Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Saturday 7/12 I found that a few heads poking through on the first clutch of the year to start hatching. These are Black Gap locality Celaenops.

When I went to “process” the clutch after they had exited the eggs, I was surprised to see the following:

I only noticed one “odd” animal when taking the above picture. It wasn’t until after I had pulled her and several clutch mates out did I find that there was a second unusual animal! I’m assuming these to be anerytheristic, but would appreciate feedback if someone thinks otherwise.

Here is a poor photo of one of the anery’s and a sibling. Note, at the time of the photo, they had been out of the egg less than 24 hrs and have not yet shed.

In all, there are 0.2 anerys, and 3.2 66% PH anerys. The appearance of anerytheristic in these locality animals was a HUGE surprise! No one was aware that the parents were heterozygous.

I’m amazed that this even happened. I did not intend to breed the sire and dam together. I had actually intended to pair her up with a different male, but at the last minute changed my mind. So, I paired her up with another male – an extra that I wasn’t planning to breed in ’08. This was the first year of breeding for both the dam and sire.

The sire:

(No, the photo is NOT enhanced - the only editing was to resize the photo. Yes, his is a very colorful animal!)

The dam:

Know what else? She dropped a second clutch for me on 7/1! I’m looking forward to seeing what’s in the second clutch!!!

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Ophidiarium Charieis

That is truly awsome!!!!!
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

Those girls are smokein. Really awsome Anerys. Hopefully there's a boy in the next clutch. It's always a nice to get a surprise like that in the incubator. Congrats!

That is really awesome! Congratulations. Can you tell if there is any red color left?

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Only time will tell. I don't think there is. It seems all of the "pink" in them is flesh tones showing through the gray. I'll take some pics and post them after they start growing and have shed a few times.

The one adult anery celaenops (a Hobbs County NM locale) has a slight tinge of pink that shows through the gray. Again, it really appears to be flesh tones, not pigment in the skin.

Ryan
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Ophidiarium Charieis

>>Hopefully there's a boy in the next clutch.

Yes, that's crossed my mind a few times! That sure would make things a lot easier than trying to "prove" which males are het. By my 'figerin, I've got a 50% chance of having a male anery in the second clutch (4 eggs, probability indicates there should be 1 in 4 that is anery, and an assumed sex ratio of 50/50).

Of course, there's always next year for producing a male!

Thanks,
Ryan
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Ophidiarium Charieis

Plus you have the father that is for sure het already so don't sweat it man.Just raise those two anery girls up and breed them back to dad silly.

L8r

Oh, I know, but since I already got lucky in the proverbial "lottery", I was just hoping to get the "bonus number" also. Would be nice to have a homozygous male, but I'm tickeled pink to have a heterozygous male.

Ryan
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Ophidiarium Charieis

I wouldn't be surprised if you get one.That would be great man.Good luck I am pulling for you.

L8r

First off that sire is intense! I truly hope they are anerys for you but I've seen some annulata that start off appearing anery and acquire color with each resulting shed. Even turning into very nice, colorful animals -- well in the only case where I've seen the adult fully grown anyhow. Just the same they are truly nice and I hope this isn't the case! Best of luck and great clutch!!

Chris Nickelson

Very cool looking group...is this the first time someone's produced an Anery of this species?

Either way...very cool!

Congrats.

-Rusty

There are anery L.t.celaenops from NM locales. I have a female, but no locality male to go with her.

So, there are a *few* anerys out there, but these are the first from Black Gap locality animals.

I almost wish now that I didn't have the NM anery female. Some might think that I crossed her into the BG animals, but that's not so! There are others that can attest to the fact that I have not had these animals long enough to do so. (Note, as I do not have a NM locality anery male, I did put one of the extra BG males with her in 2007 and produced a few hets, but they won't be ready to breed until 2009.)

I suspect that the parents are siblings. A number of the BG celaenops I have are CH siblings. That they are littermates seems like the most plausible explanation of how I got two hets.

Ryan

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Ophidiarium Charieis

Nicely done Ryan!
There's been a couple anery celaenops pass my radar over the years but they've never resurfaced. You may have a solid breeding group when that second clutch hatches!
Superb looking breeders too......
Jeff
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I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way. - Robert Frost, 1935

Nice work, Ryan! That's a fantastic looking clutch, and the 2 "special" critters make it evern better! Be sure to post more photos post-shed! They're a great line of animals, to boot!

-Cole

Thanks Cole. I'll be sure to get some post-shed photos and comparision shots.

Ryan
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Ophidiarium Charieis

Very Nice! In my opinion those little critters are impressive even without the "bonus".

I understand genetics to some extent but I have a question, and by no means questioning anything about the particular individuals posted here. Just out of curiosity, is the only way to end up with "anery" animals (or any other trait thought to be recessive)for both of the parents to be hets (or homos)? Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this matter.
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Joe

Yes it the simple answer. For a recessive trait to be reproduced you need two heterozygous animals or a homozygous animal in the mix. Technically no in the sense that yeah you could get so lucky as to pop out an anery or lets say an amel in a clutch but the odds of lightning striking that clutch twice are just insane and dually improbable. Exemplified by your project... 'knock on wood' you'll have fun, first-hand experience sorting through all of this!

Chris

Thanks Chris, I look forward to it.

I was just thinking about the mathematical odds, say in Ryan's case, that both parents were hets (unknown)and then paired together to produce these little surprises! Then that made me wonder if there were any other circumstances that could possibly lead to these traits. Amazing!
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Joe

Very nice Ryan. And let me say the adults are outstanding looking. I have a female Hyw. 118 female that looks like your female btw. Your male is a screaming peach too.

It looks like you have a some arnys on your hands, but like you said, you need to let them shed a few time first to see if the colors hold.
Good luck, Ryan.
-Dell

and congratulations!

Jerry Kruse

Thats awesome news Ryan.Good luck with that project man.Are the adults related at al or ? are either one wild caught or are they f1 or?
L8r Shannon

Thanks Shannon.

I need to get together with Ric and see if he can tell me which ones are WC and which ones are CH. I'm betting these two are siblings from a CH clutch. So far as I understand, there are no CB holdbacks in the group of BG animals.

Ryan
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Ophidiarium Charieis

Cool, let us know.I would also say they are probably hypo-e animals and not actual anery animals.Just like Ric's pyro and the hondurans.Anery is much easier to say but the correct term would be hypo erythrystic.

L8r Shannon

p.s. did you get my p.m. on the Hobbs snake?

Hypoerythristic was the first thing to cross my mind. I guess time will give some indication as the animals age.

Never got a pm on the Hobbs snake.

Ryan
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Ophidiarium Charieis

My money would be on full anery -- the lack of red pigmentation is pretty clear. Whaddya say Randolph, let's bet the usual amount? ONE DOLLAR.
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Jerry Kruse

"It's all in the reflexes" -- Jack Burton