Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i was wondering:

1.does anybody recommend one over the other as a staple food source throughout an animals life? (baby to adult)

because i have read in the leo manual that the record breakers for leo lives were all fed a diet of exclusive mealworms supplemented on occaisions with other insects.

2.if it is better for older animals to eat supers then at what age should they be introduced to them? (supers seem so big to me and look like they couldnt even be swallowed by a gecko)

thanks

I recommend using the mealworm as a staple. Personally thats all I use, with the exception of a few stuborn cricket eaters & if mealworms are not avaliable for an extended length of time. (such as what we are seeing now with the national mealworm crisis). It wouldn't be a bad thing to add other insects into the diet, just remember to keep the food items gut-loaded as needed.
I would avoid useing the super worms. There exoskeletons are alot harder then regular meal worms & harder for the gecko to pass possibly causing impaction. I don't use large or giant mealworms for the same reason. Personally I use minis for the hatchlings then when they're big enough I'll switch them to the small mealworms & that's the largest I like to give them. Even my adults. I've found the smaller mealworms are easier for them to digest & they will eat more volume wise then the larger mealworms.

Actually, the giant mealworms have less chitin than the smaller ones and so are more easily digested by the leos. Ron Tremper feed his older leos exclusively on the giant mealworms. The giant mealworms, or Zoophobas, don't need to be refrigerated and last much longer. One draw back about the keeping of giant mealworms: they die if the temperature gets too cold, so in the winter I keep the temperature around 85 degree for them.

Well not to start a debate, but the giants are larger versions of the smalls (Tenebrio molitor). The Zophobas morio are the super worms. I've seen the Z.morios marketed as giants which creats a little confusion.
In my personal experience, I've had some problems in the past useing the giant T.molitor. It seems to me the geckos get a little backed up (constipated) & don't eat as much in volume. I know of other breeders who use them without issue. I've found feeding exclusivly the small T.molitor works best for me. The geckos eat more in volume, pass them easier, & put on a little better weight when I went to useing just small T.molitor.
Also the small T.molitor are more active than the giants. Makeing them more attractive to the leos.
Unless you plan on keeping them for an extended lenth of time, T.molitor don't have to be refrigerated. I actually prefer to keep them at room temperature & constantly fed. They seem to do better this way as well. The smalls won't turn into pupae for about 3 to 4 weeks.
If something else works for you, stick with it. Just remember to gut-load

I think she is talking about the Zoophoba because in the title she said superworm and that's what they are also called. I'm a little confuse to about the giant mealworms and superworms. Supposedly, the superworms are also called giant mealworms by some people. But, yeah, the Zoophoba has less chitin than the regular mealworms and they are a different species altogether.

heh not to make you sound ignorant paradon, or anything but im a guy

anyways:

superworms and kingworms (to my knowledge) are from the zoophoba genus

giant mealworms are the same as mealworms except for the fact that theyve been exposed to a juvenile growth hormone, inhibiting its ability to turn into pupae/adults. (so they just grow to huge sizes and die as larvae)
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what national mealworm crisis is going on? i just bought some mealies from a petsmart near me. (will they be affected)
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Ok to get back to my orignial topic. What is the backside of having a feeder that bites? (should i jsut clip its head off?) And if supers have less chitin then why not feed them to leos? Do they have the same meat/shell ratio and are they proprotionately similar in nutrition?

Thanks

Good thing I didn't pick a gender. LOL
Yes supers & kings are both in the Zophobas genius. But the term king might also be used refering to giant Tenebrio molitor.

I've also heard that the giants T.molitor are given a growth inhibitor to prevent them from matureing. I know some of the greener/organic breeders will avoid useing them for that reason.

As for the National Mealworm Crisis. I've heard so many different reasons why (alot could be hearsay), but alot of the big supplies haven't had mealworms T.molitor for almost 2 months now & it's been hard for breeders to get a bulk quantities of mealies. My sorces tell me it should be over soon. I don't know who PetsMarts supplier is, but I would think if they were affected then you wouldn't have been able to get the ones you just got. But only the T.molitor are affected & you can always go to another food sorce as a back-up.

As for the original topic, I haven't seen any nutitional analysis for sometime so I don't have any numbers for you on that subject. It's a matter of preferance, yours & the geckos. I use the T.molitor because that's what works for me & that's what other breeders advised me to use years ago.

Not to beat a dead horse, don't forget to gut-load.

I dont no the details about the crisis, but alot of suppliers are low on stock and not selling. but i just bought 2,000 medium mealies from nyworms.com
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1.1 Western Painted Turtle (Mougly, Scooter)
1.1 Albino Leopard Gecko (Daphne, Guy)
1.0 High Yellow Leopard Gecko (Sunshine)
1.1 HTCT Leopard Gecko (Rocket, Dot)
0.1 SHTCT Leopard Gecko (Tequila)

so the verdict is up to me, lol thats not helping me much as im not great at deciding.

heh ill jsut buy small quantities of both to see which one gets exposed to a massacre first

Ya, give him a buffet. Lol. Let him/her figure out what it likes

That's good you got some. It sounds like the suppliers are going to be baack to full capacity soon. Of the different stories I heard the most credible one was some bad wheat germ came into the country & caused some problems. I'll be seeing my usual supplier in a month & I'll probably get a more detailed answer.

Actually, if you are worry about the Superworms biting back you can crush the head before feeding them to your animals, but in my opinion I don't think it's necessary. I never do.... I know Ron Tremper, the biggest leopard gecko breeder, feeds his leopard geckos exclusively on the Zoophobas because they are much easier to keep and last much longer than both the small mealies and crickets. It's easier than the small mealies because you do not need to refrigerate them, they do well at room temp. during the summer, but might require some heat during the cold winter if you live where it gets really cold, that is.

but wait, after you crush/clip the head of a superworm, wont the insect be lifeless and therefore not move? If it dosent move, how does it entice the leo into feeding on it?

Also, does tremper feed the supers to babies/juvis?! I didnt know that was possible seeing the worms being so big and all.

thanks

Yeah, it would die after awhile, but still be alive right after you crush it, so feed it immediately to the leo.

As for Tremper feeding it to his baby leos, I'm not sure.... I've read he said he feeds his babies and juvies 1 inch mealworm, but I'm not sure.

I'm not trying to start an argument & I don't directly know RT personally, but what your saying about him feeding Zophobas morio seems to contradict what he states in his 2004 book & on his website (which I looked at about an hour ago).
In his book it states "RT has fed Tenebrio molitor exclusively for 30 years to his Leos" & in a caption under a pic "In our exsperience, most Leos won't don't feed readily on Zophobas" (which I've seen otherwise but that's a different story)
His website says a diet of T.molito or crickets is the best for Leos & mentions nothing about Z.morio.
So I was wondering if this is a new trend he is starting & are all Leo breeders going to convert to this?
Also, T.molitor don't need to be refigerater. I've been keeping them at room temp in my reptile room for years now without issue. I've actually found they seem to do better if not refrigerated. The only reason one would want to refrigerate them is to prevent them from reaching matturity.
I'm not saying Z.morio are a bad choice of a reptile food item, in fact another point no one has mentioned is Z.morio won't mature if left in a group.

You're right about him feeding his leo T. molitor.... I must have read it wrong some how because he said he feed his hatchlings 1 inch mealworms. But, yeah, the Zoophobas do have thiner exoskeleton. My leo took them pretty easily, though. I've never had problem with them, but I guess every leo is different. I know some leos that won't take pinkies, but mine will if they are hungry.

I can so relate to that, every Leo is differant. Out of the 50 Leos I have that are over a year old, 4 of them absolutly won't touch a mealworm prefering crickets. I'd say only about half would go for a pinkie if I offerd it to them. Fat-tails are even pickier.

I know in the original post the person was talking about Z.morio when they said super. In my first responce when I used the term giants I was refering to larger T.molitor & my breif reference to supers, I was refering to Z.morio. That's why I got a little thrown off by your first responce refering to giants as Zophobas & that reminded me about the confusion out there in the market today. That's why in my second responce I used alot of latin to try & keep things straight.
Thanks for the tid bit about Z.morio exoskeletons having less chitin then T.molitor exoskeletons. Put that in the learn something new every day category. I'm going to look into that one.

I feed my adults 4 super/kingworms every other day. For a juvi I would stick with mealies because kingworms can bite. As stated by another person on this thread, the skin of mealies is thicker than the skin on the kingworms, making them a bit harder to digest. Aslo, kingworms don't have to be refridgerated. It's up to you really.

-Patrick

i personally go with regular mealworms, just cause they are easier to breed. with the supers for them to pupate they gotta be seperated and all, i started with maybe 50 mealies in a bucket with some bran and the ocasional fruit or veggie, now ive got thousands, and not enough mouths to put em in, heh, no crisis here
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2.1 leopard geckos
1.1 golden thread turtles
1.0 reticulated python
2.1 firebelly toads
0.0.1 pacman frog
0.1 creamsicle corn

ok see i was thinking about breeding my own mealies but the big problem was

i didnt wanna have alot of bugs in the house

if i were to start off with 100 how many would i and up with in a while?

heh im kinda scared pf bugs

long as they are properly cared for you could get lots from 100, they arent the fastest breeders in the world, but once they get goin they keep going, also, they cant climb or fly or anything, so they are easy to keep track of, i pretty much just have a bucket full of bran and oat stuff i got from wormmans worm farm, and i throw fruits, veggies, or the crystal cricket water stuff on top, cool thing is once the mealworms are fully grown and close to pupation, they pretty much hang out on top of everything, so you dont really have to dig around to find em.
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2.1 leopard geckos
1.1 golden thread turtles
1.0 reticulated python
2.1 firebelly toads
0.0.1 pacman frog
0.1 creamsicle corn