to add that I really don't mind the discussion that did take place.

I think it is good for people to see both sides of the argument and decide for themselves.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

And my favorite "mutt" from the clutch -

#7 (probes male)

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I decided my old sig was too big.

I don't care what anyone else says, THAT'S a good looking snake!
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Todd Hughes

I agree,thats a good looking splendida.I wonder if the amel gene in it is compatible with Don Shores line as well?

L8r

I've *heard* the amel in shores splendida is NOT allelic with Cal King amel but I can not find the reference. I don't remember where I read it.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

haha, wouldn't THAT be something? Don't care for amel splendies but the axanthics are cool looking! We can never know for sure except if we catch it ourselves, I know you and Doug understand this concept, I really envy your ability to work with your local cals and Doug's yellow rats are screamers!
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Todd Hughes

"Doug's yellow rats are screamers!"

That one yellow rat is a screamer IMO.

So is the cross Funky did!!!

I will never fit in darnit.

I LOVE EM ALL!!!!!!!!

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=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

It's just that it has been hashed to the point of name calling, etc., I think we all know how to breed snakes, it is semantics about who breeds what to what, it isn't against the law and while we should police ourselves, who's to say what is what? I know you would choose your snakes carefully, and I know you won't be buying from these fellows, but to trash any human being, both of you, is beneath us all. I was hoping to reach your sensibilities. This is no way for professionals to act, especially on a forum for all to see. I was hoping to take the hate mail to p.m.'s but it always ends like this. Oh, well! C'est la vi! Like I said, it will be an interesting Daytona, you guys will be drunk singing off the balcony arm in arm, lol!....NOT!
-----
Todd Hughes

Todd, when you say you two guys who are you talking about? there are a bunch of posts pulled so I am a little confused.I never called anybody and names.I think I said funky monkey but I would have done that if I was saying "hey nice looking snake you produced there funky monkey".
Anyway,just want to clear things up.There is no need for names I agree.
I get called shannon all the time and thats a girls name.

L8r

I agree, I am pulling out of the defender mode, not that Funky( what IS your real name) needs or ever needed it, just like Frank never needs backup, lol! You guys can handle it. I was referring to Doug and yourself but charles was in the fracas pretty good too! I KNOW none of you guys ever had a bad deal with any of these people involved, guess this is just a very passionate debate.
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Todd Hughes

It would just be nice to think our grandkids could not have to say..remember when you could buy a pure bred (blank) and how nice they were. Now the closet we have are 88% (balnk). I guess they are ok. It's just like a lot of things that we screw up as humans. We just never really get the full picture of what could happen until it happens. Look at all the endangered spaecies, fish populations,etc,etc. I live in south Florida and I cannot begin to tell you the extent of it. As breeders we are responsible for the future in herpticulture. I just really hope it doesnt turn out that way. Then again it's not like that star we call the sun is going to burn forever so it will come to an end and our own mark on this planet is only meaningful while we are remembered.I do have to thank this hobby for the solice it has given me in tough times though.When there is things bothering me I can gather my thoughts in my own little world of herps. I wonder how many other stars out there have that same person looking at ours and wondering the same thing.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

>> It would just be nice to think our grandkids could not have to
>> say..remember when you could buy a pure bred (blank) and how
>> nice they were. Now the closet we have are 88% (balnk).

That's why I personally wouldn't do it with a rare female (like an OBK or even a locality aberrant black belly cal king) - with Cal Kings, pure Cal Kings are plentiful in captivity and are plentiful in the wild, and collection from the wild is still perfectly legal through the vast majority of their range.

Cal Kings in their "pure" form are not in any danger of becoming rare. Probably the only N.A. colubrid that is more readily available is the Corn Snake.

However - if someone owns a rare female and wants to use it for a project, I'd prefer they first seek a suitable male of same type/locality - but it's their snake to breed to what they want to breed it to.
-----
I decided my old sig was too big.

Also, I think you'll probably find that a very large percentage of the common pet trade snakes (cal kings and corns) are bred by a small number of mass breeders who breed almost exclusively for wholesale.

The integrity of the species is probably dependent upon the honesty of those large scale breeders more than anything a hobbyist can do.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Quit thinking it's just about cal kings. You missed my point being that we do not know what will happen tomorrow, next week or ten years from now. You never know if they will be plentiful and you can't take genes out of them once they are in there.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

This cross involved Cal Kings - and if something happened to devastate both the nationally distributed captive and the very healthy wild Cal King populations, I highly doubt that any line of intergrades I started would somehow be immune.

Also - I *encourage* people to breed and keep locality Cal Kings, even if the locality does not seem "special" (unfortunately, most herpers only want the special localities). That's the real way to ensure that "pure" specimens will always be available.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Not sure if I'm looking in left field but it's more than just cal kings. The cal kings only brought up the discussion of hybrids not only cal king hybrids. Think about what I said about you never what is going to happen until it happens. If an epidemic did occur that wiped out most of the snakes in collections and wild. The less hybrids around mean less chance they would be oh forget I feel like I am talking to a wall.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

Funky,
I can almost gaurantee you that down the road at some point something will link back to this breeding.Its actually a small world when it comes to snakes and I have seen it happen time and tme again.Noe of my business but what do you really plan on doing with these things?
And a few posts up you mention large scale breeders,who would that be? name me a couple large scale cal king and or splendita breeders.And I will let you in on a little secret.Its guys like you and I and many others that supply some of these big breeders with allot of there stock.Most don't produce half of what they sell.

L8r

>> Noe of my business but what do you really plan on doing with these things?

Several things.
First - I have a theory that MBK are melenistic splendida. I don't know what herpetologists are studying the western getula complex if any, but I actually want to see if by introducing a non splendida non melenistic line, if it is possible to remove the melenism through selective breeding while at the same time selectively breeding for the spendida-like pattern.

I also plan to breed back to MBK to eventually produce young that look like MBK but are het for the amel gene, and then see if the amels produced from line breeding result in a blizard like phenotype or an amel splendida like phenotype. IE - is the pattern in MBKs just hidden under the black, or does their hypermelanism alter the pattern.

With Cal Kings - many of the hypermelanistic lines anyway, I think the hypermelanism alters the pattern. Amel should mask Hyper if it didn't - but instead we get blizards. You can see the altered pattern in Davis and Mendota hypers, even to the point that some claim there is sexual dimorphism in the hypers. The LA County hypers might be different, as they seem to retain the banded phenotype - just as the baja hypers do.

But with MBKs - there are numerous stories, some backed up with photographs, of MBKs hatching out looking dead on splendida and turning solid black as they age. That may indicate the MBK hypermelanism is strictly over production of melanin and not a pattern morph. If that's the case, then breaking the melanin production should produce a normal pattern amel opposed to a blizzard.

Note that I do have two future crosses planned that aren't in the interest of trying to figure something out, I'm not opposed to crosses that are done purely for the sake of designer snakes.

This cross though I am trying to figure something out. I wanted to do this cross last year - but a friend up in Oregon had a breedable female MBK and a male that was too young, so I shelved this for a year and sent her my male. I got a nice female out of the deal though, it seems that high quality female MBKs are harder to come by than high quality males (as in no pattern except the chin spots) - but I got one from that pairing, so it worked out well. And the chin spots on the daughter of my male are quite small, she's a beauty.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

So sir, you attack my posts because you have "an axe to grind" hahahahahahahaha and then you say, you have a right to voice your opinion, hahahahahahahahaha

Sir, so do I, I have a right to voice my experiences and opinion too. yet you always attack me, like you have "an axe to grind" in fact, you cannot stop attacking. Why sir?

Sir, you do not need "an axe to grind" to oppose someone/anyone in a discussion on a faceless forum. All you need is a difference of opinion or a difference in experience. In fact, AN AXE TO GRIND is not a good reason to join a thread.

Todd does not have an axe to grind, he simply does not agree with you and neither do I.

Its very apparent sir, that its all about who you like and who you have an axe to grind with. For you its not about the subject. Its suppose to be about the subject and not who you have an axe to grind with.

Sir, once you get this into your head, you will or should understand, I do not have "an axe to grind" with any of you. I only state my opinions, observations and experiences. WHICH I HAVE A RIGHT TO DO. Hmmmmmmmmmm just like you.

A lesson for you, a discussion is, point counter point. Its not about an axe to grind. To carry on a discussion you need more then one side or its not really a discussion, it becomes a conversation.

These forums are to DISCUSS subjects(which requires different views) as well as have conversations(does not require different views) They are not suppose to be about, an axe to grind.

So please sir, move away from having to have an axe to grind and get on with sharing your experiences. Also if you want to carry on a discussion, then put up points(thoughts or opinions it really doesn't matter) or actual facts to support your view. Cheers

Sir!,....if you are so above all this nonsense, then why did you stick your big self-proclaimed, big "pioneering" nose into this?,..Sir!.....I used the term just as a figure of speech,Sir!...and Todd knows that, but from counting the many times you used the term, it appears, sir!,...that YOU have more of "an axe to grind" than anyone here,you just figured this would be a convenient time to step in and add some great pioneering wisdom..SIR!...hahahaha!!

Please have someone move the ladder a little closer to that gigantic clydsdale of a "high-horse" you enjoy riding so often, and climb down every so often,sir!.......it's really not so bad down here once you get used to it...sir!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Your upset because I was a kingsnake pioneer? Well at least the truth is out. Me being a pioneer gives you an axe to grind. Good, I least now I understand you.

I wish I could undue the past, then you would feel much better. But sadly that is beyond my abilities. Oh and I wouldn't anyway. You do understand, pioneering was all about timing. You know, right place at the right time.

The only GREAT thing I did was to stop having a postage stamp collection, which was common at the time and concentrated on one species, and that was KINGSNAKES. I kept ONLY kings until I was proficent with them. Then I kept working. So that bothers you?

Also, what makes you think I am above anything. Dude or sir, whichever you perfer, I was raised in the ghetto and fought my whole life. Let me tell you, I am not above anything, thats one reason I was able to pioneer many of these reptiles. I would accomplish a goal in any way I could, work hard, luck, cheat, etc, its all good to me.

So put down the axe, its unbecoming of you. Cheers

I would have to say it is the attitude that seems to stew from your keyboard. Even if it is not meant to come out that way, you tend to have an arrogance about yourself. You always seem to throw the I'm a pioneer out that at everyone and it gets a little old. Yes I know we dont have to read the post but it is one of those things you just find yourself doing no matter how much it will aggravate you.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

I agree to some extent - but OTOH if you talk to anyone who has done any field herping with him, he's magic in the field - he finds stuff that are suppose to be hard to find, and has done it quite often, I can only surmise that means he has an understanding of herps and their behavior well beyond what most of us can ever hope to have.

I've had my brushes with him too, but I do think credit is certainly due.

I remember earlier this year on FH forum, someone from Nevada wildlife posted looking for people to help with a pyro survey in Nevada.

Someone posted "You can get a bunch of us involved and find some pyros, or you can hire Frank Retes and find a ton of pyros" - and if I recall correctly, there was some major agreement.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Credit might be due but it's also about how you carry yourself. Who wants to hear someone brag all the time. Even if that is not the way he means it to come across it does. I'm not sure if it is just because written messages seem to not come out they way they are intended.It seems you missed what I said a little. FR has been around a long time and does a great job with snakes from what I hear. His people skills suck. That is my point.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

>> "His people skills suck. That is my point."

huh??,...I didn't know he had any?..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

"Your upset because I was a kingsnake pioneer?"

LOL!, not at all oh arrogant one!, as a matter of fact, all I could do after reading this last post of yours was giggle!. It sounded like something a grade school kid would say as a despirate way of getting attention for himself. As Charlie stated, you seem to constantly mention the "pioneer" thing approximately every other post or so.

Anyway, let me just say, I am extremely impressed sir,....congratulations!.....okay, I guess that takes care of THAT now.

bye bye now!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

(that wasn't a religious crack or slur btw, just a form of expression is all....still a lil gun-shy from being in solitary last week.....) Ahem!!! 'Evenin y'all. Well gollleeee, only been gone two days and what a mess has occurred. I think the reason for this thread to have gone so awry is that Funky has maintained his stance in a very cool, calm, and collected demeanor. For that I give him credit, and give him even more credit for putting up self-photos. THAT, my friend, WAS a task. But nevertheless, we persevere. And now that I have returned from the reflection pool in Osaka, Japan, I have brought with me some guidance and insight. We obviously can not change what Funky-san is doing with his snakes -- that is his way and ONLY when we can snatch the hybrid from his hand will we attain greater wisdom. But, for now (cough), this is what will be. What is hoped for, however (cough), is that Funky-san has heard our cries of discontent and remorse for his acts against the emperor. Will he go into hiding? Likely not young grasshoppers. But what will be certain is that a message was heard -- a message of insight not solely for now, but for the dynasties to follow. It will be HIS path to choose, and hopefully no longer continue to contaminate purity. Ahhhh yes, Buddha provides. So with that being said my fellow brothers, I bid Funky-san good tidings and hopefully to be at my side when I make my pilgrimage to Daytona with a plentiful flow of sake.
As for FR-san, ahhh yes, a history of trial and error, and much-gained wisdom. We should be thankful for the cherry-blossoms of his labor (cough). But bear witness, his karma has gone astray. There is an old japanese proverb, and in translation it reads something like "what goes around, comes around". Much negative energy he projects at times, yes, but he has earned his black sash oh young ones (cough), and weilds a mighty sword. This is what he grinds, but with indignant purity that should be, however difficult, understood. Who knows but for what scars or mishaps he has sustained on his path, yet there is a need to project them masked by grandeur and pride. Nevertheless, we shall piously bow and refer to him as Master HA. (moment of silence.....).
I hope this brings our battle to a conclusion, as the battle field bears no witness as to the greater, all-encompassing (cough) energy that brings us to this hallowed ground my young disciples (cough). It is the power of love........love for what we all hold true in this field. Although we may all not walk the same path, allow us to behold the appropriate boundaries that help us refrain from such worldly hostilities so that we may be able to ride that great serpent in the sky when OUR time comes. (cough). And now, oh young ones, let us be at peace.

Master Pinch-san (hits gong . . . .)

The only thing I see wrong is, you are more about "the people" then the animals.

Which I guess is a normal thing. But why not TRY to be about the animals and forget about the people. You do not know me, nor I you(as it is, I like it that way)

MY problem is, I do not know you, or care to know you. But I do care about all your(all the other folks) animals.

I often mention "other" ways to do things. All you do is fight and complain and make snide remarks. What is wrong with you? are you not secure in your methods. Then why attack others?

How about just showing off your wonderful animals. If you do, then that will gain respect of some sort. How about showing some nice wild stuff. I would love that too.

If and I am stressing if, if you really cared about the animals and proper captive conditions(there are a zillion right ways) you would not attack me, but pressure me to show more. But again, you do not care about that.

All and all, why do you care about me. And don't say you don't, because if you didn't, you would not constantly enter MY threads, this is my thread you know.

Of course I am old(why I was a pioneer) and I am not really a snake keeper anymore. I do keep and breed a few species of colubrids and pythons. So why not help me out here. If your so good, SHOW ME. Not attack me.

I mean, if I show a nesting, then if you want to attack, you show a better one. Or how about you showing the first ever hatched of a species or morph. I can do that, can you. You see, when you attack me, you make it a war. I did not address you in any way. I did not come here to war with you. But it seems your afraid of something.

Or in this case, show how funky crossing those snakes will negatively effect the trade. Not just say it will, show it. Anybody can think anything. But offering a prevasive agruement is much harder. Remember, what he did was done for over thirty years. So one more is not going to change anything. In this case, your just assuming your ideals are better then his. Prove it.

Lastly, prove why your reasons to keep and produce morphs or just keeping locality individuals, IS BETTER then Funky's reason for keeping and breeding whatever he wants. Show it, or discuss it, but to attack a pioneer is very very silly of you. Cheers

It's useless!,....just plain useless to try to explain any more to YOU, or anyone else about what the "Big Picture" is really about. It CANNOT be stated any plainer than what I have already mentioned in this ridiculous three foot long thread, OR what several OTHER wise people have mentioned that have the same views I do about this thing. It IS NOT, I repeat..NOT just about two western type subspecies of kings here!!!!,...I, along with the others are talking about ALL TYPES OF SNAKES!!!! ALL TYPES!!!can I be any CLEARER????

Oh!,...just a friendly reminder sir!,....YOU came into my post and added the snide remarks, NOT the other way around.....SIR!

One other last thing sir,....you say I don't care about the snakes, and that it's about giving the the people a hard time????

THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THIS WHOLE THING is to try to preserve the subspecific integrity of these animals!!!!!....open your eyes dude!!......granted, Cal Kings and many others are so mixed up now, that battle is basically lost now,.....so why continually try to do it on purpose to as many OTHER types as you can?...it IS NOT about just two snakes that Funky threw together,...it's about the general practice of doing this to every type of snake in the hobby!........when a huge percentage of people think this is a great thing to do,....it has a huge friggin impact on the snakes in the hobby!......does it make any sense at ALL yet??

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

FR started this thread.ROFLMAO!!!
also he did so just to show what he found which is a nat.occuring MBKxCALI, which is exactly what funky created w/the exception of his are 100%het.albino!!! since you have no respect for one of the founding fathers of herptoculture or anyone who shares differing views from yours why do you post here at all??? this is a board about kingsnakes doug, have you ever bred/produced any kingsnakes? do you ever hope to breed kingsnakes? i see the "big picture" just fine. you hate crosses we all get that can we now move on with a little mutual respect?
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I post here, because I WANT to post here, that's why!...if you have a problem with it, click on something else, instead of hunting way down here just to add your childish little comments to posts I make?.

Since you keep asking, I have produced several types of Cal. King, thayeri, Gray-Bands, many Ratsnakes, many milksnakes, Boas, etc..., not many kings in recent years though, but one thing they ALL had in common, was the fact that you could plainly see what type each of them were, regardless of any morph involved. So before you ever make another lame attempt at bashing on something I've done, or haven't done, try to make sure it at least makes a LITTLE sense.........this is the one thing it seems you are not capable of doing at all.

Anybody can throw two snakes together and make unidentifiable mutts,....you're a perfect example!..hahaha!......snow Eastern(with amel Cal. influence) x nigra,.....what a complete JOKE that combination was/is!..LOL!!!!!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug said, I post here, because I WANT to post here, that's why!...if you have a problem with it, click on something else, instead of hunting way down here just to add your childish little comments to posts I make?.

The above applies to you Sir, I/we/all can post here because We want to. We all can agree or have different opinions, and we are we are all allowed to voice them.

The last sentence of your above paragraph is key. Your the one acting like that.

Also, you do not keep kingsnakes, when you seriously need to think about why your envolved with trying to control the captive hobby of what others WANT to keep.

Its my opinion that people should do or keep whatever, keeps and promotes learning and understanding of kingsnakes. Hopefully some of that knowledge will be useful in the future to protect and support wild kingsnakes. You see sir, the future of our wild populations are in the hands of our youth AND the next generation after that and after that. They will need a full understanding of these animals.

You attack because you have an axe to grind, a dull rusty toy axe. Your opinions are just that, yours. You too, should allow others to speak(use this forum) And yes, your allowed to have your opinions. Cheers

Master HA wrote: "You see sir, the future of our wild populations are in the hands of our youth AND the next generation after that and after that. They will need a full understanding of these animals."

And I'M NOT TRYING TO ARGUE EITHER, I'm just making a humble point once again that future generations will depend on the "forefathers" in doing the right thing. I'm a definite advocate for natural intergrades, as evidenced by my securing a pair of natural intergrade mtn kings this fall. But the intentional experimentation does, in some way, make the future of pure and honest herpetoculture questionable at best for the future generations. If you may recall, you ripped me apart a couple months ago regarding pyro pyro and pyro woodini, thus an expression of your passion for purity and overall "correctness" -- but now you're the bleeding heart Dalai Lama for intentional hybridization? You really do go with the direction of the wind, eh? With all due respect, I think we need to once again consider that each and every hybrid that enters into the hobby is a potential threat for future negative implications.

Jerry Kruse

Good point Jerry....but your preaching to the choir. The only people that are going to get it are the that already except that what you said is true. The don't get because it goes in one ear and out that same ear because there is a big stone in between those ears and ABSOLTELY NOTHING ELSE. Thank you for the input.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

I thought all this was about the snake's Frank,....not me!..LOL! but since it's people that make the snakes, it has to be about the people too!,....see the correlation???

I've already explained why IT IS about the snake's, sir!, I put it into very simple terms so you and a few others could understand it, but yet you and your very "close" partner still refuse to see how it applies to snakes, ALL SNAKES!. The rest of your childish nonsense doesn't even warrant a reply.

Before I said I haven't bred any kings for several years, I never mentioned to you that I didn't have any!, I have a young pair of floridana right now, along with many other different species and subspecies that you probably don't know much about, so that shouldn't matter here.

The fact that I haven't bred kings for several years has no bearing whatsoever on the amount of knowledge I have in regards to them, or any other species/ssp. of snake for that matter.

Is there a specific number of unidentifiable kings I have to crank-out before I can post here on the forum?..hahaha!

Please sir,.....stop "hounding" me because I like the idea of retaining the integrity of many different subspecies in the hobby, and NOT only kings,....ALL SNAKES!......I would certainly think YOU of all people would be able to appreciate that, if it INDEED was about the snake's as you keep mentioning ...over, and over, and over again!.....GET IT??

Many others agree whole-heartedly with what I'm talking about here as well, sir!,....and THEY explained in great detail as to WHY they thought so as well....point, counterpoint as you stated, but with you, it is NOT about the snakes either if you rant about my position on this,....it is about you not liking me, so you make childish attempts to discredit my views on this.

Let me make a suggestion, sir!,.......go talk some of your nonsense to someone that doesn't know any better,...there are plenty in the hobby!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Either the moderator is asleep at the wheel, or on a vacation, or placing bets with someone as to how long this is going to go on for. Hmmm. Anyway, I know I had far less a thread with Frank and every single thing I stated, unless it was all kissy-kissy, was removed. Where's the justice -- but this is not about me is it. Just my .03.

Pinch

I'm sure you've probably commented on it before (or declined to), but do you have an opinion on MBK vs Splendida with respect to them being valid different subspecies?

Are you aware of a study that has looked at them in finer detail to see if they are different or are just different phase of the same snake?
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I decided my old sig was too big.

LOL, Funky this cannot be tested as it would be a breach of protocol! Don't you do it!!!, LOL! I have seen some splendida babies go through the change to become fully melanistic MBKs. I have never seen any MBK's do the opposite. HMMMM?

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Todd Hughes

I guess that would be hard to answer, as splendida occurs from my area south to central mex(my personal experience) and east to central eastern texas.

I would not dare to think all those kings are the SAME. While they have similar patterns, I am sure their histories are totally different.

But if your talking about where black kings occur. Well, I have seen them from southern az to northern sinaloa and I have found both black kings and splendida in those areas.

A better question is, are there any areas that are inhabitated by 100% totally black kings, I have never heard of one. That is, when a decent sample was taken.

You should consider, most samples of blackking locals are normally one individual. That is the samples used for articules. If someone was interested in this, they need to find out more then a blackking was found here and there. There needs to be a decent sample taken.

In my experience there are like stripe and banded kings. Calkings are predominately banded with pockets of striped kings. In these pockets, there may be a vast majority of striped kings, but there still is banded kings and both can come from the same clutch.

In the past banded kings were a different species/subspecies then striped and alterna morphs were a different species then blairi morphs, that is until they found both in one wild clutch.

Now banded and striped calkings are the same as are alterna and blairi morphs. Them dang kingsnakes, ahahahahahahahahahahaha

Heck in some areas of Oz. brown snakes are all messed up, they cannot seem to settle of a color or pattern. And they are deadly! hahahahahahahahaha

In the tropical areas of the world, many snake species are polymorphic and so are many North american species. So to argue about kingsnakes that are HIGHLY polymorphic seems odd.

I think most here are worried about herpeticulture and not actually their natural biology.

In that, black kings were bred to other types of kings, oh 20, 30 years ago and it did not make the world come to an end. Cheers

So then the Yuma kings can be found (or were found) in the wild but many looks were made years and years ago so no one can really know if a look was man made or natural unless they were herping with a trusted partner and found them with a witness? Wow, strange days indeed! One day I hope to spend some time in the range and find out for myself, but I am working east to west from the middle!
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Todd Hughes

Is there some doubt about Yuma kings. They are common.

A Yuma king is a banded king that has very narrow lite bands dorsally(less then 1 1/2 scales wide) and widen up slightly on the sides. They are much darker then your average coastal king, but not black.

Many populations are consistant, that is, the population is made up of all Yuma king patterns. Of course where they happen to occur in unstable habitats then they are not consistant. And of course populations at the very edge of their range are not stable.

This is something folks have a hard time grasping. It seems most think snakes are made and painted off a templet in a factory, then released. Then they live where that pattern and color allows. The problem is that is not true. All snakes use a templet(genes) as a base and evolve from that to fit the current conditions. If the current conditions change and become the norm, that the color and pattern that fits becomes the norm. The animal itself is always trying out something new and if the conditions are stable, these new things fade away. But sometimes these new things get a foothold when conditions allow and stick, for a period of time. Its always for a period of time. Its the amount of time that is important to humans. But not important to these reptiles. They are always attempting and changing.

Whats FORGOTTEN here is, color and pattern are loose genetics and are ALWAYS ready to change or in the act of changing. (not suppose to be a key taxonmic factor)

Yet, the folks here do nothing but concern themselves with a quickly changing character. And better yet, one that only suits themselves and has little to do with the animal. They claim biology, yet forget to use biology.

Oh dang, this was about Yuma kings, yes they exsist and are common, its only some books(and the humans that wrote them) decided they were not Yuma kings, even thought they were originally found in Yuma.

Just think if we started to name snakes now, we could just call them GPS coordinates, and never be wrong. Wait, what happens if one is 50 feet away, hmmmmmmmm it will have to have a different name. Cheers

just my inexperience with ca kings, not any doubt! I was deferring to your better knowledge because you have the experience in the area. As I said, one day, but first, the Sky Islands!
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Todd Hughes