Reptile & Amphibian Forums

so i have this girl Emily and i bred her to her F1 son(she was a virgin and this is her first hatchling son i got fromt he breeder with momma) So i bred her to a different snake 3 years ago b/c Henry VIII(the sons name) was too tiny. Last year Henry VIII was only 2 but bred his mommy and got this ghost-like snake(Ludwig). This year bred again. So i know no other snake is the father... breeding photo below.
Anways. I bred Henry VIII to an Anery A (Persia) photos also below. and it was Persias first year(she was a virgin) BUT i got 0 Anerys from this clutch. Persia was not introduced to any other snake. I did however get an amel motley and a motley (so i proved Persia het amel and motley...she was bought as a poss het)
Ghosts are Hypo Anerys... and Snows are Anery Amels so i should have gotten some anerys in Persias clutch, right? I mean, she only laid 8 eggs... so maybe my odds were completely wack... ok so heres the pics.
Henry and Emily (emily is the miami)

their ghost like child from last year (got 3 but only this one survived...)
Ludwig

Henry And Persia

Babies this year: (sorry for pics.. fresh out of egg so the colors arent the best... i can post more pics after they shed)
1st Normal:

2nd Amel:

3rd Motley:

4th normal:

5th Ghost-like:

6th snow with kink:

7th amel Motley:

More eggs pipping looks like 5 normals(unknown if they are motley or not) and 2 unknown at this time....
ideas welcome
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, A pair of Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping Turtle, and a White Cheeked Mud Turtle

I'd just say it's the odds crapshoot.

You got 2/8 anery when you expected 4/8
you got 3/8 amel when you should expect 2/8
you got 1/8 or 2/8(depending on if snow is also hypo) hypo's when you'd expect 2/8
You got 2/8? motley when you'd expect 2/8

Overall I think they came out pretty close to what you would expect, just a little low on the anery side.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

heres the odd part... 0 anerys from the anery female to henry...

0 anerys from mother and henry But a ghost? and a snow... weird...
but whats kinda cute but i'm sure i'll get crap about is... the snow is like a midget... its short and stocky. it does have a kink in its back.... but its cute i dunno if it will survive... but after everyone sheds i'll take more pics.
All my other clutches had pretty good odds!!!
my sunglow to henry produced 5 amels and 3 normals!!
and i wont even get into my cal king eggs!!!
but i guess 2 clutches out of 8 are ok to be screwed up... i'll allow it. as long as my 8th clutch is great
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, A pair of Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping Turtle, and a White Cheeked Mud Turtle

no offense, and to each their own, but kinks get there heads pinched ASAP at my house, now midgets on the other hand are cute, and might be holdback, but not if they are kinked.
Let the angry mob beat ME down for saying that, sorry but it's the truth.
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

aww thats terrible~!!! i just cant see myself working so hard and waiting for eggs that when a kink shows up i kill it... at least give it away for free or something... my husbands Favorite pet snake is a striped anery who has a little back kink. we got it for free at a reptile expo.
~kin
-----
~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, A pair of Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping Turtle, and a White Cheeked Mud Turtle

Sorry, its not pretty, but even though it is likely just bad developement of the individual, I don't want to take any chances and breed or spread to someone else any bad genes that might predispose for that, same for non-feeders, I go out of my way to get them on track, but eventually they have to make the cut, I feel this is necessary to maintain the integrity of the lines you produce and ensure integrity and success for your customers. But hey, thats just my oppinion and how I roll, but like I said,to each their own. I'm certainly not knocking your ways or how you feel about it.
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

>> Sorry, its not pretty, but even though it is likely just bad
>> developement of the individual, I don't want to take any
>> chances and breed or spread to someone else any bad genes that
>> might predispose for that

If it is genetic - then the gene(s) responsible exist in the parents and the non kinked siblings as well.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

You are thinking in terms of recessive single locus alleles like most corn snake genes, that we hobbiest manipulate and play God with, but in the bigger sceme of genetics it is usually not even remotely that simple.
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

No.
Very rarely do new genes results. New gene combos result, but the mutation of an allele into a new allele is very rare.

If there are genes that can cause kinking (either single or in combination with other genes) - they are most certainly present in the parents and siblings as well.

I personally suspect the majority of kinking is the result of incubation and is not genetic.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

I also forgot that i bred Henry to my hypo het amel, anery, stripe.

No anerys.... so 3 clutches- 2 of which females are either Anery or Proven Anery A and 0 Anerys... sounds a lil crazy, doesnt it!?!?!
~kin
-----
~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, A pair of Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping Turtle, and a White Cheeked Mud Turtle

I need you to clarify because I am not sure what offspring are coming from what pairings. Could you say the pairing and list the offspring under it for each of the related pairing? I can't really tell you anything without knowing who produced what.

There is always an explanation, getting enough information to figure it out is the trick.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

I am with Sean on this one.. Might be that I am just so damn tired right now, but I am as confused as a hungry baby in a topless bar.. Break these clutches into their own groupings.. What I might be seeing from what you posted might not be what everyone else sees.. I would more than love to help you try and figure this one out, but like Sean had asked, give us more info with a more clarity to what was in what clutch from what breeding etc.. Are you 100% sure the snow is a snow? Would like to see pictures of that one in a few weeks or monthes, I almost got the knee jerk reaction to think it is a light amel just from the picture, but I might not be seeing things correctly.. Please, don;t take it as an offense because I am asking about the snow, because many people have been fooled by freshly hatched light coloured amels many times before, and very likely in the future still..

OT... sort of... Lets see some more of the odd ghost.. Is it male or female?

Regards..> Tim of T and J

both last years and this years "ghosts" are males and i'll upload a pic of the midget snow... its really cute.... almost looks like a hypo snow... but you'll see.. i'll take pics of it next to some snows from another clutch just give me a few mins
~kin
-----
~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, A pair of Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping Turtle, and a White Cheeked Mud Turtle

OK.
Emily (miami in pic) X Henry (normal male) Obviously hets....(mother & son) 13 eggs

Babies are pics above...
Classics(what i call normals)
amel(1)
amel motley(1)
"ghost" (1)
classic Motley (1)
midget snow (1)

Persia(anery het amel, motley) X Henry (same male) 8 eggs
Classics
amel motley(1)
classic motley(1)

Gracie Lou (Hypo het amel, anery, stripe) Henry again 13 eggs-1 died leaving 12
classics(7)
classic Motley (1)
Amel (1)
Amel Motley (1)
Hypo (1)
hypo motley (1)
BTW Gracie was proven het anery last year with 2 anery females(Binky, Cupcake)

Henry also bred my Sunglow female who laid 11 eggs (her first year)
and got amels and 3 classics.

~kin
-----
~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, A pair of Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping Turtle, and a White Cheeked Mud Turtle

There is certainly something going on there.. *lol*

You said you bred Henry to a straight up amel.. A bunch of amels and a few classics.. Humm.. Thats making my brain hurt .. *lol*

Lemme sleep on this, I might be able to find an answer for you, but I can't make and darned promises..

One possibility is that Emily and Henry are het amel het motley het hypo and het charcoal(Anery B). This would explain all but the midget snow unless it is actually a very light amel as was suggested. Part of the reason I mention it is the pictures of the "ghost's" reminded me more of phantoms(hypo anery B) then of ghosts(hypo anery A).

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

ok so i took pics

"ghost" alone

"Snow" alone

"snow" with amel sibling

"snow" next to pen(aww)

"snow" and normal sibling

"Snow" with another clutches snow

"snow" with other amel(motley) sibling and another clutches snow

"Ghost" this year and last year(Ludwig)- yes he really got that light!!!

"ghosts" next to normal sibling

~kin
-----
~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, A pair of Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping Turtle, and a White Cheeked Mud Turtle

It looks from the pics that the mystery ghosts have a bluish eyeshadow thing going on. Is this correct? If so, that is characteristic of charcoal hatchlings wich would lead me to believe they are phantoms.

yes... kinda light sky-blue. If you're ever out towards my neck of the woods you can see them in person if you'd like... But i think i'm gonna breed the mother to my amel het charcoal next year just in case... what do you think!?!?
~kin
-----
~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, A pair of Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping Turtle, and a White Cheeked Mud Turtle

Am I the only one who thought the ghost looked like a lavender at first? I haven't worked with lavs personally, so my knowledge of how their hatchlings look is based solely on pictures but my sketchy recollection of the lavender gene is that it started with miami corns. Otherwise I'd be inclined to think it is a phantom as someone else suggested.

i dont think so.... BUT the momma is a miami.. and when she was bred to a completely different male her first year in 2005 ....1 of these ghost like babies hatched out... so that 1 male probably had it as a het too... i'll be posting more pics of the babies once they shed.
~kin
-----
~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, A pair of Ball Pythons, A pair of Candoia, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping Turtle, a White Cheeked Mud Turtle, an Adult Rescue Iguana, and A Baby Iguana