Reptile & Amphibian Forums

has anyone or does anyone know of anyone who've done any tests to see if day length affects neonate growth rates. The reason I ask is I let my neonates go to a natural light cycle a week and a half ago; whereas before they were getting a 14 or 15 hour day, now it is less than twelve and it SEEMS they have stopped growing as rapidly, I need to start a weekly measurement routine I know, but was just curious as to any pre existing knowlege. And please do not tell me I shouldnt have them on more than a twelve hour cycle, unless you have good reasons why, lol.

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http://briefcase.yahoo.com/alanvines2002
2.5 Jacksonii Xantholophus (two red phase fem}
35 Jacksonii Xantholophus neonates
0.0.2 Phelsuma M. Grandis
2.3 Anolis C. with 3 neonates
1 neonate texas blue spiny

MY GOD ALAN, 14 hours, WHAT ARE YOU doing, TRYING TIO KILL THEM???!!??

Nah, just kidding. I hate it when people repremand others online, instead of conversing, simply because they don't have to look someone face to face.....but I digress....

I would say anything more than 12 hours is actually bad for them, as they need time to rest and grow. Jacksonii really, REALLY benifit from a temp. drop at night, it slows down their metabolisim, and according to some people I know that have kept thme for long periods, extends their life. Apparantly, this has something to do with their metabolism, if you don't let them sleep, they might have problems, because I would assume that if temperature drops at night are helpful to them, then shortening their sleep period would affect that same metabolic process--see what I'm getting at?

I have no proof, but ift's just an educated guess.

I will tell you that you're doing SOMETHING right. I do not know anyone personally that has has anything better than a 25% mortality rate with those guys.
I would be LESS concerned about growth rates at this point. If, in any way, they are growing faster due to an unaturally long day, there is the possibility for increased chance of MBD.

This reminds me of the discussion on the Adcham yahoo group last month about jacksonii...The experts said that if they were growing fast, and eating well when tiny, they did MUCH better, and grew MUCH bigger as adults(than ones who were not eatng so well).

The fact that Jacksonii benifit from temp drops leads me to think that they would benifit from a full night's sleep. Maybe it is not so much of an issue when they're tiny, I don't know.
No sense in trying to tell you you SHOULDN'T do it next time--you had better reslts than anyone I know. I would just keep the babies at a 12 hour cycle from now on, since they are a little larger, and their bodies may require the rest a little more than they did before.

So Alan, how many hatched total, and how many have you lost? How much have the little guys grown since hatching?
I'm really curious to find out, since I know so many people that have lost whole clutches of jacksonii, and they had no idea why.

I have lost three Eric.
The two red females had 4 and 6. The smaller red miscarried two the day after she arrived, just bags of plasma with a little yellow. They are both very small and I assume it was their first clutch. Their babies are the biggest, a week or two older.
The two green females, which are also young but not as young (I assume) or small as the reds, had 12 and 16. I lost one which was doa and two more when they were a week or so old, one couldn't retract its tongue and the other was just weak and small.They both died during the dryest week we've had. One of the living babies was "dead" but after I dropped it in my palm a few times it started moving and was fine.
"Big Bertha" hasnt had hers yet.
I, in my very limited experience, think this is why they are doing so well: 1-they are outside, lots of fresh air and dappled shade, 2-a NEVERENDING supply of varied WILD food, and 3-misting misting misting. I also think supplementation is something they do not need and I believe it is harmful, although I will use at the first sign of MBD.
This being said, they will probably all die tomorrow, lol.
The reason for the 14 hour days was because I used a light to attract small insects into the cage for two hours at night.
Your point about growing too fast and MBD is exactly why I stopped the extra two hours, so point well taken.
I am embarassed to admit I still have not measured them again after the first time, so all this is purely subjective on my part, I endeavor to get them measured today.
The temps here in Arkansas typically drop 10 degrees at night with corresponding higher humidity as well at night, so that is not a variable really.
I have read SO MUCH on the net about Jackson's care which has turned out to be inaccurate and a little "anal", lol,
and people are so judgemental about techniques, it is a terrible environment for experimentation, except on the Adcham site. If you could would you please recomend me to the "powers that be" on there so I can be a memeber?? I would greatly appreciate it man. By the way thank you so much for your insight and curiosity about my little project in the past and present, you are the greatest, stroke stroke, lol.

>>MY GOD ALAN, 14 hours, WHAT ARE YOU doing, TRYING TIO KILL THEM???!!??
>>
>>Nah, just kidding. I hate it when people repremand others online, instead of conversing, simply because they don't have to look someone face to face.....but I digress....
>>
>>I would say anything more than 12 hours is actually bad for them, as they need time to rest and grow. Jacksonii really, REALLY benifit from a temp. drop at night, it slows down their metabolisim, and according to some people I know that have kept thme for long periods, extends their life. Apparantly, this has something to do with their metabolism, if you don't let them sleep, they might have problems, because I would assume that if temperature drops at night are helpful to them, then shortening their sleep period would affect that same metabolic process--see what I'm getting at?
>>
>>I have no proof, but ift's just an educated guess.
>>
>>I will tell you that you're doing SOMETHING right. I do not know anyone personally that has has anything better than a 25% mortality rate with those guys.
>>I would be LESS concerned about growth rates at this point. If, in any way, they are growing faster due to an unaturally long day, there is the possibility for increased chance of MBD.
>>
>>This reminds me of the discussion on the Adcham yahoo group last month about jacksonii...The experts said that if they were growing fast, and eating well when tiny, they did MUCH better, and grew MUCH bigger as adults(than ones who were not eatng so well).
>>
>>
>>The fact that Jacksonii benifit from temp drops leads me to think that they would benifit from a full night's sleep. Maybe it is not so much of an issue when they're tiny, I don't know.
>>No sense in trying to tell you you SHOULDN'T do it next time--you had better reslts than anyone I know. I would just keep the babies at a 12 hour cycle from now on, since they are a little larger, and their bodies may require the rest a little more than they did before.
>>
>>So Alan, how many hatched total, and how many have you lost? How much have the little guys grown since hatching?
>>I'm really curious to find out, since I know so many people that have lost whole clutches of jacksonii, and they had no idea why.

-----
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/alanvines2002
2.5 Jacksonii Xantholophus (two red phase fem}
35 Jacksonii Xantholophus neonates
0.0.2 Phelsuma M. Grandis
2.3 Anolis C. with 3 neonates
1 neonate texas blue spiny

Alan-

I would look at the sun rise / sun set times in Hawaii. This would give you the best answer on how many hours. Now if you are supplementing with artificial light, since it comes no where close to natural, I would never use more then 12 hours. I have noticed no matter how many hours of light you provide, when the chameleon is tired it will find a dark spot in the cage and sleep. The extra photo periods add up, and the little ones will dehydrate much faster then the adults. All this added stress will lead to health problems. We all know, chameleons are great at masking health problems. Good luck with all of them! Hope this helps!
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John @ Chameleon Paradise
1.1 Ambilobe Panthers
1.1 Nosy Be Panthers
1.1 Sambava Panthers
1.2 Rhampholeon uluguruensis