Reptile & Amphibian Forums

and purchased 1.2 Blue Tree Monitors[V. mcraei]. I've set up an outside enclosure 8' x 4' x 6' tall. I don't have elevated retreats yet but will shortly. Although I've bred a few species and had many Tree Monitors I have little experience working with these long term. Anyone who has I would welcome comments, advice, etc. I'm interested in things like diet, clutch size, and how many clutches a year, etc...thanks.....TC

Well seems like you got the first step right! I can tell a sure male on the left and a positive female on the right, as they say obtaining a good pair is the hard part.

Iv kept groups of beccaris because they are the least shy of the prasinus group, and therefore easier to keep.

Most keepers stress them out with excessive moisture or they spray them witch keeps them from progressing.

All the prasinus group are submitted to a dry period and there cycling is triggered by the monsoon, so theirs no need to over do it with moisture.

As for food iv kept 1.3 on insects alone and 1.3 on rodents alone for a full year, the insect group did very poorly so I stopped the experiment on the 10th month.

Tom most Asian arboreal lizards do the mating before the wet season, theirs no way they can scent mark territories in the wet season.

This and parasites are the main reasons why most keepers fail with them.

Cheers!

"there cycling is triggered by the monsoon"

I would enjoy reading how it was determined that it is the monsoon that triggers the breeding season, instead of an increase of food.
Please elaborate

Spermatogenisis is usually triggered by enviromental condtions such as brumation in temperate zone herps. In tropical countries there are really only 2 seasons; wet and dry; thats why the monsoons trigger reproduction.....TC

Tom
Congrats, those 2 look good!
You should give them a good spraying to ensure hydration.
I would spray them down daily, feed them Roaches and mice.
Ad a bunch of logs and branches. Hopefully that foliage behind the enclosure will start growing on the inside of your enclosure.
I think you'll do good with them, what type of bottom is on that enclosure?
Fl. sand would work great for them.
Please keep us posted!
Good luck
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

Mike, they're outside. Our rainy season begins in June and ends in Oct. Believe me theres NO reason to mist them as we'll get almost 60" of rain in that time. My backyard looks like a rainforest.....TC

you have similar temps and cages then my friend in jakarta, he hatched his first macrae 3 years befor the wolf-pack named the specie.
they will do fine for you Tom, no harder then iguanas just diferent diet.
cheers!

How are they with nose rubbing? That mesh seems like it will cheese-grate their faces. Other than that, nice job and good luck. Where in FL are you? Man it has been raining a TON this year...

A ton? This year is turning out to be a half way normal year. I miss those years where it rained every day from late spring to late summer. Every day by 3, you'd see the clouds building. By 5, it would be pouring. These past few years have been very dry. When Florida is dry, it BURNS! I had the pleasure of dealing with that on Mothers day, and the next week after.
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South Central Herpetological

Rubbed noses have more to do with "flight distances" than anything else. I live in Ft Lauderdale.....TC

Can you explain "flight distances"? Not questioning you, just inquiring.

Not saying all animals do. It is more a sign of stress. In my experience over many years, I have seen lizards introduced to a new cage tend to nose rub a little, especially with mesh. Their way of feeling for a way out.

That is wonderful that they aren't. Good job!!! Would love to see them sometime.

Flight distance means the measurement of distance that an animal will let itself be approached before it flees. That means busted noses in Varanids in cages too small. This distance varies from species to species and even upon individuals. How conditioned they are to people and many factors play into this "flight distance". Given proper support most Varanids won't rub their nose raw if their secure. I know when any lizard is secure by observing body language. I have a smaller female not pictured in a 4' x 4' x 2' wide cage that you can approach within 2' without her hiding. The big ones are more skittish for now. Soon they won't be as they adjust to their new surroundings. If you want to understand flight distances try to approach wading birds and you will understand. In other words dion't intrude their space unless you want them to injure themselves attempting to escape.....TC

many clutches are laid annually under great conditions? This I'm very interested in knowing.....TC

Hi Tom, Sorry I could not answer your question from way below, but I was sitting in the corner(banned) for a week or so. I asked a friend to get you my e-mail addy. all you had to do is click on my name, but then, then may have banned that too.

On to the monitors.

The key is making sure you have a actual pair. The prasinus group are very easy to sex. They are so thin, their tailbases are a give away with adults. They are also very easy to palpate, so you can tell when they have eggs(big eggs, skinny lizard) and have up to five or so eggs. I would imagine the really large prasinus have more.

Next would be, how well your monitors bond. This is key. When recieving large numbers of clutches, the pair must not stress eachother at all. Of course, you can recieve one clutch with any pair, but after that its all about support. We have had two females lay 18 clutches in a row. Many species up to 8. We had one female we hatched just lay its 62nd clutch and its still going(wow) not in row hahahahahahahaha.

Which leads to diet, I fed crickets and mice, but this group loves birds and its amazing how large a bird they can take apart. They shred their prey. I once put an adult dove in with a trio of blacktrees, then went back to take it out, as I realized the dove was too big. Well, I went to remove it, but it was gone and there was three fat blacktrees looking very happy.

I had no problem multiclutching this group. And at the time, I did not understand the effects of nesting, as I do now.

Nesting is key. Monitors will hold the eggs until the eggs start to perish inside them. With good nesting, they lay the eggs very very quickly, we have had monitors lay perfect eggs that hatch, every two weeks. Or even medium to large monitors lay once a month. We have had medium sized monitors, gouldi group lay 8 days after breeding. They do not have a set time for gestation, as least until we figure out their nesting better.

Then again, if we do not allow good nesting, we can see prolonged periods between clutches. Or no eggs at all.

Also, nesting outside is much much easier then inside, particularly with larger monitors.

If I were you, I would provide a large hollow log filled with leaflitter or some other natural plant material such as coconut husk and sand mixed. With leaflitter on top of it.

This group is very good at burrowing and have a very unique method. They wiggle a burrow, not dig it. Most monitors dig a hole, then dig and compact the dirt from deeper down. But this group simply sticks their head in the ground and pushes in and expands their body to compact the substrate to form a burrow.

They will make extensive systems like this and have chambers and tunnels that cover many many feet(if allowed)

I am sure if you tend to them like you do other species, you will not have problems once you get past the social side and bonding. I imagine it will be much like some of your other species.

Also, you acquired two, do not think of them as permanet, you may have to try other individuals. We find that with adults monitors, they will pick who they want and at times NOT listen you us. hahahahahahahahahahaha Of course its far better to start with babies, but then, we do not always have that choice.

I wish you luck, because I know you have the skill. Cheers

Thanks FR, I was not aware of their fondnesss for birds. I know any anole that enters the cage is putting his life at risk. I have a slightly smaller female as well but am waiting a bit to introduce her or perhaps obtain another male as I have several of those cages that size. How do multiple males react[I know each is different] in terms of worse scenario or is it best as with Cyclura to have only one male per cage? What about deparasitation? I actually don't with the Iguanas and in fact let the babies eat fecal matter of the parents to infect them intentionally as it aids digestion to have a few worms to break the veggies down. Being outside their likely to be reinfected anyway but the Sun allows for good things regardless. I totaly understand the "bonding issue". That is one of the BIGGEST factors in reproducing Iguanids and Crocdilians and is why most are at best only what I call marginally sucessful. Sorry to ask so many questions....TC

Parasites affect tree monitors in particular, I usually never bother about parasites with any monitor species except the prasinus group.

They have a tendency to remain concealed and not bask as much as other species (overall lower body temperature) they are also easy to stress, the combination of both allows the proliferation of parasites.

Also analysis of feeder insects (cultured) and rodents (cultured) has shown that parasites are resilient in our insect cultures regardless of the precaution we take, most foods we feed them contain loads of parasites, on the other hand parasites are much less resilient in our rodents, seems like the higher body temps don’t favour parasites proliferation in rodents.

These analysis are easy to perform at home with standard microscope and ringer solution.

Parasites are never a problem with heat loving monitors, they are well controlled with normal thermoregulation activities, however newly imported of the prasinus group don’t perform normal thermoregulation behaviour, and when they do! Keepers stress them out with spraying and such.

Ps. I have demonstrated few years ago with uromastyx that no faecal contained parasites, all known parasites die at 40 c and uromastyx regularly bask above these temps.
The eating of faecal are a main source of vitamin E and they contribute and favour a stronger immune system.

Hi Again Tom, your not asking to many questions, your actually asking REAL questions, which is what these forums are for.

I am like you. All varanids should not be treated for parasites. BUT, there are exceptions and those are very much common sense.

With lite bodied reptiles, they do not have the reserves of a heavy bodied reptiles. So they cannot withstand un-natural stresses as well. The thin bodied prasinus group can be OVERPOWERED by parasites much quicker then a similar heavy bodied specie.

So, I do this. I always set them up(all species) get them to progress and measure the progress. If they take off and prosper, I will never ever treat them. If they are reluctant to progress in Known satisfactory conditions, then off to the vet they go to be treated.

I commonly mention, that wild monitors consume parasites with every meal. I say that because it shows that healhy monitors can and do co-exsist with parasites. Also as you mention, there is starting to be a wave of understanding that these parasites also provide a benefit to their host.

The problem is, when these animals are kept in such poor conditions that they become immune suppressed. Which is common with wild caughts. You know what they often experience. Its also common with most captives. They do not die from a particular desease or parasite, they die from a compromised immune system.

My task is to build up their immune system. To me thats easy, give them a reason to live. This is not all that scientific, but people put an animal in a box and then wonder why it dies when the box has nothing to offer the animal. The box does not give the animal any reason to live. It merely encloses the animal, which is reason to NOT live.

The truth is, when given reasons to live, which I call "basic normal life events" monitors are impossible to kill, you actually have to beat them to death(so to speak) Take away their reasons to live and a normal healthy individual will fall over dead.

Even a sorta specialized species like the prasinus group STILL eat everything, they will eat all manner of insects and mammals and birds and fish and crustations(sp)AND Plants and fruit. Which means, they are still very generalized. This goes for behavior as well. They are, as you mentioned, complicate behavioral beasts(social???) They are easy when it comes to conditions, but complicated when it comes to behavior. Easy means, they will easily and without problem pick what they need and from a wide range of conditions. Hard or specialized means, they cannot pick from a wide range and must have a very tight narrow range to prosper.

The key with monitors is, they require different temps for different tasks. Which means they may not use a temp or conditions UNTIL its needed. Then its requires. Which explains lots and lots about captive failures.

Yours being outside, will have that range and where you live you will only have to keep them away from freezing, which is very rare for you. But it happens.

So of the tropical species suffocate when the temps near freezing. And they do not behaviorally understand how to escape freezing. ITs something tropical island/coastal dwellers never had to learn. Cheers

If your animals have a good feeding response and are gaining weight, then I would not treat them for parasites. Sometimes if they are not eating and they are loosing weight, then I would take them to a good reptile vet, but be very careful about who. I think you will do well with them. I would love to see pics of the enclosures when you get them set-up. Good luck. Tyler.

PS. I sent you a PM a while back, I'm not sure if it worked?

FR,

Would that type of nesting substrate and setup work for all the "forest" type monitors including for example Kimberlies and Timors?
Obviously the moisture content the animals may prefer for nesting may vary and proper support would have to be provided.

Also ... I wanted to say that this has proven to be one of the best conversations I have read on this forum in a very long time. Its amazing how much useful information can be obtained when 2 of the pioneers in the hobby talk. Thanks!

Well said. Thanks for elaborating. Is the bottom screened in also?
Do you have any cold weather plans? Lauderdale is a little warmer than Vero, but I still have seen it get to dangerous temps at night in the winter.

cage is screened including the bottom otherwise they would probably have escaped the first day. I intend to put elevated hiding boxes with heating pads that I can lock them in at night during cold nights. In the morning I simply would open the doors so they can bask. Its likely I won't have to put them in the boxes as I believehope they will utilize them naturaly......TC

I think you may have to lock them in on cold nights during winter. I have read countless threads where animals from area that do not experience freezing temperature, such as the tropic, do not know what to do even if a heat source is provided for them. There was a green iguana who wonder outside during a snowy winter day through a small cat door and stayed outside. Luckily the owner found him in time and was able to slowly raise the temperature and the iguana was fine the next day...although it was spazing quite a bit when she was warming it up. On the turtle forum there was a sulcata tortoise that had a house with built in heating pads and insulated wall, but tortoise walked outside anyway when it was snowing and it died!

Maybe my blackthroat is smarter than average or something, cause she finds her heat all the time.
Only once did I have to move her.

The bottom is the same wire but I intend to put several nesting areas with sand, mulch etc. over time..thanks...TC

Sounds good man. There has only been one or two times that I had to drag my blackthroat out of a non-heated hide box and throw her into the heated one. One or two times out of a say 30 dangerously low nights. I find with a hot winter day and a fast cold front drop at night, it leaves them vulnerable to no quite register the cold quickly enough to take a warmer refuge.

I might be in the market if their large enough not to escape from the cage. I intend to give them a varied diet just as I do my Iguanids. I've heard you breed and sell them if not disregard this post and thanks for your advice....TC

Tom
Yes I breed lots of Roaches, however I believe it is illegal to ship to FL.
Mike

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Mike's Monitors!

Thanks anyway Mike....TC

Tom
You could always just clean your palm trees and collect the Palmettos and breed them.
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

Mike, weren't you able to get eggs or a cross from a blue tree /prasinus once? That was cool. I know the wild range of prasinus.. but where do blue trees come from? Later. Todd