Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Any tips on buying double hets from a small breeder? What should I ask for on the I.D. card? (im not even sure what should be on an I.D. card lol) What type of genetics guarantee should I ask for?
Thanks,
Alan

p.s. Im just trying to avoid some of the problems that other people have had in the past!

Well, I'm no big time buyer, but I guess I have been around enough blocks and made enough purchases over the years to give this tip.
Personally, an ID card isn't worth the paper it's printed on and a "how ever many" het anything isn't worth "two cents" to me if I don't trust the person I am buying from on two levels; 1)are they honest 2)are they compentent, so that what they are selling is indeed what they say it is even if they are an honest person.

Now, having said that, I guess an ID card at least shows some effort to demonstrate credibility and a positive step to establishing trust. Next step ask the right questions, get the right answers.
Thats MHO tip
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

I've never bought a het, and I know nothing about i.d. cards, never heard of them, actually. But befor I buy from somebody, I usually google search their name to see what other poeple have said about them in forums and chat rooms, works pretty well for me. The first time I bought from someone on the internet, I didn't do this, so I did it a couple weeks ago, now the breeder is injail for doing something with drugs, was a pornstar, and her mom took over her business. I suppose it could just be gossip though...
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www.freewebs.com/snakesandstuff
"Let us step out into the night and pursue that mighty temptress, adventure." (Albus Dumbledore)

My menagerie
1.2 Ball Pythons 1.1 Amazon Tree Boa 1.0 Corn Snake (and 9 eggs) 1.0 Dumeril's Boa 2.1.10 Bearded Dragons 2.1.2 Crested Geckos (and 2 eggs!) 1.1.4 Eastern Box Turtles 1.0 Northern Mockingbird 0.3 Chickens 2.0 Cats 1.1 Ferrets plus lots of mice and feeder insects and 5 Black Rat snake eggs

Paperwork isn't work squat. A few years back I traded a gorgeous Gila monster to a now defunct herp breeder/wholesaler in South Carolina who was advertising "100% het pieds". These caim with extensove paperwork-fancy-looking "certificates of Authenticity", record cards, names and numbers of the parents, etc. Have had over a dozen eggs from each, bred to my male Piebald. You guessed it, not a SINGLE pied baby! I basically spent $2000 on a couple of normal baby balls!

For breeders big or small-trust their (online and off) reputation, not any paperwork you may be promised!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Wow!!! I can't believe how negative everyone is about buying hets. Unless you've got a lot of extra cash, hets are the way to go. There is one major misconception about buying hets. Many first time buyers believe that if they buy from a big name breeder they will get legitimate hets and have no problem. NOT TRUE ! I've been burned 2X by big name breeders that would not honor their guarantee. They had good reputations, good references, presence at shows, etc. One is in business at this time and can be found on the main page of KS. I had a 3rd incident last year with a het for ghost female that failed to prove out. Bred by a ghost, 6 eggs, no ghost hatchlings. Others have stepped forward and said that I may have missed the odds. One even missed with a 9 egg clutch with hets that they produced. So it is possible. I mention this because if you breed het X het and miss, most breeders will ask you to try again. They may even ask you to try again with a visual X het breeding depending on the size of the clutch.

What I would recommend is that you buy from someone that has references that will vouch for them.
References that will verify that the breeder has good customer service. (There are other problems besides hets not being hets)
If possible, references that have proven their hets to be legitimate hets.
Ask about their husbandry practices. I would not buy hets from someone that moves his females around to different recessive gene projects every year.
Look for a breeder that has been in the hobby / business for a reasonable length of time.
As far as ID, Authenticity certificates, etc. There is NO standard. I make my own and if you want to see one, email me.
One last recommendation. Ask, what if ....
Find out what the breeder will be willing to do if a het proves out to not be a het or if there is some other problem.

So, I don't think I was being negative about it, I though I was just giving a realistic oppinion with a teaspoon of caution, and I have'nt had any problems with hets, because I only by from people I "know" I can trust, or I buy visuals.
But you are right big name does not neccessarily equate trust.
So you have had 3 incidents where hets didn't prove out for you, yet you can't understand words of caution for buying hets....sorry but you are bordering on gluttony for bad judgement.
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

John,
I wanted to say great job on this advice. I could'nt agree with you more. Hets are a great way for those wanting nice morphs in their collection to afford them. It takes time but it is worth the wait. As far as finding trustworthy breeders to purchase from; I think you hit that one on the head also. Ask for references and check into them. There are honest people in this business that take pride in what they put their name on. Best wishes in your future endeavors.
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Dino White

www.whitediamondreptiles.com
dino@whitediamondreptiles.com

Dino,
I think your statement:
"Hets are a great way for those wanting nice morphs in their collection to afford them. It takes time but it is worth the wait"
is true but it is not always true,
by the time you add up the feed bill, your time is worth something$$$, electricity for heat, ect. ect. hets might not be "saving" as much as you think, not to mention by the time you start producing visuals they might be worth what hets were when you started the project and you "missed the boat". I am more inclined to buy hets as a means to accomplish a long term project goal and to produce a variety clutch, or because that is all that is feasably available, not as a way of saving money. If you buy a het and it doesn't prove out the first year breeding how much money have you saved? or how much did you loose out by not buying a visual in the first place. I think it depends on what your goals are and how much time you want to invest and what that time is worth to you, not just a matter of how much "cash you have lying around" to blow on visuals, because a person is tired of wiping their butt with hundred dollar bills.
I look at hets as taking a little chance and except some risk and assess the value of the asking price accordingly.
I think the ID card and photos of parents to document linkage are like I said before; maybe nice efforts to show credibily and establish trust, but if you are incompetent you can screw that up, and if you are a liar you can forge it. The day I have to hire a lawyer to review a legal purchase agreement document to purchase a darn snake is the day things have become a little out of hand for me, and I will ask myself "why" "what" is this really that important to me? I can see it may be important to a big time breeder, because it IS BIG BUSINESS, but for the average hobbiest; nope.
I realize I may be going against the grain a bit, and I respect others opinions, so please excuse me for having a different view.
Keep it simple, have you established the person you are dealing with is competent and honest. That usually takes a five minute conversation with the right questions and the right answers.
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

Jeff,

I will not argue that view one bit. You bring alot of very good insights and angles to the topic. Very well put.
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Dino White

www.whitediamondreptiles.com
dino@whitediamondreptiles.com

Well thanks Dino,
I certainly hope I didn't sound arguementative, it's just good discussion, that's why I visit these forums and if I already knew everything I wouldn't bother visiting either. By the way I have checked out your web site a couple times, and I will say this while we are on the topic, I would not hesitate for a second to buy animals from you. I believe you to be a competent and honest person. One key word for me in your home page statement- "cleanliness", another key character I see in your web site is "organization" those two things equal competency, and I am guessing your daughter keeps you honest
Take care,
Jeff
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

Thanks Jeff for the kind words. As for the website it is a work in progress. I'm actualy going to be updating it this coming week. My girls definetly keep me in line as I have 3 daughters and a wife....makes me the only man in the house. That's a little challenging.
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Dino White

www.whitediamondreptiles.com
dino@whitediamondreptiles.com

All good advice. There are good people and bad. Hets can be very advantageous. Just be thorough in your quest.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Well simply put when you talk to the breeder for the first time...is he or she trying to be the best used car sales person? Are they really pushing hard?

I have friends who I have seen get burned in the past...putting that aside...het are like a crap shoot....as stated b4 you may miss on the odds for a year....breed them for 2 and see what happens....keep in contact with the breeder.

Use your best character judgement!!!!

Paul
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www.myspace.com/apabana

I would like to say that the last few post had some great points. But I would also like to say that paperwork does matter. It protects the buyer and the seller. I personally give all my customers that buy hets from me a genetic guarentee that contains a nice clear photo of the snake with all its info such as birth date, sex, origins of genetics ect. I also put all of my info on there such as company name, my name, contact info ect.

The reason I say it protects both the buyer and the seller is if there is a problem down the road you need some kind of document to make sure that the snake in question is in fact the same snake that was purchased. I know several people that have had several snakes escape at the same time and if you do not have that document there is no guarenteed way to say which snake is which.

Also like the othere poster said you not only want to ask but you want to get it in writing what the terms of the guarentee is. Such as if no visuals are produced in the first breeding how many more breedings must be done before you can collect on the guarentee. What is the seller going to do for if the hets do not prove out? If the seller is going to compinsate you who gets to keep the original hets? These are all the details that need to be discussed before the purchase is made. I know it might seem like alot but it is in your best intrest to do these things. Trust me I know from experience.

And just to give you an idea. Here is my personal genetic guarentee that I give with all my hets. If you do not produce a visual in two breedings, I will give you two of the morph in question. One for each year of breeding you did with the hets. But I would ask for the hets back. I know that it sucks no matter how you look at becuse you raised up a pair of hets and are going to loose two years production but it does keep everyone involved honest.

You will find alot of breeders wont offer the same guarentee that I offer most will claim they will buy back the hets for the price you purchased them for which I feel is total bull#$@? If someone gives you that guarentee find someone else to buy from. If thats all they would have do, you would preety much be giving them a intrest free loan for two years lol. But like the others have said make sure you trust the person you are dealing with, Always ask for referances. And if you dont feel 100% confident you are getting what you are paying for then DONT BUY THEM. If I would have took my own advice years ago I would be a little richer today. Take care. Paul Wyble @ Steel City Exotics

>> The reason I say it protects both the buyer and the seller is if there is a problem down the road you need some kind of

Or selling. I had a potential buyer contact me a few years back. He was looking to buy a het albino I sold to another guy. He sent me a pic of the snake and I compared it to my records and it was in fact, the original snake. So in this case, it 1) helped the seller sell his animal and 2) helped protect they 2nd buyer.

Really, trust is earned and it's important to base your purchase off a certain level of trust. Don't rush. There will always be animals available.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

great point how many times do people invest in one project only a year later to change thier minds! all large and small breeders would be better off to offer this as a backup!
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www.myspace.com/apabana

THANKS FOR ALL THE ADVICE FELLOW HERPERS!!!