Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Proposed New Non-game Regulations in Texas. Comments please.
Here is the link:

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/business/feedback/public_comment/proposals/200808_nongame.phtml

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Thanks for posting this John.

I read the whole thing but it is a little hard to understand because of the legal mumbo jumbo format. It would be nice if an easier to understand version was available. It sounds like they are legalizing captive propagation which is good. However, they are still using the ridiculous Black List. The Black List is horribly flawed and should be abolished. We already have a list that protects species its called the Endangered and Threatened List. I also don't buy their assumptions that these new rules have no economic impact on folks. They have already affected my business. Also the 24 hour import/export notice is a nightmare. So while parts of this maybe good there are still some major issues that need to be re-worked or abolished.

Welker
El Paso

Okay Mike,
I'll agree with what some of the things you said.
Besides the Black List, what changes would YOU make?

Randal Berry

How does the road-hunting ban effect/fit with this? Can overturning the road-hunting ban be incorporated into this issue?

Seems like TP&W may be making an honest effort to address these issues realistically.

A great opportunity for some well thought input from stakeholders.

I'm hopeful.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Unfortunately, the road hunting issue is a seperate issue from these regulations. And since the road ban is specifically mandated by legislation, I believe the legislature is where it will have to be addressed.

I spent some time looking over the proposed changes, and it appears, as far as they go, they are pretty much beneficial to those herpers affected (mainly commercial breeders/dealers).
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Yes. I am aware of that. My understanding was that the ban on road hunting was put in place at the behest of TP&W, for their benefit and for the benefit of the non-game animals they serve and protect.

If the leadership at the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department is truly interested in a comprehensive solution, we might be able to --- maybe, just maybe, we could find a soul or two at TP&W to champion our cause and debunk that fallacious argument/excuse rolled out to justify the road ban.

The road ban is all about limited resources and border security.
Can we work together to find common ground? Lets quit dancing around the issue and get proactive.

Of course it's possible I could be all wrong about this. I just call them like I see them. Gets lonely at times. Oh well.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

You're right-on. The road ban must and WILL be addressed-HCU has all the ducks in a row on that one when the time comes.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

>>You're right-on. The road ban must and WILL be addressed-HCU has all the ducks in a row on that one when the time comes.
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>>Brad Chambers
>>WWW.HCU-TX.ORG
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>>The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

John brought up an often overlooked aspect to the ban - border security. With every facet of LE increased in the region it is clear that border security played at least a small part in the legislation. Now the problem is that resources from every faction of LE are being consumed. Add to this the fact that picking up insects and DOR's from the road surface is legal and soon we will have every facet of LE tired of wasting resources on people who aren't breaking the law.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Joe,
I'm thinking of cooperation and partnering for the common good.
We all want to obey the law and do what we can to eliminate crime. That goes without saying. That's common ground right there.
As Texans, we all want what's best for the plants and animals, geology and artifacts, and all our natural treasures...to protect and to pass on our natural legacy. We are duty-bound. More common ground.
Let's think outside the box for a moment. Consider just these few functions the private sector might adopt to assist and partner with law enforcement -- deputizing in a limited fashion, volunteer fauna census/data collectors, auxiliary wildlife specialists, relocation/rehab persons.
Now consider the current technology available to aid and facilitate such a function -- IFF, GPS, Radio, Cell phone, digital cameras, Onstar, Lowjack devises, etc.
How about the courtesy of registering a flight plan (herping itinerary) with local authorities?
This is just a start. Just a few things that come to mind. Let's start the discussion.
Thanks for listening.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I think that idea is dangerous and while I am open to working with agencies, your also giving away your rights, and I think there are fine arguments that have not been brought to bare that have potential for resolution of the road ban. As far as the verbiage or language the parks and wildlife uses for these laws, why can't they follow some language I mean framing it in such a way that the average person can understand? Arizona laws are very clear in my opinion... Or at least have them consider a revision not of the law but the way it is stated. Could that be done? In other words its not what we say but the way we say it, in this case ambiguities are not a positive thing.....Let your nay be nay and your yea be yea.... Hope I just made sense?

I also am bothered by the captive breeding statement, of which I may nit have read it properly, but don't assume captive breeding is a commercial interest, some people breed certain lizard species and others in order to provide a gene pool for that specie as an alternative. Some for science, some for repatriation programs, some for personal study, and other academic pursuits, often these are gifted and not sold......
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www.phrynosoma.org

Just so everyone understands, we are dealing with two things here...Texas State Laws (as passsed by the Texas Legislature) and the Texas Administrative Code which are regulations adopted by different state agencies....such as TP&W. This latest proposal is to amend the TP&W regulations that are codified in the Texas Administrative Code. Once the agency (TP&W) adopts the changes they become a part of the Texas Administrative Code and carry the same force as law...the only difference being the agency is able to do it themselves without the Legislature having to pass a specific law dealing with it.

My biggest concern with this latest proposal is the fact that their delineation between "commerical" and "recreational" seems to be a bit ambiguous/muddy. It also provides no provision for a recreational user to "gift" an animal to another person. Also, does "non-game wildlife" mean only non-game wildlife native to Texas or does it mean non-game wildlife from anywhere. They seem to use this term interchangably throughout their proposed regs.

Due to their ambiguous use of the term "commerical" coupled with this language taken from their proposed regs:

"(c) It is an offense for any person to take or attempt to take nongame wildlife for purposes of commercial activity from public land or water."

I can see where this could cause some potential problems if we are successful in getting the road-hunting ban repealed next session. If that "law' is repealed by the legislature, I can see where TP&W could possibly use this to continue to prohibit road-hunting. One has to ask one's self if perhaps TP&W expects to see us make a succcessful attempt to get the road-hunting ban overturned this next session and they are including such ambigious language as this in their regs so that they can fall back on them to continue to prohibit road-hunting if the law does get repealed.

I agree with reptoman in that the language is ambigious and unclear in some areas and I feel that it was written that way intentionally. Iwould feel much better if their proposed regs were written in a more straight-forward manner and in language that the common man would have no problem with understanding the actual intent.
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

Gerald-

The ambiguity question is a good point, and one we should all include in our comments. TPW needs to state unambiguously that they do NOT consider ALL nongame "take" commercial!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Ambiguity is easy to deal with since the burden of proof that the commercial part would be on the agency to prove.
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HCU
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

I think this is all good.

My suggestion boils down to having a transponder or some electronic identifying device and a tennative herping itenerary, to at least help the Law know who you are and what you are up to. Make their job a little easier. Don't see anything like that curtailing my rights.

Thank you all for the intelligent discussion.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Gerald well said --these are the areas that need to be looked at. As far as the idea of tracking herpers or me giving my own itinerary's this sounds a little big brother to me, and also TWP doesn't have enough time or people to handle such an idea in my opinion, but they don't need to know what I am doing no matter how legit it is, if indeed the laws are written properly? Why is that no other state I am aware of wrestle with these issues and listen I am a California transplant so maybe my thinking is skewed - but you all think about this. When I came to Texas I found out quickly besides roads and river or stream beds most of the land is fenced off. In California land open to the public everywhere. SO what is being protected here the roads? Unless a rancher o.k.'s your access there are millions and millions of acres of land with every kind of specie in situ and still unaccessible by herpers. So if you think about it, take the Texas Horned Lizard? While it is a endangered specie, no doubt urban sprawl and other issues and some unknowns are contributing to its demise, but I know of rancher properties in Medina County that have extremely healthy populations of THL's. So you might see one on the road every once in awhile, but I guarantee you throughout Texas there are great populations of these lizards. All my research on the Reticulate Collared Lizard with the exception of a few nice ranchers has been done on the roadside?
I hope Joe and others will address the verbiage issue, but while it is not an in alienable right to access land, the disparagement between public access and Ranch land is huge? Also the disparagement between a hobbyist and others are muddied in my opinion by the fact that all like the word "non-game" which could be a raccoon, or an armadillo a lizard or a snake. Why doesn't someone look at the Arizona verbiage. Its clear or pretty clear in my opinion. Why are the laws verbiage mixed in such away that everything seems included under one type of ideology as far as the approach to our wildlife? Here is what I mean with no disrespect to commercials. If there is a commercial aspect to this then conclude language under such, if there is the average Joe or hobbyist or breeder etc, for non-commercial interests then conclude that under that heading? Also what is wrong with the idea of a permit to access roads and herp? Its done in most states and the funds go to management and enforcement. Instead of getting my fishing license, in California I got my reptile permit for one year it was $25.00 and I never had a problem? The verbiage of the California law says you may access these particular reptiles with your permit, anything else you need a special permit (scientific) for endangered or threatened specie. If your a commercial then you need to comply by a commercial permit which has its verbiage inclusive to your need for access?
I think we all need to look closely at the laws as currently set-up and make some changes that are viable for long term future.....
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www.phrynosoma.org

Has anyone considered a working group with the people at TP&W, the ones that propose these rules? I mean, sitting at a table together and hammering out something everyone can live with?
Can TP&W explain the reasoning behind their proposals and enactments. Can they justify the methods?
The concerns put forth here seem valid enough to warrant an explanation or rebuttal from TP&W.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I like the post by reptoman and agree with it. I have suggested most of the same thing to TP&W already. I have also tried to get them to sit down with use in an open type forum face to face to talk about this. So far it has been like pissing in the wind.

The problem is some (not all) in the academic realm have decided to push an agenda that for the most part says that all wild animals belong in the wild and this is were we need to leave them. Some are so extreme thay do not even support zoos having or captive breeding animals. I know because I have read the scientific papers with there opinions and there post on these and PARC forums and more.
So even though more than 90% of the earths life forms have over time become extinct even before man was here, they think mother nature is a loving nurturing entity that supports life. When it is more like life fights to stay here. They run on a complete fairy tail. And even in face of global climate change and development they do not lend any credit to captive breeding animals as a safty net to not only keep animals from going extinct and saving genes from going extinct. Yet they do not have control over development or climate change so why should they get to wreck what I have built?
It is pretty simple to understand that captive breeding makes more animals and therefor if we are making more how would they go extinct and how would this hurt any species? A child should be able to get this.
The real problem is TP&W is only listening to academia and those that are like this in at least some way. The ball is in there court and they feel they do not have to listen to us. So the lets just be nice and talk to them isn't or at least hasn't been working so far. It will take more responcibility on the part of academia and TP&W to get any good done here.
I understand we need to build a bridge with academia to work together with us, but I have been trying and get shut out and down every time.
I was the one attacked by them here and now I am fighting to save my collection and captive breeding project (I keep and breed box turtles). I am not the one burning the bridge and I am not the one that should have to apologize here.
Being so nice doesn't seam to work because they could really care less. Eric

Eric and others--Some of the greatest people I know are in academia, a friend I have recently herped with is an ex educator and great guy--so I am not going to posh all of academia. But that having been said, I as well as many of us on this forum have run into this "academic bias" not just in dealing with someone such as ourselves, but also the teaching and viewpoints. I retired from a University in California and worked there 25 years, and there is a type of environmental teaching that takes place, and there is no room for any other explanation or viewpoint. But let's do correct one thing.. Who says that many of us are not academic in our pursuits? Many of us employ the scientific method, many of us have spent 20 or more years in the field observing and learning about our particular science. Many of us can look at a horned lizard or snake and immediately pick out the subtle nuisances by sight because of familiarity with the species. Many of us have made herpetology or some other field a life advocation, and many herpetologist have never spent much time in the field like the old guys did. I am a lizard man and one of my favorite books is Hobart M. Smith's book, its old but the observations and notes from the old herpers of the day are
awesome and still relevant and informative.

I have a solare horned lizard I have kept in artificial conditions for 6 years, and have bred and kept many other horned lizard for several years at a time while studying them, my colleague and I have kept our current lizards in captivity for over a year when no one has any luck with these lizards, the reason lays in our power of observation in the wild, which afforded us information not previously gleaned by others including experts. The problem is that I believe TWP doesn't believe that empirical evidence for such ideas can be brought to bare. And yes I believe an atmosphere of co-operation between the two sides would indeed come up with an solution that is good for everyone. I appreciate TWP and there management of wildlife of all types, of the people I have met they are good folks and under a lot of pressure with little help to support themselves. The other thing that I believe needs to take place is some of the Herp organizations should look into helping TWP with some of there field work. Case in point--I recently visited the Chapparel Wildlife Management Area, and realized this had been burnt over, I was there looking for pictures of the reticulate Collared lizard, but the fire was severe, they probably need a walk through on some of these properties to determine whats still there and what is viable what are the numbers per acre. Now we could help provide that service? You see I don't think state agencies get us or our value. Many of our people know just as much as their biologists. Last of all--and this does get me and I wish I could find out where this comes from--is there is some assumption whether out front or an assumption that non-academics are somehow commercials, or if I keep a snake or a bunch of lizards that this is some commercial venture or my reasoning for keeping these are commercial. Have I sold a few lizards? Yea but did I recoup the money I spent on raising them to adult hood. Of course not, most of my lizards are gifted or given to some academic pursuit. I have helped zoo's, herpetologists, and all kinds of people. I have written a paper on the ideology of captive breeding for gene pool and a possible program that could be regulated for certain species that are endangered or threated. Repatriation is a possibility with some ranchers and there is a host of things that we could do in conjunction with TWP that all would lend itself to managing our wildlife without us getting into pissing contests over this stuff. I am hoping that Gerald and Joe and others will be able to hopefully sit down at the table with other officials and come together instead of loosing the opportunity for some great and new ideas. See that's the problem---new ideas. They often do not come from academia, actually many of our discoveries in science come from non-academics, new and fresh ideas come from everywhere, academia does not have the only answers--and last of all to be fair here--you got to see that if TWP would sit down with us, they are going against a "tradition" that has afforded many but not all academics from the non-academic community which seemingly has a particular bias, so it would be a big thing for them to go against the grain and actually explore new and creative ways of addressing some of these issues. I pray that someone in a position of power there would at least explore some of these ideas. There are some very capable people out there that could articulate this stuff. I would love to be involved with that meeting....... :0)
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www.phrynosoma.org

I agree with all you said here. I too know and respect many in the academic field. I know and share and get information from many different fields of academia. So it is not that I have a bad biased opinion of all academics.
That being said lets be honest though as well. Not all in academia are as smart as they give themselves credit for. Some are just agenda driven and have forgot science altogether.

I went to a fish hatchery many years ago and a guy that worked for TP&W had found an albino water snake. I tried to get him to give it to me so I could put it into a captive breeding project (I even offered to pay him for it). He refused because he said he was against people that kept and bred reptiles because they exploit the animals for profit. So he gave it to a professor that put it into a pickle jar.
This is a true story, no kidding.
Also recently I met a student that told me there was no need to keep and breed animals in captivity because we can just freeze the DNA to save the genes if they go extinct in the wild. I tried to tell him that even with genetic engineering they can't do it accurately yet. They only recently found out that the chromosome has more than one function. So if they for instance try to make an animal faster and they know exactly which chromosome is responsible for giving the animal speed. They then can put that chromosome into an animal they are producing but the chromosome may just as well also be responsible for making the animal slow. So they could try to produce a fast animal and get a slow one instead or God knows what else. This is why there is just no substitute for producing the animals and the genes in a natural way.
The student ended up calling me stupid and argumentative. Well I want to argue that one but stupid? Really?
It is hard to stay out of a pissing contest when you are getting pissed on.
Florida used to make developers pay for the amount of tortoises they killed when they developed an area. This was done while the tortoises were protected. But darn your hide if you wanted to keep and breed them in captivity. If they had of allowed the private sector to keep and breed them we would not have lost so many genes there. I think it is safe to say we may have lost entire gene pools.

It would help if collages did not turn out so many that were brain washed into a narrow minded agenda way of thinking. Scientist should think on there own and always cross reference and learn from other sciences besides the one they work from only. Information is gathered from the outside of the collage and brought to it for the most part. It is wrong to think once you have gone to collage you know everything and are the higher inelegance so you no longer need to listen to anyone else.
Those in academic fields that do think for themselves or at least try to get brow beat for not worshipping the golden agenda calf and are less likely to get grant money. Which brings me to another thing. They say we are all commercial but they get way more money for what they do than I do and it is our tax money for the most part. So who is commercial? But I know, they think they are pickling the animals or freezing there DNA to make frankenanimals so they are the higher intelligence and are taking ( as I have heard them say) the higher moral road here.

There are many good examples of were academia has worked with herpers in some way. Take the Aruba rattlesnake for instance. There is a plan zoos have come up with that will keep the rattlesnakes out bred for the next 200 years by working with the private sector that also breeds them.
Take the way academia helped bring the crocodilian breeders new blood to keep there stock out bred.
Academia needs to get responsible and do the right thing and bring more of this to the table.
Even while the alligator was protected Texas auctioned off two or so permits to let people hunt and kill them.
Alligators were being bred for meat and hides as well. None of this made them go extinct so why would captive breeding any reptile do it harm? It is pretty obvious it won't.

Captive breeding is a plus for any species even when the private sector does it. But then you have those that do not even want academia to do it. So when you come up against this kind of mentality it is hard to get them to reason with you because there thinking is not really scientific it is agenda based and not reasonable. It does little good to wait until an animal is nearly extinct and has already lost many of the genes the pool once had before you decide to run in and captive breed it like most of academia is doing now. It has to be done before this time to save as many genes as possible.
There was a comment on PARC recently that we need more money to save many of the species even small frogs and others that often get over looked. Because there was a scientific report about some scientist may have found a cure for a disease (I don't know the details) from studying frogs. They said just think if they went extinct and we could have cured cancer or something. Well I say what do you think captive breeding guards against? Captive breeding can act as genetic pools that academia could be taking advantage of.

The idea that we can just make it against the law for people to have reptiles and they will just do OK in the wild on there own is not true. We have lost many gene pools already in several and maybe all States while animals were under such protection. Because development and natural disasters and climate changes still effect those animals and there is not always enough money or time to do anything about it. So again captive breeding makes since and serves a good purpose.

Some of the scientific papers if you really want to call them that are so full of agenda against herpers that some of them contradict others being published or else do not jive with other scientific papers and scientific understanding that already exist.
It is OK to have a theory but when you use your theory to enact laws that hurt captive breeding projects and peoples way of life and happiness I have to draw a line.
I for one am tired of being demonized for keeping and breeding reptiles. I am not a low life criminal type and deserve more respect. Especially from those using my tax money to get a paycheck.
Making everything I do illegal doesn't make me a criminal or low life. If I make it illegal for kids to eat ice cream and one gets caught doing it is he a low life criminal? Or should we just stop making stupid laws that hurt people? They can make any law they want but captive breeding is a good thing. I will not just sit back and let them make laws so they can confiscate the animals and let them die like happens so often while they are in there custody (Oh but if the State kills animals with neglect it is OK, once again we get the they are better off dead than being captive bred mentality). I do not want my animals to end up in pickle jars either. Don't think that some of this has not happened before. I am not saying I think it will this time. But only that I take care of and love my animals and therefor I am the one that is taking the moral high ground. Eric

This is all so good. I can't thank you guys enough.
Something to consider, as it relates to the relationship between Academia and Wildlife Officials -- They both work for the State. They have the same boss. They cooperate with one another to receive the funding they need to function. It is a mutualistic symbiotic relationship. One hand feeds the other. They've got each other's back for their mutual benefit. The wildlife guys gained their credentials from the academic guys. It's an inbred philosophy.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

listen while some of this is absolutely true, I just want to be a little more balanced in my response because I don't have it out for all academics, my comments were only because I and others run into this but indeed there are wonderful people in academia, and also Parks of which I have been afforded respect and therefore, I think my most important comment is that the table should be open for everyone to come and bring evidences instead of words about what ever it is that is the issue. I am sure that the non-academic people can bring good evidences and examples in real life of what is and can be a positive application in management of wildlife. Shouldn't that be the bottom line for all of us?? Theres always a jerk somewhere no matter what the education, and I am not putting everyone under that umbrella because of there lot in life. Certainly an academic has invested himself or herself to get to the point where they are at, so I just want to be clear that while I acknowledge that existence of bias and run into it from time to time, I want to be a bridge builder, and certainly from the other side how many stories could they tell you about unscrupulous people raping an area of its reptile fauna for profit. It does happen. So there are legitimate grips on both sides..I hope that there will be room at the "Inn" for all of us.....One thing about it words should be measured and you can't take back what you say.
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www.phrynosoma.org

As I said I have known a lot of people in the academic realm for a long time that I respect. And yes I would say it is more or less a few bad apples here that I feel are a problem. But then also there are those that do rape and pillage a place of its reptiles. But this is what bag limits and regulations should be for.
As for building a bridge I have been trying, but if they will not sit down with us and listen all of our points are usless and will not be heard.
I have said before and will say it again "My door is open". I will let any of them get to know me and have access to my project so they can see for themselves who I am and what I do.
As for bring the proof, if you mean the scientific papers that I feel show a clear agenda I have lots of it. So much of it that it would take a books worth to sort through.
The problem is that they tend to think they need to extract and interpret data to show only that herpers are bad.
This in part is due to them seeing us as only a bunch of poachers and people exploiting animals for money.
So really the problem is they have a preconceived idea of what we are so then they do not care to hear us out or get to know us.
The way they interpret the data then becomes skewing of science because it gets too biased. There are either other ways the data could have been interpreted that either get left out or else they simply say there opinion is not for of coarse for the agenda and points away from anything else the data could have been interpreted as saying.
I am not saying there is no truth to any of the papers but some are more on point than others and a few I read were just simply outrageous.
It is just strange to me that I can read and get geology and paleontology just fine. Then I read a science paper that says that qoute "In my opinion Terrapen should not be kept in captivity" or the one that said Quote "In my opinion no collection is sustainable". They tend to feel this way about all species though even before a study is done. Terrapene have been collected by Native Americans for as long as Native Americans have been here. Terrapene did not go extinct. Yes they have there so called Iroquois paper were they say the small area West of New York has no box turtles due to over collection by the Iroquois. They say this is proof that collection is not sustainable, but fail to mention the Iroquois lived in a larger home range that stretched from New York to under the Great Lakes and as far South as about North Carolina. Box turtles were used over all of this range and they did not go extinct everywhere the Iroquois lived and used the turtles. Also the fossil record shows that not only Iroquois but all tribes collected and used box turtles over all of the box turtles range. Box turtles have survived several great extintions and yet they paint a picture of a turtle as being so fragile that if I collect only a few (some say even one) that the species will slowly die out.
Now maybe the Iroquois in that one small area did over harvest and the others in other areas did not. But then why after over three hundred years are there still no box turtles there? They said in one paper on Terrapen in the far North Eastern corner there that there was low reproductive raits and they thought it may be because people that had them let there pets go and some could have been from somewhere else and this may have dropped there ability to reproduce. OK, so if we are letting all of these box turtles loose why are there still none in that small area West of New York. Do you suppose they could have missed something that may be important to the survival of this species all because they were too ready to point a smoking gun at herpers to say that collecting reptiles is bad? I worry they may be too feverishly trying to nail us and put us under instead of objectively putting the knowlege of science forward in at least some cases. I am not the only one that has said this even some in the academic field have said so. They have said also that population counts where the turtles have been collected may appear high due to emigrants moving through the area from other places. Well what they are getting at here is that they want to say even if numbers are good were they get collected they really are not good so collecting them is bad anyway even if the population looks good. But then again I have to ask why are the emigrants not moving into or through the are West of New York? My point in all of this is that it is not good science to try to stick knives in herpers backs so often and so quick that they could be and are missing importand true information about what is happening with any species. They just should really be carefull and think that one out more for the sake of the animals they are trying to save. I do think over collection is bad. But low and moderate collection and not doing it always in the same place is OK for most species. There are many more examples and even more I could use to prove my point on this.

Anyway anytime any of them can pick a time and place to start building this bridge I will be there. Eric

I found this post on a forum that had nothing to do with reptile.
I thought it would fit in here somewhere. Eric

If a zombie and a lemming had a kid, it'd look a heck of a lot like the average american citizen. We do as we're told, even if it means following the rest of the crowd over a cliff. Every day, we hear of another invasion of our privacy by another group, and every day we give them another reason to argue that it's NOT an invasion, as we essentially willingly move ourselves into one big glass house. Whose door just happens to lock from the outside...

what's wrong with America right now!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

OK Guys -- here's a couple more ideas as related to the turtle regs...
I. Only trade in baby/juvenile turtles. They say taking the adults is what makes it unsustainable. They say there is no way to tell if captive born or wild caught. Taking hatchlings is sustainable. All you're doing is stealing a predator's meal. A sustainable number still survive, the Wiley ones you and the predators miss.
No trade in adult or near adult would take care of the sustainability problem. 99% of the adults in the trade are wild caught, I'd bet. So, NO ADULTS. No females. Maybe a limited number males.
Just trade in juveniles. Very high probability captive born. Taking w.c. hatchlings (low probability) is sustainable.
II. How about a season and bag limits?
III. If done right, one officer and an administrative assistant could oversee, monitor, audit, and enforce all the documentation and data for the whole she-bang. That's maybe $100K - $150K a year.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

There is a law against the sale of turtles under a certain size.
But then that doesn't really matter here in Texas now since they have said those of use with box turtles can't sale anything at all.
I feel a low bag limit or even a speciel permit per county to collect a low bag limit is sustainable.
If any county was then not in good shape for collection they could just not issue any permits for that county.
The permit could be done so we pay a processing fee that is none refundable even if you do not get it. It should be issued based on the ability of the person to keep that species. The money gathered could be used to regulate and maybe even set aside protected habitat for that species. There would be money from processing fees and then if the permit is issued a permit fee is paid for by the person that gets it. Eric

I have had a commerical licence for several yeara so I could sell my CB 3 -toed BOx to individuals. Which was riduculous in the first place that I would need a commerical licence when I was not taking any from the wild- just selling CB individuals.. Mainly extra males for pets. The last 3 years I have not sold one turtle- things were so "unexplained." I was afraid I would some how break some law.They can send a game warden out and they do not need a search warrent to come in your house. Now they have included all sub species of Carolina as no sell no buy. only 24 can you have. I have many non native Carolina sub species which if they include in the 24 I am going to lose many pets. They did this I believe because the game wardens can not tell one sub species from another so let's make all illegal. this is what I was told by one offical. Everytime you call you get a diffrent answer. It is scary. Christie

Christie,

This is why we need a national herp group that fights for private herper's rights. We need to sick the lawyers on them and make sure things are spelled out crystal clear. We also need lawyers and lobbyists to get bad regs abolished or re-worked.

Until we ALL come together under one flag, put the money and effort into the fight, you can count on more of your rights going bye-bye.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

That's what I'm talking about. Why can't they budget a pilot program with one guy and an administrative assistant to work all this stuff out with the hobbyists and the private sector?
I'll bet they could get all the help they could stand from stakeholders for nothing.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Excellent point John!

Randal

You should get grandfathered in and get to keep all you have. Also they told me they are not going to stop people from keeping what they hatch out.
But then as you said everytime you call or email them you get a different answer.
I hate to say it but we all need lawyers just to get by in life anymore. So much for a free country.
They did not make any rules to acount for people that have been able to do a good job of keeping and breeding box turtles because the so called experts say nobody is doing any good at it for the most part. What will they do when people start to panic and let a bunch of non-indigenous box turtles go in the wild in Texas due to there regulating all of the species and subspecies even non-indigenous? The rules can cause more harm than good as they are over kill and not thought out. It is just agenda pushing fruit cakes that have pushed these laws through by putting pressure on TP&W and maybe even a few fruits from within that are going along with it. Eric